Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Brian Patrick Wade wrote:
Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.

I know, Sky scared me too!   Truth is that you can get great pictures regardless of who is or is not paying for them.  Sometimes my TFP work is better than my paid, but don't tell anyone please!  LOL   Heck, even the top photographers in the World do "testing" sometimes.

Brian Patrick Wade wrote:

Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.

Brian Patrick Wade wrote:

Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.

AHHHHH!!! hahahaha! Thats what I said in the quote a few lines above. That notion that if you do tfp work you suck is soooo fucking off, and stupid, and completely not true. I mean yeah some are doing tfp cuz they're new and need practice, but thats not true of the phtographers i kno and will be working with. lol. And by the way I saw your images and you rock. If you ever come out to Atlanta Id love to work with you!

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Tony, you and I are on the same page most of the time.  Languages can be hell sometimes ... even English can be hard for native speakers of it.  For some reason, I sensed right away that she was not born in the USA, and I was right.  I think it was her choice of words.

Now this is maybe how I might say it! 

Hey friends on Model Mayhem, I've put out a travel notice giving the details of my trip and what I require.  It's frustrating as all hell, but most of what I've been getting are TFP requested from models (or photographers) who don't read the details or choose to ignore that I require pay.  You know it costs me "bank" to come to your town, so "TFP" isn't going to happen!  Any ideas on how to deal with this?

So what do you think?

Her original post would've been fine if she'd left off the "grace" line 

Brian Patrick Wade wrote:

Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.

I suck too I suck too!!!  I guess the funny and sad thing is with models who have Paid only, They still shoot tfp with me.  But I guess I am still in the "you suck" catigory.

Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Brian Patrick Wade wrote:
Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.

Yeah, me too.  18 years of experience, thousands of $s in equipment, hundreds of hours of classes & training, time as a college TA and a high school instructor in the subject, and it turns out I probably suck 

SLE Photography wrote:

Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Yeah, me too.  18 years of experience, thousands of $s in equipment, hundreds of hours of classes & training, time as a college TA and a high school instructor in the subject, and it turns out I probably suck 

Hey guys.  Lets start the sucky photog group

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
If you ever come out to Atlanta Id love to work with you!

Oh, is that where Kennesaw is near?
I come to Atlanta a few times a year & am HOPING to start shooting catalogue for a custom clothier up there, maybe we can work out a shoot if you don't get down to O-Town 

Sky Above wrote:
Alex, I think Nerlande has a very good point about the quality of images you have. You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.  You need to have much much better images in your port before you can ask and expect to get response for paid work. 

So not getting a response to pay you is not saying you are not beautiful, because you are. What it is saying is that your port still has a long way to go and you don't have the experience yet.  Find a really great photographer, pay his fee, get the images you will need to finally have a good book and then I am sure asking for pay will never be an issue.


There have been scores of models who have started fantastic books from TFP.
Cindy Crawford in Chicago did it with both Bob Frame and Skrebneski.  If a
good shooter likes your look he/she will shoot you, period.  Paying or not paying
doesn't mean much as well as good or bad photography is also a judgment
call and based on the often great comments I read about really bad shots tells
me that many models are clueless about what makes a good image. 
JMO

Sky Above wrote:
Alex, I think Nerlande has a very good point about the quality of images you have. You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.  You need to have much much better images in your port before you can ask and expect to get response for paid work. 

So not getting a response to pay you is not saying you are not beautiful, because you are. What it is saying is that your port still has a long way to go and you don't have the experience yet.  Find a really great photographer, pay his fee, get the images you will need to finally have a good book and then I am sure asking for pay will never be an issue.


There have been scores of models who have started fantastic books from TFP.
Cindy Crawford in Chicago did it with both Bob Frame and Skrebneski.  If a
good shooter likes your look he/she will shoot you, period.  Paying or not paying
doesn't mean much as well as good or bad photography is also a judgment
call and based on the often great comments I read about really bad shots tells
me that many models are clueless about what makes a good image. 
JMO

To the OP:
I'd echo what's said above and add: You might want to ratchet down the (unjustified IMO) arrogance a bit....

