SLE Photography wrote:

There's blunt, and then there's rude & arrogant.  Calling yourself one does not excuse the other.

I agree with this statement wholeheartidly. **Look up** I think I was pretty blunt without being rude or arrogant....it is possible folks!!

Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Oh damn, I must not be any good 

Doug Swinskey wrote:
well i guess im departing from every one here,

but this girl placed a travel notice for paid work..what she got was TFP requests...

so my thought, if you dont want to hire her..

dont respond...

its real easy...

she has every right to get tired of photographers not bothering to read her posting...and everyone here would be the same way...i know i get tired of the TFP requests from amatuers...

Her original post was fine...until her last line. That's what started it (plus the reply to it and her retort). We (et al) tried to explain why that probably happened (example: a photog in the area she was heading to figured he'd ask since she's going to be in the area anyway so there would be no (additional) cost to her (model).)

Vito wrote:
She also said:
"Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay? Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?"

That last line is what triggered the backlash. As each person replied, she dug herself deeper and deeper in by trying to get the last word in.

Exactly.
People, this is the internet.  When the parties you're addressing can't see your face or hear tone & inflection, they casn only go by your words.  Take a minute, step back, read your words objectively, and ask "Is this really how I want to portray myself?"
If you say "Yes" and post it and a lot of reasonable people point out it makes you sound bad, maybe you should reconsider your standards of how you represent yourself.

Vito wrote:

Her original post was fine...until her last line. That's what started it (plus the reply to it and her retort). We (et al) tried to explain why that probably happened (example: a photog in the area she was heading to figured he'd ask since she's going to be in the area anyway so there would be no (additional) cost to her (model).)

to many pages...thanks for the condensed...

Doug Swinskey wrote:
well i guess im departing from every one here,

but this girl placed a travel notice for paid work..what she got was TFP requests...

so my thought, if you dont want to hire her..

dont respond...

its real easy...

she has every right to get tired of photographers not bothering to read her posting...and everyone here would be the same way...i know i get tired of the TFP requests from amatuers...

Doug, I have no problem with that part.  What got under my skin was the "Grace your portfolio" bit.  When a few people tried to call her on the arrogance & attitude she responded with cluelessness and more attitude.
That's what set most of us off.

SLE Photography wrote:
There's blunt, and then there's rude & arrogant.  Calling yourself one does not excuse the other.

Michael Kirst wrote:
I agree with this statement wholeheartidly. **Look up** I think I was pretty blunt without being rude or arrogant....it is possible folks!!

Yep, you did a good job.
I'm usually FAR too sarcastic, caustic, and snippy in addition to being blunt 

Julie-Michelle wrote:
WhoTF= Who the F!@#

Yup, that's it!

Studio36

Alex C wrote:
I am kind of irritated. I posted a travel notice for Detroit stating that I am looking for any paid projects not involving nudity. I get back 4 replies all saying something along the lines of "I'm up for TFP to build my portfolio." Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay? Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?

Alex, If you were traveling to California, I would most certainly pay you! I have checked out your profile here, and also your profile on MySpace.  I'm embarrassed by some of what these models and even photographers are sarcastically writing you.  It's as if they think that if they travel that they shouldn't get paid themselves.  I shoot mostly lingerie, bikini, and implied work that is NOT nude.   So if I have no problem paying a model of your experience, then I am sure there are others out there too. 

What these people are saying is that most of those using the Internet here and on OMP do not pay much attention to what others write, and/or they are hoping that you would be willing to make an exception with them.  So my attitude is that it's not worth getting irritated over other peoples lack of consideration to read your travel notice carefully.  It's going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it.  There are people here who are so sure they know you and what you are like that they will make a quick judgement! 

Stay positive!  Don't let others get you down!  Best wishes!

Adrienne Aurora wrote:
That was entertaining.
Maybe she gets so many paid shoots because there's a lack of...erm...talent in Indiana.

Ohhhhh....  now that was funny, harsh, but funny...

Patrick Walberg wrote:
What these people are saying is that most of those using the Internet here and on OMP do not pay much attention to what others write, and/or they are hoping that you would be willing to make an exception with them.  So my attitude is that it's not worth getting irritated over other peoples lack of consideration to read your travel notice carefully.  It's going to happen and there is nothing you can do about it.  There are people here who are so sure they know you and what you are like that they will make a quick judgement! 

Stay positive!  Don't let others get you down!  Best wishes!

