Model
TroisCouleurs
Posts: 1021
Dublin, California, US
I think it's understandable. Once you have established on the market and people are willing to pay for your talent/skills, why would you be interested in TFPs?
And vice versa if you are only paid by bad models (clients as bad models as well?) to photograph them, you might eventually want to do TFPs again.
So take it easy and have a good weekend!
Model
MelissaLynnette LaDiva
Posts: 50816
Leawood, Kansas, US
RGK Photography wrote:
Until she provides her CPA accredidation and the actual IRS audit and the reasons behind it, my response is just as valid as hers. How do you figure?
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Koray wrote:
the thing is the best photographers dont make threads like this one...its like
"anybody wanna shoot some sexy and creative...but you gotta pay"
and I like it better when a photographer is backed up by a model...fun to watch  Hey, thats your opinion. I am confident in my work. I may not be the greastest and I have never claimed to be, but I do hope to be one day. Some people like my work, some dont. Some people like your work, some dont. The only people who can decide rather or not im the best photographer is ones that are paying me.
Model
RDawkins
Posts: 4532
Breckenridge, Colorado, US
RGK Photography wrote:
Until she provides her CPA accredidation and the actual IRS audit and the reasons behind it, my response is just as valid as hers. Not if we like her better.
Digital Artist
Koray
Posts: 6720
Ankara, Ankara, Turkey
Mos Photography wrote:
Hey, thats your opinion. I am confident in my work. I may not be the greastest and I have never claimed to be, but I do hope to be one day. Some people like my work, some dont. Some people like your work, some dont. The only people who can decide rather or not im the best photographer is ones that are paying me. man you are making a big mistake...instead of shooting you are making threads...just keep shooting ...and let it go.
there is always the other option but why?...no need??
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Koray wrote:
man you are making a big mistake...instead of shooting you are making threads...just keep shooting ...and let it go.
there is always the other option but why?...no need?? You are posting just like me man. Ill leave it at that.
Model
Renee Hyde
Posts: 178
New York, New York, US
No matter what arguement you, me, or anyone comes up with either supporting or going against it, it can always happen on the other side as well. What happens to photographers and is applied to them, can also happen to models. The only thing that can come from this is a flame war. Good luck.  Renee Mos Photography wrote:
I understand that some models are building their port, but please dont go off on me when I say I am not accpeting any TFP. Why do models want to use the best photographers on MM, but not pay for his/her talent?
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17825
El Segundo, California, US
Mos Photography wrote:
Hey, thats your opinion. I am confident in my work. I may not be the greastest and I have never claimed to be, but I do hope to be one day. Some people like my work, some dont. Some people like your work, some dont.[b] The only people who can decide rather or not im the best photographer is ones that are paying me.[b] Quibble; the ones who have decided you're their best choice are paying you. The rest will not.
That decision is based on a variety of reasons: distance, style, quality, vision, cost, availability, or something else, not just "best photographer".
That's what started this thread, if indirectly: one model felt you were worth working with for free, but decided against working with you if it would cost.
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Kevin Connery wrote:
Quibble; the ones who have decided you're their best choice are paying you. The rest will not.
That decision is based on a variety of reasons: distance, style, quality, vision, cost, availability, or something else, not just "best photographer".
That's what started this thread, if indirectly: one model felt you were worth working with for free, but decided against working with you if it would cost. It wasnt just about paying me. She said "I never pay for pictures", so im assuming it not about talent but about this model being spoiled by TFP's...
Photographer
j-shooter
Posts: 1912
San Francisco, California, US
Nemi Bea wrote:
Because we don't have money.
You = Working Professional
Me = 20 year old kid, 40 thousand dollars in debt.
duh.
Why don't you chat about something else that has been beat into the fucking ground? I guess they teach college kids to get into debt.
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17825
El Segundo, California, US
Kevin Connery wrote:
Quibble; the ones who have decided you're their best choice are paying you. The rest will not.
That decision is based on a variety of reasons: distance, style, quality, vision, cost, availability, or something else, not just "best photographer".
That's what started this thread, if indirectly: one model felt you were worth working with for free, but decided against working with you if it would cost. Mos Photography wrote:
It wasnt just about paying me. She said "I never pay for pictures", so im assuming it not about talent but about this model being spoiled by TFP's... You can assume anything you want. The facts are that she chose not to work with you, and you got annoyed enough decided to start yet another thread in the TFP series about it.
Photographer
Photocraft
Posts: 631
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
The answer to the writeoff question depends on some assumptions, but let me try to quantify it: (and I'm not a tax expert, but I play one late at night in dying forum threads)
$benefit = (your marginal tax bracket)*(amount of writeoff) - (odds of being audited) * (odds of excluding deduction) * (penalties and interest at time of audit on disputed amount);
1) If you're in a low bracket to begin with, it's not going to save you all that much unless it's a significant expense.
