Mos Photography wrote:

Well, I cant call myself a real photographer because im in college so..........

yea, the same applies to you.

If I see a beautiful girl or a model who I KNOW will give me a great look, I want to make sure that look is executed. Telling a model an idea and her showing her not looking like what I had in mind, is a waste of time.

the basic premise behind TFP/TFCD is that the shoot will benefit both parties. You're sounding pretty selfish here. It's a waste of your time but not hers.

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

And if they get audited they will get that deduction taken away from them. I'm a tax accountant.

Jessalyin is write, I asked my CPA about wardrobe and he just laughed - not unless it is a Giant Chicken Oufit.  So, at least I got to write that off.  LOL

Seth wrote:

Jessalyin is write, I asked my CPA about wardrobe and he just laughed - not unless it is a Giant Chicken Oufit.  So, at least I got to write that off.  LOL

Another BOO-YAH in the house please.

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

the basic premise behind TFP/TFCD is that the shoot will benefit both parties. You're sounding pretty selfish here. It's a waste of your time but not hers.

Most TFP's I have done, nearly ALL of the models ask me what kind of ideas do I have. They dont come to me with ideas, so it varies with each photographer.

Mos Photography wrote:
I understand that some models are building their port, but please dont go off on me when I say I am not accpeting any TFP. Why do models want to use the best photographers on MM, but not pay for his/her talent?

I feel your pain. It is so unfortunate that people have to be so rude. Everyone has the right to their opinion and saying no.
I recently received an email from a well established photographer on how to get away from TFP/TFCD.

HIS RESPONSE:

The way to not do TFP is to NOT do TFP. I never do it. If you do, you just perpetuate it’s existence. I strongly encourage people to practice on family, friends, pets, etc. You can’t work for FREE and then shift gears and expect people to pay you for it. They won’t.

And when you do TFP, you are in essence saying that what you do has NO value. I can’t emphasize enough practicing on friends. Do you want to practice hard to learn your craft and not get paid? Do you want to start this NEVER-ENDING journey of spending money to keep current with digital technology and not get paid?? You are already combating a world where everyone thinks they are a photographer because they went to Best Buy and bought a point and shoot digital camera...

Pardon the analogy, but TFP is kinda like the hooker that enjoys sex, doesn’t charge for it, then wonders why she can’t pay the bills.

Make sense??

This totally makes sense. Some of us do this full time, and others are working hard to make this a full time career. If we keep giving our talents away for free, How is this ever going to happen?

PS: Models:

I have done some modeling myself, so I understand there are expenses involved on your side to.
Yet we all have to draw the line somewhere though if we are really serious about succeeding at this.

It is nothing personal, just business.

Rhonda

Mos Photography wrote:
When I was accepting TFP, I had a stylist and makeup artist working for me. So I had to pay them out of my own money because I knew what kind of looks I wanted

uh, ..., now that you're no longer taking TFPs, like the rest of us who bill for our time & work, why not bill these things to your client?

business man, runs past the camera time; business, just business ...

F

Jessalyn_54 wrote:
the basic premise behind TFP/TFCD is that the shoot will benefit both parties. You're sounding pretty selfish here. It's a waste of your time but not hers.

Mos Photography wrote:
Most TFP's I have done, nearly ALL of the models ask me what kind of ideas do I have. They dont come to me with ideas, so it varies with each photographer.

right but it's to benefit all parties involved.

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

Well I'm in accounting so sometimes we have to argue with people when they say "but can't I just hide this little bit of money in some offshore account? Pleeaaassseee?"

er... i do that all the time... what is wrong with that?  lol
of course, i'm not hiding... i'm just making a deposit there... (jk IRS)

Mos Photography wrote:

lol..I love you. You just made the best post in this thread.

You will always encounter people who crave for somethin' & unfortunately they always assume you'll provide them those needs (and it's mainly ATTENTION).

Seth wrote:

Jessalyin is write, I asked my CPA about wardrobe and he just laughed - not unless it is a Giant Chicken Oufit.  So, at least I got to write that off.  LOL

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

brownbulldawg wrote:

You will always encounter people who crave for somethin' & unfortunately they always assume you'll provide them those needs (and it's mainly ATTENTION).

Smokin port, brownbulldawg!!!

Shawn Ray wrote:

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

And you can better believe that if the IRS can assume that you will add it to your wardrobe and use it later on that they will disallow it.

At one of my former accounting jobs a woman was running a painting business and put down the pants she bought for the business as a business deduction. Once they're covered in paint you wouldn't wear them for anything else right? Well when the IRS audited her return they disallowed it.