Actually we're saying we DO pay attention to what she wrote, and the negative attitude she conveyed.
She's perfectly within her rights to refuse TFP requests when she's specified paid jobs.
But coming across as an arrogant diva does her a great disservice.

SLE Photography wrote:

Actually we're saying we DO pay attention to what she wrote, and the negative attitude she conveyed.
She's perfectly within her rights to refuse TFP requests when she's specified paid jobs.
But coming across as an arrogant diva does her a great disservice.

that's putting it mildly...

VirtuaMike wrote:
You have a right to ask to ask for paid work, just as photographers have a right to ask for TFP. If your demands and their requests aren't matching up, then you need to reconsider the value of your presence.

Hey Mike, Travel is expensive.  I am happy to shoot with models either with them paying me, me paying them or TFP depending on circumstances like what the pictures are going to be used for, and how far any of us must travel.

You are right, negotiation is important.  A person does need to consider the value of their images and go from there.  She is irritated that the photographers are not reading her travel notice carefully or considering that it doesn't hurt to ask about TFP because so many do it.

Alex C wrote:

Hey Dollface, I completely agree with you.. as I was trying to explain before I am not saying I am too good for TFP jeeze the last shoot that I did 2 weeks ago was TFP. And it is definitely not all about the money, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't love it! My port has many TFP shoots on it, and I appreciate and recognize the talent of the photographers that helped me and continue to do so.
        I just feel that everyone in this forum got to see my defensive side and not any of my other qualities. I have become so defensive actually because of all the incessant offers I have gotten for nude work when it clearly states in my portfolio that I do not do nude. I have no nude pictures in my portfolio. There are 2 sheer pieces, one which I decided to do with my own lingerie and another which was done for a paid swimsuit catalog.

Yeah and thats what sux. People dont get an accurate view of who you truely are when you're on the defense, which i'm sure is lighthearted, outgoing, and fun. Its really hard to be misunderstood. Sometimes when your words dont come out how you mean them, it opens a pandora's box of backlash. And yeah it's really annoying when you state something specific and people disreguard it. But as a person of this industry it sort of comes with the territory. Weather its photographers or models or stylists, people will always hope there's a chance you'll change your mind and consider doing something you've stated that you dont. Its just something to get used to. I get it all the time but ya know. Its no biggie.

SLE Photography wrote:

Actually we're saying we DO pay attention to what she wrote, and the negative attitude she conveyed.
She's perfectly within her rights to refuse TFP requests when she's specified paid jobs.
But coming across as an arrogant diva does her a great disservice.

You and I differ in opinion of what is a negative attitude.  She did not say that she refuses to work with any of these photographers, only that she is irritated with the constant requests for TFP when she is traveling.  If I travel to you, I would expect to get paid work too.  I do not see her few postings here as enough to make a judgement of her as "coming accross as an arrogant diva!"  Your words!  In fact, she has not called you a name as of yet, has she?  Are we a bunch of kids here?

Sky Above wrote:
Alex, I think Nerlande has a very good point about the quality of images you have. You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are....
JMO

I would hate to seem ruse or absasive but that's a little bit of a load of bullshit dude. I am actually speaking with a very talented photographer who has great work. They are well well well experianced. I inquired about TFP idea i had for a shoot, because they didnt have anything about doing TFP on their profile. They said they usually dont but if I had a good idea that would be beneficial to both our portfolios then they would. I pitched it and they agreed. And there are still other gifted, professional, and experianced photographers out there who do TFP as well as paid.

David Davis wrote:
I have to admit this one of the best forums I have ever read.  I have never seen someone dig should a deep hole

David

I was in that!

SLE Photography wrote:
She can't be marketing to GWCs or she would do nudes.

Well, she says she has 7 paid shoots on her profile (of only 10 photographers listed on her profile), so it would appear that's who she is marketing to.  Whether in the long term it will be very successful or not is another matter.

Pretty_Dollface wrote:

Yeah and thats what sux. People dont get an accurate view of who you truely are when you're on the defense, which i'm sure is lighthearted, outgoing, and fun. Its really hard to be misunderstood. Sometimes when your words dont come out how you mean them, it opens a pandora's box of backlash. And yeah it's really annoying when you state something specific and people disreguard it. But as a person of this industry it sort of comes with the territory. Weather its photographers or models or stylists, people will always hope there's a chance you'll change your mind and consider doing something you've stated that you dont. Its just something to get used to. I get it all the time but ya know. Its no biggie.

