Paul Ward wrote:

that varies from state to state.  it should be 21 across the board for both sexes.

Betcha that is the ONE issue that would get all the 18 yr old voters up in arms.
Basically the only privelege restricted from those over the age of 18 in this country is drinking.  Since people can vote & die for their country at 18, telling them they can't have sex isn't going to go far.

Vito wrote:

Spoken like someone who doesn't know anything about biology. Why do you think hormones and the like happen at 11-13. That's the age humans were supposed to start having sex. It's all biological. Puritanical rules made the age limits that we live with now. It's probably going to have a harmful effect in the long run. In the old days, 13 you were married with children. The rebuttal to this arguement is it was necessary back then as the life span was shorter, but you know what, our biology didn't change. I believe that's why there is sexual assualt and rape now-a-days. Repressing strong chemical drives is dangerous and not everyone can keep it in check.

No need necessarily to eliminate age of consent rules, but it's sexual repression in GENERAL that leads to some sex crimes.  Another portion of them (the larger one) have more to do with showing power over someone tho.
Good, honest sex education, ready availability of contraception, and less glorification of violence with better acceptance of sexuality would eliminate a lot of these issues tho.

UdoR wrote:
Dear Dave, I am just coming home (4am EST) from a fashionshow (scheduled for 8pm didn't start until 11:45pm)...

... I just deleted a long post in response to you...

Here's the VERY short version:

Finish your degree... move to NYC, work on some major fashionshows...

... and then share your experience on how this industry works and what all designers are looking for!

I appologize if I am brisk and abrasive, but I work full time in this industry and reading your post (too tired to comprehend? Then I will edit when well rested!) just has some minor reactions that would not be nice...

So, please... before you share your experience on the real high fashion world... please wait a while, okay...

Thanks

Udo... a very tired and exhausted Udo

Dear Udor, Lily Cole, 15 years old, Jessica Stam 16 years old, Omahyra Mota 15 years old, Gemma Ward 14 or 15 years old, Devon Aoki (Alex McQueen) 13 years old, before I list the entire industry, try picking up any fashion magazine and reading a few books on the industry and designers perspectives.  Be thankful I didn't start listing the models through the 90's and through the 80's, and yes print and art advertising models (Omahyra / Hana Soukupova 16) are younger than runway models (Heidi 35), I don't understand your point since nearly every major art/fashion publication probably has 1/4 of its covers with girls who either are 15 or have started out at 14-15.  I have also seen 12 year olds walking in major runway shows, it's called Style TV.

My private instructor retired from the industry and I have access to media such as television, texts and magazines, so I'll save my money on the plane ticket. 

Hope i'm not being to harsh on you, afterall you were tired of being at a show all day.  If you want, I'll mail you a few hundred images of 15 year old fashion models, or just stop by First View.com. 

And yes fit models are generally older, most likely college students who are paid 12.50 an hour during peak design season for their perfect size six that is used for marker making and pattern drafting.

Thanks for the expert opinion, but I respectfully disagree, and above lists the reasons why.  As for design, when you start burning, cutting and puncturing your fingers 60 hours a week constructing garments and making patterns, I'll place a higher value on your opinion of design.  I want to play nice, but I just can't agree with you after thousands of hours of experience and hopefully hundreds of thousands of hours to come.

Dave the design student wrote:

Dear Udor, Lily Cole, 15 years old, Jessica Stam 16 years old, Omahyra Mota 15 years old, Gemma Ward 14 or 15 years old, Devon Aoki Alex McQueen) 13 years old, before I list the entire industry, try picking up any fashion magazine and reading a few books on the industry.  Be thankful i didn't start listing the 90's through the 80's and advertising models are younger than runway models, I don't understand your point since nearly every major art/fashion publication probably has 1/4 of its covers with girls who either are 15 or have started out at 14-15.

My private instructor retired from the industry, so I'll save my money on the plane ticket.  Hope i'm not being to harsh on you, afterall you're tired of being at a show all day.  If you want, I'll mail you a few hundred images of 15 year old fashion models.  And yes fit models are generally older, most likely college students who are paid 12.50 an hour during peak design season.

Thanks for the expert opinion.

I love it when someone does their research!  Good Job!

Dave the design student wrote:
Dear Udor, Lily Cole, 15 years old, Jessica Stam 16 years old, Omahyra Mota 15 years old, Gemma Ward 14 or 15 years old, Devon Aoki Alex McQueen) 13 years old, before I list the entire industry, try picking up any fashion magazine and reading a few books on the industry.  Be thankful i didn't start listing the 90's through the 80's and advertising models are younger than runway models, I don't understand your point since nearly every major art/fashion publication probably has 1/4 of its covers with girls who either are 15 or have started out at 14-15.

