Demarcus Freeman wrote:

We were talking about your feelings about your car crash, but.. in general, yes.  Feelings are temporary and irrational.  They're interpretations of our perspectives, and perspectives differ drastically.  Not only that, but as we age, our perspectives involve.  How can you base arguments on something that's so fluid?  Facts don't change.

You may call my proof laughable, but.. you have yet to talk about the facts of the matter.  You got into a car crash.  You kept driving in the same manner you always have.  You just keep talking in "but"'s.  I know I kept driving, but...  but.. but...

No more "but"'s.  You kept driving in the same manner that you always had.. that *does* prove my point even though you seem to be unable to admit it.

I did not keep driving in the same manner. My manner of driving was quite different. Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to draw a picture?

You're right, facts don't change. And the fact is, some photographers are predators. She has the right to be careful.

Avicdar wrote:
I have nothing to contribute to the primary point of this thread, escort or no escort, but...

Its interesting that Dmitry holds the copyright on several of the OP's images.  To me that suggests that he is a photographer.

So, for a slightly different angle on this...

Photographers - would you want another photographer to be there watching you work?

This is one thing that DOESN'T bother me. Ever had an assistant? An assistant, by definition, is a photographer who's there to watch and learn and help me as a price for his education. No, someone watching what I do and learning to adapt my technique doesn't bother me a bit.

e-string wrote:

Why do you assume that I think everyone else is going to do it to me? Are you really that egocentric? It's not about you at all. It's not about my upcoming shoots. I never said I suspect each photographer of it; I have no idea where you're getting this idea that I'm calling all photographers predators. You just don't know when it could happen again.. some are more suspect than others. I love most of my photographers. I'm close friends with quite a few of them.

Two is two too many. The fact that you want to write it off like it's nothing says a lot about you. Let the girl be wary. What's so wrong with being careful? Nothing. If you're so respectable, why are you so offended? I already stated that I don't bring an escort. So obviously I'm not THAT uptight about it.

You used your experiences to support her argument of bringing an escort which is based on her fear that because one photographer was a creep, all photographers are suspect.  That is offensive.

You also presented your two bad experiences as the only ones that mattered.. I pointed out that you forgot to include any information about all of the good ones that you've had.  If it's two out of 3, then yes.. I can see why you'd be worried.  If it's two out of a hundred.. then to be worried is....?

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

You used your experiences to support her argument of bringing an escort which is based on her fear that because one photographer was a creep, all photographers are suspect.  That is offensive.

You also presented your two bad experiences as the only ones that mattered.. I pointed out that you forgot to include any information about all of the good ones that you've had.  If it's two out of 3, then yes.. I can see why you'd be worried.  If it's two out of a hundred.. then to be worried is....?

Wow.

Aperture Photographics wrote:

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
LOL, I don't ride them motherfuckers either. 
I want to make this point.  I don't require escorts.  I know it seems like I do, but I don't.  I just think that models shouldn't be blasted if they want to bring one.  If you, as a photographer don't allow them, then tell her sorry.  And move on.  Trying to convice us that you are trustworthy and your thousands of photos were taken without an escort, etc. doesn't help.

Just to be fair..
The argument on BOTH SIDES of the fence is pointless..

MODELS and PHOTGRAPHERS..

Set your guidelines and stick to them...BOTH SIDES..DUH!

Vance wrote:

Aperture Photographics wrote:

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
LOL, I don't ride them motherfuckers either. 
I want to make this point.  I don't require escorts.  I know it seems like I do, but I don't.  I just think that models shouldn't be blasted if they want to bring one.  If you, as a photographer don't allow them, then tell her sorry.  And move on.  Trying to convice us that you are trustworthy and your thousands of photos were taken without an escort, etc. doesn't help.

Just to be fair..
The argument on BOTH SIDES of the fence is pointless..

MODELS and PHOTGRAPHERS..