I don't even know you, but I love you Dollface!

How many of us are aware that Alex is not native to this country, and that there maybe misunderstandings to the words she chose to write and our responses? 

I know there has got to be other patient and understanding photographers here besides myself?  Seriously, it is worth it.

David Maki wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathe*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathe*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathe*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*breathe*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


i want to get paid too

David, we all would like to get paid.  As I said before, if a model like Alex were traveling to my town, I would pay her.  It would be better to not say anything if you don't understand that traveling is expensive.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
You and I differ in opinion of what is a negative attitude.  She did not say that she refuses to work with any of these photographers, only that she is irritated with the constant requests for TFP when she is traveling.  If I travel to you, I would expect to get paid work too.  I do not see her few postings here as enough to make a judgement of her as "coming accross as an arrogant diva!"  Your words!  In fact, she has not called you a name as of yet, has she?  Are we a bunch of kids here?

I didn't say she IS an arrogant diva, I said she's PRESENTING herself that way.
If she'd put up her original post and left off the line about "gracing your portfolio" I, and most of the other posters, wouldn't have had anything to say.

Sky Above wrote:
Alex, I think Nerlande has a very good point about the quality of images you have. You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are....
JMO

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
I would hate to seem ruse or absasive but that's a little bit of a load of bullshit dude. I am actually speaking with a very talented photographer who has great work. They are well well well experianced. I inquired about TFP idea i had for a shoot, because they didnt have anything about doing TFP on their profile. They said they usually dont but if I had a good idea that would be beneficial to both our portfolios then they would. I pitched it and they agreed. And there are still other gifted, professional, and experianced photographers out there who do TFP as well as paid.

Sky's not a dude 

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I don't even know you, but I love you Dollface!

How many of us are aware that Alex is not native to this country, and that there maybe misunderstandings to the words she chose to write and our responses? 

I know there has got to be other patient and understanding photographers here besides myself?  Seriously, it is worth it.

And when a few people tried to politely point out that the words she chose represented her badly, she reacted in a negative fashion that furthered their poor impressions of her.
So it might not be us that need the lessons in patience and understanding.

Sky Above wrote:
Alex, I think Nerlande has a very good point about the quality of images you have. You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are....
JMO

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
I would hate to seem ruse or absasive but that's a little bit of a load of bullshit dude. I am actually speaking with a very talented photographer who has great work. They are well well well experianced. I inquired about TFP idea i had for a shoot, because they didnt have anything about doing TFP on their profile. They said they usually dont but if I had a good idea that would be beneficial to both our portfolios then they would. I pitched it and they agreed. And there are still other gifted, professional, and experianced photographers out there who do TFP as well as paid.

I agree with you!    As I said before, it depends on what the pictures are for.  If a model needs the photos, and I don't, then she pays.  If I want to use the photos for my websites, then I pay. If we live in the same town, and just want to share the images, then TFP is fine.   Why is it such a big problem to pay a model when she travels to you?

Oh, and her current pictures are not bad at all!  It's more than enough to make a choice as to working with her or not.

Alex C wrote:
I am kind of irritated. I posted a travel notice for Detroit stating that I am looking for any paid projects not involving nudity. I get back 4 replies all saying something along the lines of "I'm up for TFP to build my portfolio." Do people not think I'm worth enough to pay? Do they think I will grace their portfolios for free?

These models here all think they are too good for a test. TFP. Whatever you will call it. The ones who accept have alot of great pictures and are getting paid work as well.(part time)

Just because you have pictures doesn't mean you don't need more, and just because someone offers you a TFP doesn't mean they are beneath you. (likely they see something in you ) Be thankful you are interesting enough to get offered a TFP.

SLE Photography wrote:

I didn't say she IS an arrogant diva, I said she's PRESENTING herself that way.
If she'd put up her original post and left off the line about "gracing your portfolio" I, and most of the other posters, wouldn't have had anything to say.

I NEVER said that you called her anything.  I said that you were making a judgement and quoted your words exactly.  She is not a native to this country, and maybe English is not her first language?

SLE Photography wrote:
And when a few people tried to politely point out that the words she chose represented her badly, she reacted in a negative fashion that furthered their poor impressions of her.
So it might not be us that need the lessons in patience and understanding.

No, Alex did not attack anyone here.  The responses to her were sarcastic as if she should not even question or be the least bit bothered by "TFP" requests when she is traveling.  I see both sides of this issue, and I see no reason to make harsh judgements of her.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

I don't even know you, but I love you Dollface!