John

TMShots Photo wrote:

Hey guys.  Lets start the sucky photog group

Yeah lets call it it the sucky photog and models who love them group :-D

SLE Photography wrote:

Oh, is that where Kennesaw is near?
I come to Atlanta a few times a year & am HOPING to start shooting catalogue for a custom clothier up there, maybe we can work out a shoot if you don't get down to O-Town 

yeah im 25 minutes from atlanta. if your in atlanta just take 75 north for about 15 minutes and when you get off its 10 mins after that.

Pretty_Dollface wrote:

Yeah lets call it it the sucky photog and models who love them group :-D

Haha! Love it!!

Tony Lawrence wrote:

make sure that when you quote you dont put what you have to say inside the quote. The last paragraph is what you said and should be outside that box.

SLE Photography wrote:
Her original post would've been fine if she'd left off the "grace" line 

Well, that word doesn't bother me at all.  Some models I am honored to shoot, and a few I have to be paid!  LOL   Her look is such that I would say she'd be gracing my portfolio.  Not for everyone though.

TMShots Photo wrote:

Haha! Love it!!

And I love your avatar. Im gunna go loko at your port.

Pretty_Dollface wrote:

make sure that when you quote you dont put what you have to say inside the quote. The last paragraph is what you said and should be outside that box.

Yep, just noticed that.  Thanks.

Incident Image wrote:
lmao what a funny thread... models wanting to get paid for portfolio work...

Chad, you have excellent pictures in your profile here!  You cannot convince me that you don't pay your models.  OK, so the agencies pay them, but still ...  if you are a great photographer, it does not matter.   There is nothing wrong or even funny about a model with the level of experience that Alex has getting paid while she is traveling.

PS: Please edit your "hahaha's" because that is just plain obnoxious!

Alex C wrote:
In my current MM port, I was paid for 7 of the shots.

Just because someone else is willing to pay you, doesn't mean its the kind of work that will attract other paying customers.

Alex C wrote:
Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?

yes

Alex C wrote:
Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay? Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?

It means they like you enough to want to work w/ you as a TFP shoot but not enough not hire you.

A simple reminder of a "paid work only" should suffice citing whatever reasons you deem necessary. If it persists, then a "no thanks." If they don't like it, that's their business.

Vance wrote:
"Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay?
Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?"


Well, from a busines point of view I took a look at the portfolio
and my answer would be no.

This model is not a potential paid model for any of my clients of in house projects.

I think she speaks with the vigor of youth and thats OK, I would be a little more tactful but thats me.


The Mayhem continues.....

OK, so you have a healthy ego about your work as a photographer.
That is fine. But it does not mean that other photographers,
including myself ... wouldn't hire her.

Looking at the profile of one of the first models to laugh at her,
I'd hire the OP over her ... so don't laugh so hard.

Again, it's shoking how many of you take one word in her first post,
and read so much into it!

Jay Bowman wrote:
Totally off the subject, but I really hate having to scroll left-to-right to read everyone's posts...

Jay, it bothers me too, but intill Incident is kind enough to edit his post ...

we are stuck with this.... which is rude of him.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Just because someone else is willing to pay you, doesn't mean its the kind of work that will attract other paying customers.

True, but the OP was commenting about posting a travel
notice in OMP, which is not as great a website as this one is.
She was irritated by the requests for TFP which only proves
that many photographers don't read or don't care. 
I am willing to pay her if she travels to California.
I take pride in paying models!
It means that I'm making money from their pictures!

Incident Image wrote:
lmao what a funny thread... models wanting to get paid for portfolio work...  hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha

It is wrong to a photographer to charge for portfolio work as well? When I started out I paid photographers even today if I want some specific shots, I would pay. I dont see nothing wrong with a beginner photographer or model paying to build their portfolios and nothing wrong with professional experienced photographers/models charging to do portfolio work.

Farenell Photography wrote:

It means they like you enough to want to work w/ you as a TFP shoot but not enough not hire you.

A simple reminder of a "paid work only" should suffice citing whatever reasons you deem necessary. If it persists, then a "no thanks." If they don't like it, that's their business.

She said that she posted "Paid Only" on the travel notice.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I think its a good bet that nobody posting to this thread would hire the OP and
thats kind of my point.  In any bussiness you want to attract customers not
piss them off or scare them away.  Remember that old saying, 'You attract
more flies with honey then with vinegar.' I'm not saying phtographers are flies
but I think the meaning is clear.

Tony, that is a great saying!