Set your guidelines and stick to them...BOTH SIDES..DUH!

He speaks the truth.  But I think people just like to argue.  That's why I'm here.

Star wrote:
I usually ask before touching a model, that is common courtesy.

Star

I usually ask before touching myself.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:
You used your experiences to support her argument of bringing an escort which is based on her fear that because one photographer was a creep, all photographers are suspect.  That is offensive.

You also presented your two bad experiences as the only ones that mattered.. I pointed out that you forgot to include any information about all of the good ones that you've had.  If it's two out of 3, then yes.. I can see why you'd be worried.  If it's two out of a hundred.. then to be worried is....?

I know plenty of respectable photographers, and they wouldn't be offended at all if someone asked to bring an escort. The fact that it offends you so much makes me wonder if your character is truly as commendable as theirs. You don't seem to care about the few occasions where models DO get molested. Ever hear of "better safe than sorry"? It's not that we assume all photographers are bad. She just wants to be safe. Are you really so dense that you don't understand a desire to be safe from sexual assault?

Why is a seatbelt reasonable as a safety precaution but bringing an escort is not? They both help protect against something that probably won't happen, but are very good to have around if something does. If it's just a 2 out of 100 chance, why not just go without your seatbelt?

I never said those two were the only ones that mattered. I said I love many of my photographers (not at first because they're respectable and therefore not relevant to this thread). You are very selective about what you read in my responses. You ignore the things that contradict your little "proof".

e-string wrote:

How is it irrational when this is something that happens so often? Why are you so against taking a safety precaution? Are you one of the bad guys?

And I know you're going to try to say that because I said "often", I mean most photographers. Well that's not what I mean. Two for me is two too many. One for Rabbit is one too many. This happens to many models. Get it?

You're full of it lol.  You can't redefine "often" to suit your purposes.  It is also not true that it happens to "many" models.  It happens to some models.  Often and many are terms used to describe things that happen more often than not.

Anyways heh.  This has been fun, and I dubb thee a worthy adversary.  Maybe a little biased, but.. still someone fun to argue with.  See ya next topic haha. 

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

You're full of it lol.  You can't redefine "often" to suit your purposes.  It is also not true that it happens to "many" models.  It happens to some models.  Often and many are terms used to describe things that happen more often than not.

Anyways heh.  This has been fun, and I dubb thee a worthy adversary.  Maybe a little biased, but.. still someone fun to argue with.  See ya next topic haha. 

Two is too many and too often. Get it yet? Probably not. Even once is enough to merit wariness and a desire to be safe with an escort present.

Rossi Photography wrote:
Sorry to hear this happened to you. I can relate, though. And I'm a photographer (female)! I was at a shoot. There were two of us photoraphers to each shoot this particular model. Well, the other photographer wanted to photograph me while we were waiting on the model to get ready. I was like, what the hell.. why not. Well, in the middle of the shoot, this so-called professional photographer (who is also a member on this site!) said he had to adjust his lights. So, I started talking to the model, looking off to the side. I was in boy shorts and a top. Before I know it... happened so fast, I didn't even realize it... this asshole is behind me pulling down my shorts saying, "I'm just going to slide these off...". I freaked!!! Needless to say that was the end of the shoot. Have chosen not to have any contact what so ever with this jerk off of a photographer (who I refer to as a GWC -guy with camera - rather than a "professional photographer... who I believe to be a piece of shit, who does 99% TFCD work just to get young 18/19 year old naive girls to get nude for him and his camera), I tell all the models I know to stay the hell away from him.

Since when is it okay for a photographer to take it upon themself to remove a model's clothing???

and you called the police immediately, yes?

oldguysrule wrote:

and you called the police immediately, yes?