How many of us are aware that Alex is not native to this country, and that there maybe misunderstandings to the words she chose to write and our responses? 

I know there has got to be other patient and understanding photographers here besides myself?  Seriously, it is worth it.

Lol well thank you!!! Yeah I dunno. Its just not that big of a deal to me.People take things way too seriously sometimes. But I understand how others think she's coming off as arrogent or picky and stuff because some of the things she's said has made it seem like that, but I know that's not what shes really trying to say. Its hard when you get tangled in your words and mix them up and you ended up saying something you didnt mean to and its taken out of context, and you wind up in a hole. You wanna pull out your hair and go "Ahhh, but I didnt mean it like that." Dont get me wrong I can be a superbitch and bury someone when they are wrong and deserve it. hehe :-) Any because you cant get an accurate portrayal of someone when they are on the defense you gotta kinda let it slide. I saw her OMP and she really does have some really good work.

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
Lol well thank you!!! Yeah I dunno. Its just not that big of a deal to me.People take things way too seriously sometimes. But I understand how others think she's coming off as arrogent or picky and stuff because some of the things she's said has made it seem like that, but I know that's not what shes really trying to say. Its hard when you get tangled in your words and mix them up and you ended up saying something you didnt mean to and its taken out of context, and you wind up in a hole. You wanna pull out your hair and go "Ahhh, but I didnt mean it like that." Dont get me wrong I can be a superbitch and bury someone when they are wrong and deserve it. hehe :-) Any because you cant get an accurate portrayal of someone when they are on the defense you gotta kinda let it slide. I saw her omp and she really does have some really good work.

uhp uhp uhp.....

SLE Photography wrote:

And when a few people tried to politely point out that the words she chose represented her badly, she reacted in a negative fashion that furthered their poor impressions of her.
So it might not be us that need the lessons in patience and understanding.

I agree with that as well.  but everyone knows what its like when you feel like people are coming at you ready to burn you at the stake. I 'm not saying thats what anyone here is trying to do...but when you feel like people are ganging up on you you get frustrated and go on the defense and block out what ppl are saying.

Nerlande wrote:
uhp uhp uhp.....

hence the "hehe" and the smile. i wasnt being serious.

Nerlande wrote:
uhp uhp uhp.....

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
hence the "hehe" and the smile. i wasnt being serious.

Neither was I. We all know who that crown belongs to.

Pretty_Dollface wrote:
I agree with that as well.  but everyone knows what its like when you feel like people are coming at you ready to burn you at the stake. I 'm not saying thats what anyone here is trying to do...but when you feel like people are ganging up on you you get frustrated and go on the defense and block out what ppl are saying.

This's true.  She was just so clueless that people thought she was out there somewhere and they started responding even more negatively.
It's a vicious spiral.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Wow, well that was fun.  I think the OP has every right to ask for $$$ and also
to be a bit pissed that she's being offered TFP but its all about how you handle
things.  As we all can see its not just about being attractive but being easy
going and kind.  If you get a offer that isn't for you be gracious and friendly but
say no.  That TFP offer may even change to payment.  You never know. 
Tx, mentioned it but effective marketing is almost as important as a models look
this being net models.  I'm not speaking agency models.  If you are easy to deal
with then people will suggest you to others.  I'm not saying the OP isn't nice but
her tone and words seem to say, I'm mean and difficult and who needs that.
Keep it light and brezzy.

Tony, you and I are on the same page most of the time.  Languages can be hell sometimes ... even English can be hard for native speakers of it.  For some reason, I sensed right away that she was not born in the USA, and I was right.  I think it was her choice of words.

Now this is maybe how I might say it! 

Hey friends on Model Mayhem, I've put out a travel notice giving the details of my trip and what I require.  It's frustrating as all hell, but most of what I've been getting are TFP requested from models (or photographers) who don't read the details or choose to ignore that I require pay.  You know it costs me "bank" to come to your town, so "TFP" isn't going to happen!  Any ideas on how to deal with this?

So what do you think?

Sky Above wrote:
You cannot start to build a good book on TFP you just can't. Heres why. Generally those offering TFP to a new model are not that good themselves. A good photographer generally will not shoot TFP with an inexperienced model, and your images are your biggest telling factor about how professional you are.

Crap... and I thought I was doing pretty good for just starting out. I totally didn't realize I suck because all I have done is TFP.