CREATIVE EYE MEDIA wrote:

I feel your pain. It is so unfortunate that people have to be so rude. Everyone has the right to their opinion and saying no.
I recently received an email from a well established photographer on how to get away from TFP/TFCD.

HIS RESPONSE:

The way to not do TFP is to NOT do TFP. I never do it. If you do, you just perpetuate it’s existence. I strongly encourage people to practice on family, friends, pets, etc. You can’t work for FREE and then shift gears and expect people to pay you for it. They won’t.

And when you do TFP, you are in essence saying that what you do has NO value. I can’t emphasize enough practicing on friends. Do you want to practice hard to learn your craft and not get paid? Do you want to start this NEVER-ENDING journey of spending money to keep current with digital technology and not get paid?? You are already combating a world where everyone thinks they are a photographer because they went to Best Buy and bought a point and shoot digital camera...

Pardon the analogy, but TFP is kinda like the hooker that enjoys sex, doesn’t charge for it, then wonders why she can’t pay the bills.

Make sense??

This totally makes sense. Some of us do this full time, and others are working hard to make this a full time career. If we keep giving our talents away for free, How is this ever going to happen?

PS: Models:

I have done some modeling myself, so I understand there are expenses involved on your side to.
Yet we all have to draw the line somewhere though if we are really serious about succeeding at this.

It is nothing personal, just business.

Rhonda

This is such a great post. Especially the practing on family thing. 75% of the models in my port are family members. From my three sisters to my girlfriend. I do have some that I paid, and more that paid me.

Shawn Ray wrote:

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

A stylist or photographer maybe, but if you are the model and you wear it again AFTER the shoot, still wardrobe? 

You can write-off anything you want.  Whether or not it sticks is a different story.

I am not an accountant so I'm no expert, but I was warned to be careful on this point.

Shawn Ray wrote:

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

Thank you. I was just at a confrence today and we were talking about this.

brownbulldawg wrote:

You will always encounter people who crave for somethin' & unfortunately they always assume you'll provide them those needs (and it's mainly ATTENTION).

Maganda Ka

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

And you can better believe that if the IRS can assume that you will add it to your wardrobe and use it later on that they will disallow it.

At one of my former accounting jobs a woman was running a painting business and put down the pants she bought for the business as a business deduction. Once they're covered in paint you wouldn't wear them for anything else right? Well when the IRS audited her return they disallowed it.

Disallowed... huh?  Dually noted.

FML-Photography wrote:

uh,..., not sure where anyone went off on you about not accepting TFPs ...

(many of us don't, we just don't announce it so much)

... but don't we all wish for a good deal? more for our money's worth? e.g., hoping to work with better talent, be it models or photographers, when & how the opportunity might present itself? so much the better if it comes in form of an exchange?

F

I like what this guys says. It is a weird world out there. Take this for example. I had a contract that stated "prints" were a reimbursement cost. After the shoot,  which I did get my payment for my services, I touched up the photos got them printed on my account at the printers (which allows me to pass on my very good rates with no upcharge to my clients) I then send the prints and invoices over. I now have a letter stating they are only paying for the print cost, not the tax nor the delivery fee! They are stated it was not in the contract. It was a big order and that left about $140 not being reimbursed.

Shawn Ray wrote:

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

Did you want to borrow my chicken outfit?

Shawn Ray wrote:
If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

Mos Photography wrote:
Thank you. I was just at a confrence today and we were talking about this.

Shawn Ray is incorrect Mos (sorry Shawn). I already pointed that out.

Shawn Ray wrote:

Disallowed... huh?  Dually noted.

yea the point is: sure! you can deduct it on your tax return! but that doesn't mean the IRS can't come back later and tell you that you were wrong

Seth wrote:

A stylist or photographer maybe, but if you are the model and you wear it again AFTER the shoot, still wardrobe? 

You can write-off anything you want.  Whether or not it sticks is a different story.

I am not an accountant so I'm no expert, but I was warned to be careful on this point.

correct

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

yea the point is: sure! you can deduct it on your tax return! but that doesn't mean the IRS can't come back later and tell you that you were wrong

Damn!  I guess the american flag thong goes back.

Shawn Ray wrote:

Damn!  I guess the american flag thong goes back.

or you can put it in your personal collection.....or make a model wear it and sell it on ebay when she's famous

Jessalyn_54 wrote:

correct

I mean really. Are the IRS going to bust you at the nightclub with the same shirt you wrote off for a photoshoot. How could they possible know if you wore the clothes AFTER the shoot??