My private instructor retired from the industry, so I'll save my money on the plane ticket.  Hope i'm not being to harsh on you, afterall you're tired of being at a show all day.  If you want, I'll mail you a few hundred images of 15 year old fashion models.  And yes fit models are generally older, most likely college students who are paid 12.50 an hour during peak design season.

Thanks for the expert opinion.

Dave, apparently, there is a misunderstanding!

The age of the models is not an issue, since we are working with models on the runway as young as 13 (you may not know that I am very involved in the runway scene in NY). This is the reason I was always opting to let models as young as 13 to become members on model mayhem. Because that's where the industry really starts... so, your listing has really NOTHING to do with my point.

What I was pointing out is that you were talking about the sleek body, with no curves and that is what "the designers" are looking for.

I work with a lot of designers, we are casting for, I do backstage interviews, shoot runway etc... and I KNOW what kind of body's are on the runway... because it's my job... and the straight, curveless body you were describing... is just NOT the reason why they start that young.

I have given later in that post the real reason why they start at this young of age... and that's the body of a sexually mature person at age 19/20 on a 13 years old girl... so that this one can be used for many more years to come.

When I wrote that, I came home from a fashionshow, and then read your reason... I was just not happy, because this stereotype sticks over and over in the minds of people... usually of people who are not dealing in the actual high fashion/runway world.

Again... it's the rounded, sexually mature body of an older girl, not the pre-pubertary body on an older girl... that's so out of style.

UdoR wrote:
What I was pointing out is that you were talking about the sleek body, with no curves and that is what "the designers" are looking for.

I work with a lot of designers, we are casting for, I do backstage interviews, shoot runway etc... and I KNOW what kind of body's are on the runway... because it's my job... and the straight, curveless body you were describing... is just NOT the reason why they start that young.

Again... it's the rounded, sexually mature body of an older girl, not the pre-pubertary body on an older girl... that's so out of style.

Udor,
I shoot 7th on 6th all the time for the likes of CNN, CBC, E!, etc... 
The women at these shows are NOT curvy... 

They may be 'Curvy' to you, but to the General Public, they simply are not.
Given, they are curvier than they have been in past years, but they are still not 'Curvy'.

I have an idea, during the upcoming Fashion Shows in February, why don't I take you to the Hustler or Penthouse Club,  a Strip Club and show you what is considered 'Curvy' to the General Public.  I always go there after the Runway Shows just to see what 'Real Women' are supposed to look like........

Hamza wrote:
They may be 'Curvy' to you, but to the General Public, they simply are not.
Given, they are curvier than they have been in past years, but they are still not 'Curvy'.

I have an idea, during the upcoming Fashion Shows in February, why don't I take you to a Strip Club and show you what is considered 'Curvy' to the General Public.  I always go there after the Runway Shows just to see what 'Real Women' are supposed to look like........

LOL... you are totally right... coming from euro, I have a different perspective...

I have been with my ex a very regular at many strip clubs for a few years... so, I know the "curviness" of the gals there... and I think that they are often cute too...

But we still could hang... I am usually at the MAC lounge with a few others, downloading etc.

Let me know when you are there. I won't be shooting on Sat/Sun, because I am working on some shows off site... (except for a few times for backstage interviews we have scheduled).

I've met quite a few shooters at the tents who also were on MM.

Later

Udo

P.S.: I wish I had accounts of your caliber built up already!

Dave the design student wrote:
I sent Udor a private mail and a quick follow up mail, but the follow up I thought might say what alot of people are probably thinking.  At least the second half, the opening was a bit personal.  So here it is:

Every artist has strong opinions and put two guys with artistic backgrounds together from Detroit and Brooklyn, sparks are bound to fly, but definitely no hard feelings. 

I think most misunderstandings on Model Mayhem come from people having a different perspective than 97% of the people they are speaking to on the service, and the huge amount of delay in the conversations. 

If we were all sitting at a table, 80% of the model mayhem disagreements wouldn't ever even happen, fingers obviously do wear out after a few hundred words.

Again, have a good one...

He got you now, he just needed to hear it in New York Speak...