I kick myself in the ass every time I think about it for not doing so.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

Oh goodness.  I'm going to have to sound sexist to continue.  Please excuse me Susan B. Anthony.  Females are irrational and emotional.  They are also the bulk of the models on this site.  Preaching logic and facts and blah blah blah doesn't help.  It doesn't make the emotions go away.  Sorry.  If you do not believe me, then please compare the responses of the men and the women regarding this issue.  No this is not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good 70/30 split without me actually doing the math. 
Now, paranoia does affect the facts of the matter.  She had a bad experience, it made her paranoid about working with photographers, she brings an escort.  Hey!  That just affected things!  Wow.

Funny heh.  The last sentence in my post before I erased it was:  I know that this is a point that we're going to be unable to agree on simply because men and women are built differently.

For women feelings are real.
For men facts are king.

I hear a certain female radio psychiatrist say this very often, and... I agree with you both.

oldguysrule wrote:
and you called the police immediately, yes?

Rossi Photography wrote:
I kick myself in the ass every time I think about it for not doing so.

crucial to do so. having not done does several things among them...
1) 'they' believe they won't get caught... and may escalate over time. if the individual is sick, they will surely get worse.
2) the believability of your story is immediately suspect. as i've said, there are those who cry rape when none has occured. (and yes this is a turn of phrase. not saying you are crying rape)

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

Oh goodness.  I'm going to have to sound sexist to continue.  Please excuse me Susan B. Anthony.  Females are irrational and emotional.  They are also the bulk of the models on this site.  Preaching logic and facts and blah blah blah doesn't help.  It doesn't make the emotions go away.  Sorry.  If you do not believe me, then please compare the responses of the men and the women regarding this issue.  No this is not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good 70/30 split without me actually doing the math. 
Now, paranoia does affect the facts of the matter.  She had a bad experience, it made her paranoid about working with photographers, she brings an escort.  Hey!  That just affected things!  Wow.

Melissa, this quote is a powerful one and one some of have overlooked.
Men and women think different.  What is logical and smart for a man may not
work for a women.  Its not that women are irrational although some are but
they think in a very different way then men.  Hey lets be honest.  Women
often feel vulnerable and it tends to be women who get sexually assaulted.
While statically speaking a women has more to fear from casual friends or from
date rape most aren't think about statistics when they get that TFP shoot request.
I'm truly not for or against escorts.  Each situation is unique for example a
photographers like Vance has shot with lots of models with no problems.  He
has lots of models on his profile and good comments.  Its a safe bet he's cool.
Good judgment is key.  However we should try and listen to each others concerns.
We may not think they are valid but lets not just dismiss them.

oldguysrule wrote:

oldguysrule wrote:
and you called the police immediately, yes?

crucial to do so. having not done does several things among them...
1) 'they' believe they won't get caught... and may escalate over time. if the individual is sick, they will surely get worse.
2) the believability of your story is immediately suspect. as i've said, there are those who cry rape when none has occured. (and yes this is a turn of phrase. not saying you are crying rape)

I know... you're completely right.

Rossi Photography wrote:
Sorry to hear this happened to you. I can relate, though. And I'm a photographer (female)! I was at a shoot. There were two of us photoraphers to each shoot this particular model. Well, the other photographer wanted to photograph me while we were waiting on the model to get ready. I was like, what the hell.. why not. Well, in the middle of the shoot, this so-called professional photographer (who is also a member on this site!) said he had to adjust his lights. So, I started talking to the model, looking off to the side. I was in boy shorts and a top. Before I know it... happened so fast, I didn't even realize it... this asshole is behind me pulling down my shorts saying, "I'm just going to slide these off...". I freaked!!! Needless to say that was the end of the shoot. Have chosen not to have any contact what so ever with this jerk off of a photographer (who I refer to as a GWC -guy with camera - rather than a "professional photographer... who I believe to be a piece of shit, who does 99% TFCD work just to get young 18/19 year old naive girls to get nude for him and his camera), I tell all the models I know to stay the hell away from him.

Since when is it okay for a photographer to take it upon themself to remove a model's clothing???

That is horrifying.