I would hire her, and I'd say there are some others here that would hire her too.
Many times I have hired or worked with a model that some photographers claimed
had a reputation for a bad attitude, and I found it not to be true at all.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think many here understand that the OP is
not originally from the USA.  That has a lot to do with the words she choose
to use.  She has a great look, she is 19 years young, and she is a trained dancer.
I started out photographing belly dancers and know a thing or two about it.
The video of her on her MySpace shows her belly dancing, and I think she has
had moderate training in it. Until you can do belly rolls, you don't impress me!  LOL

Giuliana de Rossi wrote:
It is wrong to a photographer to charge for portfolio work as well? When I started out I paid photographers even today if I want some specific shots, I would pay. I dont see nothing wrong with a beginner photographer or model paying to build their portfolios and nothing wrong with professional experienced photographers/models charging to do portfolio work.

If you traveled to me, I'd pay you too!  The origianl message was about
her frustration at posting a travel notice with the words "for pay only" in
the area she was traveling to.  Heck, I would want to be paid too if I travel
to you!  The who should pay who thing has been beaten to death by big
egos of both photographers adn models.  I'm thrilled when I get such great
images that I can pay the model!  I even brag about how much I've paid
models before. AND I've also gotten paid by models many times too! That is
also FUN!  AND TFP is something that I do also!  If it is a mutual desire to
work together, then why not? Everything is negotiable!

But to post a message stating that you are traveling to another State,
and that you are looking for "Paid Work" only to get a bunch of TFP requests,
you'd be frustrated too!

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I take pride in paying models!

Hence why I added in a different posting, "It means they like you enough to want to work w/ you as a TFP shoot but not enough not hire you."

& why I also wrote "A simple reminder of a "paid work only" should suffice citing whatever reasons you deem necessary."

But is it about having pride in paying models? The photographer is more than welcome to try & convince a model that he's good enough to do a TFP w/ her. Its always going to be a "no" unless you try. Just like the model is more than welcome to say, "No thanks."

Bryan Benoit wrote:

never say no to good advice... even if you did not ask for it.

I think I'll print that out and keep it next to me at work.

Neiko Roman wrote:
It's the same thing when you state on your profile that you are not offering any TFP yet you get hit by a lot of models asking for TFP. Welcome to the internet. Where most people don't read or just chose to ignore.

And where most people don't say what they mean...especially in the realms of TFP and Nudity. I've had MANY models doing both for me who state on their profile they do neither. But then that is there often times to ward off the GWCs. On a photographer's site a lot of people thinks it makes them more professional or desirable I guess.
Mike

Alex C wrote:
I am kind of irritated. I posted a travel notice for Detroit stating that I am looking for any paid projects not involving nudity. I get back 4 replies all saying something along the lines of "I'm up for TFP to build my portfolio." Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay? Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?

It sounds like your focus is on the $$$.  To clarify a couple of questions may be in order... are you targeting the right market in your area in order to be paid?  From your portfolio you seem to want to focus on clothed glamour work.  How big a market in your area is that (i.e. clothed glamour)? 

You may want to consider that just because you are an attractive young lady you are not doing the world favors by wanting to model.  Photographers are not your clients unless you want to target "recreational" shooters who work within your limitations and are willing to pay you for that.  Otherwise you may want to reconsider your limitations or do something else.

Alex C wrote:
As to how many photographers I have paid, the count stand at 1.

But you would have a stronger port and be more marketeable maybe if you had more.

-Jose

Alex C wrote:
Well, I apologize. I am posting here to voice my concerns/feelings/questions. That is why I post. If photographers do not like it, they don't have to work with me. It's as easy as that.

Yes like you said it is as easy as that.  Sounds like a severe case of PGS.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Tony, that is a great saying!

I would hire her, and I'd say there are some others here that would hire her too.
Many times I have hired or worked with a model that some photographers claimed
had a reputation for a bad attitude, and I found it not to be true at all.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think many here understand that the OP is
not originally from the USA.  That has a lot to do with the words she choose
to use.  She has a great look, she is 19 years young, and she is a trained dancer.
I started out photographing belly dancers and know a thing or two about it.
The video of her on her MySpace shows her belly dancing, and I think she has
had moderate training in it. Until you can do belly rolls, you don't impress me!  LOL