SLE Photography wrote:

Betcha that is the ONE issue that would get all the 18 yr old voters up in arms.
Basically the only privelege restricted from those over the age of 18 in this country is drinking.  Since people can vote & die for their country at 18, telling them they can't have sex isn't going to go far.

i say this with all seriousness:

i have never EVER come across an 18 year old in my soon to be 36 years of life that has ever bothered to vote or knows about issues that pertain to them or their future.  that is one issue i would love to put to the test.  i guarantee it would pass because of the indifference of the younger generation...and because they'll find ways to get around it anyway.   young adults are so self centered about stupid nonsense that will not help them find a job or educate them it's really amazing.

ask a teenager the lyrics to the latest mtv hit and they'll answer within a second.  ask a teenager a random question regarding current events or history and get a blank stare at BEST.

that being said, what things should be and what they are will always be different

Synthetic Shadows wrote:

better yet, girls this age and younger are HAVING SEX.

they're not just looking sexy. they're SEXING.

as a parent....ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Not necessarily. I have had plenty of models and people in  general who are in the early and even mid 20s say that 30 is old .Some of the models in that age range wouldn`t work with me specifically for that reason. They told me themselves they felt I was too old to work with and that I was probably some dirty old man. Although I am only 33.
I usually reply with ok, how many professional photographers do you know that are 20 years old?

Oh, well those people are just dumbasses. just ask this guy...

Lens N Light wrote:

Methinks they are the ones using MM as a dating service.

or just to advertise there "services" dating or otherwise

Dave the design student wrote:
If we were all sitting at a table, 80% of the model mayhem disagreements wouldn't ever even happen, fingers obviously do wear out after a few hundred words.

i totally agree.  i'm glad this didn't turn into an arguement, that would've just been silly.

Paul Ward wrote:
i have never EVER come across an 18 year old in my soon to be 36 years of life that has ever bothered to vote or knows about issues that pertain to them or their future.  that is one issue i would love to put to the test.  i guarantee it would pass because of the indifference of the younger generation...and because they'll find ways to get around it anyway.   young adults are so self centered about stupid nonsense that will not help them find a job or educate them it's really amazing.

Generalizations are fun aren't they?

Just because *you* have never met them, doesn't mean they don't exist. I, personally have met plenty of teenagers who participate and are interested in politics.

Let's paint the world black and white.... WHEEEEE!!!!

Paul Ward wrote:

i say this with all seriousness:

i have never EVER come across an 18 year old in my soon to be 36 years of life that has ever bothered to vote or knows about issues that pertain to them or their future.  that is one issue i would love to put to the test.  i guarantee it would pass because of the indifference of the younger generation...and because they'll find ways to get around it anyway.   young adults are so self centered about stupid nonsense that will not help them find a job or educate them it's really amazing.

ask a teenager the lyrics to the latest mtv hit and they'll answer within a second.  ask a teenager a random question regarding current events or history and get a blank stare at BEST.

that being said, what things should be and what they are will always be different

Hmmm, blanket statements are risky at-best. 
You never met me at 18, or even 16, when I was devouring books like "Freakonomics," "Guns, Germs, and Steel," and various others regarding politics, economics, history, and social issues.  I couldn't WAIT to vote, and I have, ever since I turned 18.
I care about my future and have ever since I realized that I could/should be proactive in building it.

x-leila-x wrote:
not that there is anything wrong with being with an older boy..

well there are degrees to that sweety.

io wrote:

I find this rather amazing, because I would be willing to bet money that 100% of all hetero/bi males w/normal sex drives have, at some point, seen a female under the age of 18 (either knowing her age or not) and found her to be sexually attractive.

  There's NO WAY you can just look at a girl an tell her exact age, at 13 I was often mistaken for 18-21 (MUCH to the horror of the males who hit on me), and now, at nearly 23, people think I'm 16-18 all the time. 

  BTW, finding some 16-17-year-old attractive DOES NOT a pedophile make (acting on that attraction can be a completely different matter), no psychologist would diagnose it as such.

You are so right.  my daughter is 15, soon to be 16, guys have been checking her out and hitting on her since she was 14, until dad 'gently' clues them in that she is only 15.  I would have to admit, there was a little cutie across the street from us, would be out in the front yard in her bikini and on more than one occassion did I stumble over my tongue...er....catch my self admiring her beauty.....until I found out that she was 15 and my daughter's new friend!  She omes to the house and i am still amazed that she is only 15, I would have bet a lot of good money that she was at least 18.  Oh boy was I embarassed.....and you're right it's the 'acting on the attraction' where the line is crossed.

BasementStudios wrote:

You are so right.  my daughter is 15, soon to be 16, guys have been checking her out and hitting on her since she was 14, until dad 'gently' clues them in that she is only 15.  I would have to admit, there was a little cutie across the street from us, would be out in the front yard in her bikini and on more than one occassion did I stumble over my tongue...er....catch my self admiring her beauty.....until I found out that she was 15 and my daughter's new friend!  She omes to the house and i am still amazed that she is only 15, I would have bet a lot of good money that she was at least 18.  Oh boy was I embarassed.....and you're right it's the 'acting on the attraction' where the line is crossed.