I always ask the model firsit I can touch them, and it is usually to adjust a strand of hair or a piece of clothing - especially if it is going to reveal some skin a little more. In that case, I always ask them first if it is OK to see more skin and let them see exactly where my hand is going and I always make sure I don't come in contact with their skin at all. Once they see they can trust me they usually ask me just to arrange what I want rather than tell them.

I have such respect for models - as do 90% of the photographers - it is just appalling to me there are photographers who do this.

Melissa Vultaggio wrote:

Come on do you not have anything better to do other than to down others? Why do you need a place or a time or the circumstances? This happened!!!!

Who says it happened?  You?  The OP?  Who?  Given the media's fascination with scandal and debauchery we all would have heard about such a case if it were at all recent.  Unless the person making the claim can point out basic details [who?  where?  when?]  simply saying "This happened!!!" is the most pointless, anectdotal boilerplate, which is precisely what needs to be avoided in a discussion such as this.  Asking for more information [which the OP should have if he's going to bring it up] is not "downing" anyone.

oldguysrule wrote:

oldguysrule wrote:
and you called the police immediately, yes?

crucial to do so. having not done does several things among them...
1) 'they' believe they won't get caught... and may escalate over time. if the individual is sick, they will surely get worse.
2) the believability of your story is immediately suspect. as i've said, there are those who cry rape when none has occured. (and yes this is a turn of phrase. not saying you are crying rape)

Being a female and assualted, most times and cases go to show that the men make us the women feel as if it were our faults that it happened. In all reality its not what we ask for in any point or time. It took me almost 2 months before I said anything to anybody about my assault. Yes, he is actually doing time in jail for what he has done, thats niether here or there. The point is, is that we need to feel safe. There are alot of men out there that claim to be professional and really aren't, but all they want is to see just how far it can go. I wasn't the only one!

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Funny heh.  The last sentence in my post before I erased it was:  I know that this is a point that we're going to be unable to agree on simply because men and women are built differently.

For women feelings are real.
For men facts are king.

I hear a certain female radio psychiatrist say this very often, and... I agree with you both.

Could you get my boyfriend to agree too?  He still tries to use logic on me.  And he doesn't listen to Dr. Laura.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Trying to convice us that you are trustworthy and your thousands of photos were taken without an escort, etc. doesn't help.

As I said earlier, any model who requires convincing isn't a model I want to work with.  That's not a blast...it's simply a fact.  People work with me because they want to, not because i convinced them of anything.

Greg Kolack wrote:
That is horrifying.

I always ask the model firsit I can touch them, and it is usually to adjust a strand of hair or a piece of clothing - especially if it is going to reveal some skin a little more. In that case, I always ask them first if it is OK to see more skin and let them see exactly where my hand is going and I always make sure I don't come in contact with their skin at all. Once they see they can trust me they usually ask me just to arrange what I want rather than tell them.

I have such respect for models - as do 90% of the photographers - it is just appalling to me there are photographers who do this.

This guy manages close to 20 models over at OMP. All young 18/19/20 years old. They all seem to be just so crazy about him. He's a very good manipulator, I say... I don't know if he thought because we were supposed to be friends and that I'm a photographer, not a model, that he was thinking he could get away with it, or what. But in my opinion it shows in his work what he's all about. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt, rather than basing my opinion of him all based on the work he does. I guess I was wrong, eh... and should have gone with my first impression of him.

Yes, I was a dumbass. But never again...

Melissa Vultaggio wrote:

Being a female and assualted, most times and cases go to show that the men make us the women feel as if it were our faults that it happened. In all reality its not what we ask for in any point or time. It took me almost 2 months before I said anything to anybody about my assault. Yes, he is actually doing time in jail for what he has done, thats niether here or there. The point is, is that we need to feel safe. There are alot of men out there that claim to be professional and really aren't, but all they want is to see just how far it can go. I wasn't the only one!