2) The odds of being audited are pretty small overall, but it's a black science so you might trigger an audit flag if you take certain types of deductions. This is a good reason to get an opinion from a tax specialist, but even then they range from conservative to aggressive, and there's no one right answer unless you appeal it and take it to court - then the right answer only applies to just you anyways.
3) The odds of having your deduction excluded are debatable. If you keep receipts, you at least have a chance. This is curiously the only point that has been argued so far, and it may be the least important factor under some scenarios.
Go ahead, tear me a new one! Otherwise I have to go to sleep.
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
I have pretty bad dandruff sometimes.
Photographer
Photocraft
Posts: 631
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
I have pretty bad dandruff sometimes. You are head and shoulders above your peers, and you can write that off but not down.
Model
MelissaLynnette LaDiva
Posts: 50816
Leawood, Kansas, US
Jphoto wrote:
I guess they teach college kids to get into debt. Well when it costs a good 60 to 80 grand for undergrad, yeah I guess that's what they're teaching us. Sorry we aren't all Jenna and Barbara Bush, some of us have to take out student loans.
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11987
Costa Mesa, California, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
well it still goes the other way. if a model thinks she one the best or even is one of the best, shouldn't you be paying her? so you may think you're worthy of being paid but that model thinks the exact same thing. Ah the age old struggle. No one gets paid till I do! And I Agree 100%.
Mike
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11987
Costa Mesa, California, US
From the OP's Profile..."Right now I am not accepting TFP because my portfolio is complete." WRONG! It is NEVER complete unless you are not trying to improve. If you feel your port is complete your standards are to low. Now I'm NOT saying you suck or anything. Just that you are not one of the best photographers even on MM..let alone "who ever touched a camera". Lofty goal. Keep shooting! Good luck.
Mike
Photographer
Vector 38
Posts: 8296
Austin, Texas, US
Nemi Bea wrote:
You = Working Professional, Me = 20 year old kid, 40 thousand dollars in debt uh, wait, his profile lists him as only 21 yrs old, barely one yr older than you. i'm sure he probably has some debts too ...
F
Photographer
Sockpuppet Studios
Posts: 7862
San Francisco, California, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
it's assumed. you are not given the benefit of the doubt. Like I said it only matters if you get audited....so yes it matters. If you buy clothes it is assumed they are added to your collection. The burden of proof lies on you to prove to the IRS that you didn't add it to your personal collection. So as a model I can't write off my clothes...because I can wear them other places unless I can prove that I only wear them for modleign and that is pretty hard to prove...
But, as a photographer..I can write off the wardrobe I buy for other models that stays in my studio and is never worn by me...
Silly I tell ya, but that is the irs.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
RGK Photography wrote:
Garbage, if they are pants which can reasonably be assumed to be used for work, they are a business deduction. If you couldn't argue that then you aren't very good. you show me where in the tax code it allows the deduction and I'll back down.
that's right, you can't.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
RGK Photography wrote:
I am not at the right level, but in the real world, how often do photogs pay models?? is that a joke? I hope you're joking.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
Mos Photography wrote:
I dont even understand how you tried to flip the whole situation. I have stated from the start that models who have rates should be paid. Why are you acting like this is 50/50 when its clearly not? My original post was about a model being rude when I said "Im sorry, I no longer do TFP". Simple as that.
I think you like arguing, even at the risk of sounding like you have no idea what you are arguing about. You have a nice night Jessalyn. I never flipped the situation. As I have quoted, many times, your original post stated
Mos Photography wrote:
Why do models want to use the best photographers on MM, but not pay for his/her talent? in addition to your point about the model being rude. It's not my fault that you opened yourself up for a whole different argument. You were implying that models should pay you because you're good.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
RGK Photography wrote:
Garbage, if they are pants which can reasonably be assumed to be used for work, they are a business deduction. If you couldn't argue that then you aren't very good. you can argue all you want with the IRS, doesn't mean you're right. Just because a tax accountant tells you "oh yea you can deduct that" doesn't mean they are right. It means they told someone else to do it before and they got away with it.
Photographer
Benjamen McGuire
Posts: 3991
Portland, Oregon, US
Mos Photography wrote:
Why do models want to use the best photographers on MM, but not pay for his/her talent? Why do you care? That's between the models and the best photographers on MM, not you.
Photographer
UnoMundo
Posts: 47532
Olympia, Washington, US
Nemi Bea wrote:
Because we don't have money.
You = Working Professional
Me = 20 year old kid, 40 thousand dollars in debt.
duh.
Why don't you chat about something else that has been beat into the fucking ground? You need a cast on the mouth !
Model
Syl
Posts: 1050
QUEENS VILLAGE, New York, US
it's a choice.. you don't have to accept. many great photographers shoot tfcd and many horrible photographers charge. in the digital age, what does it really cost a photographer but a few hours and maybe a great networking opportunity...