I get mistaken for older all of the time. It happens a lot when I'm at the mall and such because when I go out, I dress "up" I guess. Nice blouse and jeans, heels and some make up. I think it's a lot about my height too. Guys will try to talk to me that I know are like 22 or so and I say..."I'm sorry, I'm only 16" (Well now I can say 17 'cause today is my birthday!) but they'll say, "Hey, would you like to go to a club tonight?" and such and I say "Sure, I'd love to but I can't. "
They're usually really sweet though and say "Call me in 5 years!" and "No way! Man, just my luck!" I usually just laugh it off. I don't look like a child so why would someone think someone is a pediphile when I look like a woman? Like your neighbor looks like a woman. Pedophiles like little kids.

When I was 14 we were on a plane coming from Florida and these guys across from me kept staring at me and it was grossing me out but my Dad was in the seat behind me and man! I thought he was going to beat the crap out of them!LOL
The rule in our house is I can't date anyone over 18 until I am. I don't mind it and I think it's fair. My boyfriend right now is 16 so it's all good.

Jessica L wrote:
I get mistaken for older all of the time. It happens a lot when I'm at the mall and such because when I go out, I dress "up" I guess. Nice blouse and jeans, heels and some make up. I think it's a lot about my height too. Guys will try to talk to me that I know are like 22 or so and I say..."I'm sorry, I'm only 16" (Well now I can say 17 'cause today is my birthday!) but they'll say, "Hey, would you like to go to a club tonight?" and such and I say "Sure, I'd love to but I can't. "
They're usually really sweet though and say "Call me in 5 years!" and "No way! Man, just my luck!" I usually just laugh it off. I don't look like a child so why would someone think someone is a pediphile when I look like a woman? Like your neighbor looks like a woman. Pedophiles like little kids.

"Dressing up" is part of it, but the way someone caries themselves is an even bigger part of it, I think. I've approached women in the past, convinced they were at least 19 or 20, only to be politely turned down after being told they are 16 or 17.

Physical signs of age and maturity are no guarantee these days. Have a look at the Bowflex advert running that has a 50 year old grandmother advertising the machine. There is no way she looks 50, late thirties tops. So, with older people looking and staying "younger" and younger people maturing earlier, its quite easy to state someone under the legal age of consent looks sexy and attractive, and quite difficult to make a judgement based solely on how someone looks.

As an aside, I like what you said; "if someone looks like a woman, how can that be pedophilia?" very astute.

x-leila-x wrote:
''well there are degrees to that sweety.''

how does age make a difference?..

Personally, the only real difference age makes is experience. Not sexual experience, but life lived, loved, lossed, etc. I am certainly a different man then the person I was when I was 25. I was mature then, for a 20-something. Sometimes, no matter HOW mature you are experience speaks volumes and changes you. It can drive a big wedge between people, or can be the leveling factor as well.

Maturity however is not necessarily restricted to an age, or set of experiences. It is how you treat yourself, and those around you, how you carry yourself, and how you behave, think and feel.

x-leila-x wrote:
yea lots of girls my age (16) are attracted to older guys...and i think it is alot about maturity...its just more natural too

This is true. Most guys your age aren't safe or even sane they're usually pretty crazy with testosterone and completely unseasoned. 16 year old girls may not be mature, but they're usually more mature than their contemporaries of the opposite sex. It is not wonder that younger girls look for what are at least the surface qualities of older men. The problem then becomes, are they being decieved because by age 22 most guys have really learned to lie to strange women for sex.

x-leila-x wrote:
i think im quite mature for my age...

I don't know any 16 year old girls who don't think that same thought and enjoy reminding the rest of us of that "fact" repeatedly. I wonder what drives that desire to be percieved as more mature.

x-leila-x wrote:
repetedly?...do you mean once? and i did not state it as a 'fact' i said ''i think'' which means it is an opinion.

I think you misunderstood me. I was speaking generally. I wasn't saying you've said that repeatedly or referenced it as a fact, I was saying I've heard many 16 year old girls say they think they're very mature, but usually it is a front and they're quite insecure. Not speaking of you, speaking in general from my experience.

x-leila-x wrote:
i think im quite mature for my age...more so than my nearly 21 year old boyfriend.
...lol and how do you know its not the 16 year old girls decieveing the 22 year old guys for sex? not saying the guy would care much but it happens!

Well that does happen I know but we need laws with a set age so we can at least protect some of the young kids from predators. They are out there and they are taking advantage of young girls who just haven't lived long enough to learn not everyone is a good guy.