Mos Photography wrote:

I mean really. Are the IRS going to bust you at the nightclub with the same shirt you wrote off for a photoshoot. How could they possible know if you wore the clothes AFTER the shoot??

it's assumed. you are not given the benefit of the doubt. Like I said it only matters if you get audited....so yes it matters. If you buy clothes it is assumed they are added to your collection. The burden of proof lies on you to prove to the IRS that you didn't add it to your personal collection.

Shawn Ray wrote:

If you buy wardrobe specifically for a modeling job... you better believe you can write it off.  I've had several accountants that have confirmed that for years.

actually, IRS may claim that as the model's expense, and not deductable.

They key to go around that is have the photographer buy the outfit, charge it to the model as a 'sitting fee,' then the model can deduct that and still keep the clothes.  The photographer then can claim the outfit as well, as part of wardrobe expense.  (disclaimer: of course i would never do such a thing)

Seth wrote:
My dad tried the ultimate one - tried writing off an entire sailboat because he occasionally took clients out on it.  I think the IRS had to wait an hour so they could stop laughing before they called him.  LOL

lol! another accountant told me the other day that this guy was trying to write off obscene amounts of mileage and so he asked the taxpayer if he could see the mileage on his car and the guy answered "umm....well...uh..." so the accountant told him to spit it out what was wrong...turns out the taxpayer had the car on a lease and had gone over the miles with all the driving he'd been doing for work and went over his limit...so he unhooked the odometer.

Seth wrote:
My dad tried the ultimate one - tried writing off an entire sailboat because he occasionally took clients out on it.  I think the IRS had to wait an hour so they could stop laughing before they called him.  LOL

you can't claim the entire boat, but you can claim the hourly rate if you were to rent one in order to take clients out for business stuff.

Mos Photography wrote:
I understand that some models are building their port, but please dont go off on me when I say I am not accpeting any TFP. Why do models want to use the best photographers on MM, but not pay for his/her talent?

Actually, you should probably be more upset at photographers who know WTF they're doing and yet still offer TFP shoots.

Here's the dealio, from my POV: there's not a lot of money to be made at the low end of the curve. Sure, there will be beginners with parents who are willing to foot the bill for a professional shoot. But for the most part, no, there isn't a lot to be made on that part of the curve. These are usually college students, and unless they are strippers, they're probably not making a whole lot of money.

So how do you climb the curve? Why, by improving your port.

I'll use Jessie as an example. There is no doubt that, working together, we have significantly improved each other's portfolios. It's a symbiotic relationship, and we both get the same thing out of it. Would a paying client have jumped in a fountain in the middle of a severe thunderstorm, as Jessie did? Probably not, because the tornado sirens were going off and everybody else was heading for their basement.

But now that those photos are in my port, I get models asking to play in fountains and praying for rain when we shoot. And I seem to get a lot of respect on these forums because of those photos.

Is that a big deal? Maybe not, but it's how you build a reputation. I've worked with "pay only" models who asked to do TFP shoots with me. I've done nudes with "no nudes" models. For the most part, this is the result of six months' worth of TFCD shoots that I decided to try as a change of pace.

The only way to improve your port is to shoot, shoot, shoot.

Jessalyn_54 wrote:
[lol! another accountant told me the other day that this guy was trying to write off obscene amounts of mileage and so he asked the taxpayer if he could see the mileage on his car and the guy answered "umm....well...uh..." so the accountant told him to spit it out what was wrong...turns out the taxpayer had the car on a lease and had gone over the miles with all the driving he'd been doing for work and went over his limit...so he unhooked the odometer.

LOL..I think my Dad unhoooked his brain before he sent in that return with the boat on it. 

Nice guy, just wasn't fully engaging his grey matter at that point

Mos Photography wrote:

I mean really. Are the IRS going to bust you at the nightclub with the same shirt you wrote off for a photoshoot. How could they possible know if you wore the clothes AFTER the shoot??

if you've ever been audited you'll know that they don't have to prove you did what is obvious and reasonable. You have to prove you did not for the deduction to stick. The burden is on you to justify the expensing of any item (and prove that justification).

oldguysrule wrote:
if you've ever been audited you'll know that they don't have to prove you did what is obvious and reasonable. You have to prove you did not for the deduction to stick. The burden is on you to justify the expensing of any item (and prove that justification).

burden of proof is a BITCH!

EDIT: now I'm off