Model
Alex N
Posts: 2185
Ann Arbor, Michigan, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
some photographers don't realize that there are model expenses that go into TFP also (gotta get my roots done, get the nails done, possibly buy a brand new outfit).
just sayin. goes both ways. I see both sides, but just wanted to say that was incredibly well spoken on Jessalyn's part. To be prepared for a shoot, and do your best to make it a shoot that will be beneficial to both the photographer and yourself, you will probably have costs.
That said, honestly if I could afford to pay, and rates were reasonable there's a chance I would on occasion. Unfortunately due to my physical condition/medical situation I can't have a regular 9-5 job, or even a part time that has a set schedule, and I can't afford to pay the photographer. The best I can hope to offer is something they can use for their portfolio and a good experience.
However, just to clarify I wouldn't ask a photographer who doesn't do tfp for tfp. I see that as putting them in an awkward and unwanted situation, and a waste of both of our time.
Photographer
Royal Photography
Posts: 2011
Birmingham, Alabama, US
I had a model email me once....said she was going to be in my town for the weekend...loved my photos and wanted to do a TFP with me. I told her I wasnt doing TFP's but would gladly make an appointment to work with her for the standard rate. She wrote me back and said "Look!! I am doing you a favor by offering my services as a model. My standard rate is $150.00 per hour with a three hour min." I wrote back with...I appreciate your offer of your services and I will gladly pay your $150.00 per hour for three hours if you will pay my $150.00 per hour for three hours plus film and other directly related expenses.
She responded with......I am not sure I understand.
I left it at that....
lol
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
Mos Photography wrote:
I dont even understand how you tried to flip the whole situation. I have stated from the start that models who have rates should be paid. Why are you acting like this is 50/50 when its clearly not? My original post was about a model being rude when I said "Im sorry, I no longer do TFP". Simple as that.
I think you like arguing, even at the risk of sounding like you have no idea what you are arguing about. You have a nice night Jessalyn. I never flipped the situation. As I have quoted, many times, your original post stated
in addition to your point about the model being rude. It's not my fault that you opened yourself up for a whole different argument. You were implying that models should pay you because you're good. I WAS APPLYING MODELS SHOULD PAY me because im no longer accepting TFP!! You can quote that one little sentence out of my WHOLE original post, but your still not making sense.
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
FML-Photography wrote:
uh, wait, his profile lists him as only 21 yrs old, barely one yr older than you. i'm sure he probably has some debts too ...
F Thank you.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
Mos Photography wrote:
I WAS APPLYING MODELS SHOULD PAY me because im no longer accepting TFP!! You can quote that one little sentence out of my WHOLE original post, but your still not making sense. you were implying that you are one of the best photographers on MM so you should be paid. How does my argument not make sense to you?
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
syl wrote:
it's a choice.. you don't have to accept. many great photographers shoot tfcd and many horrible photographers charge. in the digital age, what does it really cost a photographer but a few hours and maybe a great networking opportunity... It cost a photographer way more than that.
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Mike Walker wrote:
you are not one of the best photographers even on MM..let alone "who ever touched a camera".
Mike Well, I am glad we both feel the same about each others work. Atleast we agree on something.
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
you were implying that you are one of the best photographers on MM so you should be paid. How does my argument not make sense to you? So the whole point of me wanting to be paid because I am no longer accepting TFP just went out of the window huh?..lol. So funny.
Model
-Sky
Posts: 6
Linwood, North Carolina, US
i didn't read all the postings but u gotta realize that some people are just rude....take it with a grain of salt. don't sweat the people who get mad at you for charging. delete the email, move on.
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17825
El Segundo, California, US
Mos Photography wrote:
It cost a photographer way more than that. That's yet another dead horse you're beating. ![https://www.kevinconnery.com/icons_and_graphics/icon_beating_horse.gif]()
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
can you imagine if your mom or dad worked for free? you would've grew up under some bridge, in some card box-that someone threw over the bridge-and you would've had all your teeth fall out-because you couldn't afford toothpaste-before the age of 18.
Extreme, I know, close to reality, could've been. I finally got tired of people asking me to do stuff for free. I'm begining to speak up-finally-and tell them just what I think of working for free. I don't lower my prices anymore, if they can't afford it-oh well-get someone else. I mean, if Vogue or FLAUNT or NYLON or Dutch magazine asked me to do work for free, I would, only because I know millions of people would see my work, and that would lead to potential clients.
It's weird how people think your rude, just because you tell them NO. Well, I have one thing to say and it has 4 letters and ends with-THEM.
Willy Branlund I so agree with you man.
Model
Kali Doom
Posts: 136
Nashville, Arkansas, US
The model definitely shouldn't have been rude, but I have this horrific urge to contact you and ask you for a TFP shoot.
Photographer
Robert Ector
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
lol. I wouldnt be mad if you asked. My only problem is when you respond back with an attitude. BTW..I like your port.
Photographer
RGK Photography
Posts: 4695
Wilton, Connecticut, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
you show me where in the tax code it allows the deduction and I'll back down.
that's right, you can't. Ok, as I said, you show me the ruling that says you can't, or the tax code which defines what is deductable.
|