Were you assaulted on a photo shoot?  If not, then why hold your next photographer liable for something he/she had nothing to do with?  A model stole a camera from me once, but I certainly don't expect every model I work with to do the same.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

Could you get my boyfriend to agree too?  He still tries to use logic on me.  And he doesn't listen to Dr. Laura.

Dont get it twisted Melissa..

While we know your feelings are real..We still proceed on facts...I hate emotional responces as they tend to lead to no solutions...
Emotions are wack when they lack logical guidence....
That is why this argument is pointless..
It mostly boils down to FEMALE models against male photgraphers..

Food and Prey.....More emotion and fear rather than logic...

I wont bother aplogizing for being a man...:-)

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Melissa, this quote is a powerful one and one some of have overlooked.
Men and women think different.  What is logical and smart for a man may not
work for a women.  Its not that women are irrational although some are but
they think in a very different way then men.  Hey lets be honest.  Women
often feel vulnerable and it tends to be women who get sexually assaulted.
While statically speaking a women has more to fear from casual friends or from
date rape most aren't think about statistics when they get that TFP shoot request.
I'm truly not for or against escorts.  Each situation is unique for example a
photographers like Vance has shot with lots of models with no problems.  He
has lots of models on his profile and good comments.  Its a safe bet he's cool.
Good judgment is key.  However we should try and listen to each others concerns.
We may not think they are valid but lets not just dismiss them.

Thank you Tony.  And in my case, it doesn't help that I was raised by Worst Case Scenario Woman, my own personal super hero of a mother.  I've worked hard to overcome her paranoid influence. 

Vance wrote:
Not to open a can of NEW worms..But I have to ask this question..

Old Guy brings up a god point..

For all of you models who have been assaulted or touched in ways that are not appropriate...I WONDER....How many have filed charges?  I would think if you are truly concerend with the well being of ALL models, it would be a god idea to file charges in all events.

Just curious..I know if you violate me in any way..I will use the legal system to chew you a new asshole pronto!

Again not to try and speak for all women but I can imagine some feeling
embarrassed or ashamed this being if nudes were done.  I do think that more
women need to be assertive.  Don't want the photographer copping a cheap
feel.  Slap his ass or at least SAY something.  Just don't stew about it. Do
something about it.  Maybe the photographer meant nothing by it.  Maybe he
did but just don't be mad and then come here with your report or tell your
friends.  React!  If some stranger touched your naughty bits on the street
you'd kick his butt.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

As I said earlier, any model who requires convincing isn't a model I want to work with.  That's not a blast...it's simply a fact.  People work with me because they want to, not because i convinced them of anything.

And that is your right.  But I meant convincing on the boards, not on the phone with any particular model.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Were you assaulted on a photo shoot?  If not, then why hold your next photographer liable for something he/she had nothing to do with?  A model stole a camera from me once, but I certainly don't expect every model I work with to do the same.

I never said that I hold every photographer liable. I hold that one person responisble. But because this has happened, I bring a excort to all shoots to prevent it from happening again. I need that security.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

And that is your right.  But I meant convincing on the boards, not on the phone with any particular model.

Trying to convince anyone on the boards of anything would be even more pointless...That's why I'm about to go back to the "addie/woodchipper" thread and make fun of all this hysterical boilerplate.

Vance wrote:

Dont get it twisted Melissa..

While we know your feelings are real..We still proceed on facts...I hate emotional responces as they tend to lead to no solutions...
Emotions are wack when they lack logical guidence....
That is why this argument is pointless..
It mostly boils down to FEMALE models against male photgraphers..

Food and Prey.....More emotion and fear rather than logic...

I wont bother aplogizing for being a man...:-)

  Well, you shouldn't apologize.  Then you'd be one of those annoying girly men that I like to walk all over.  In stilettos. 

Melissa Vultaggio wrote:

I never said that I hold every photographer liable. I hold that one person responisble. But because this has happened, I bring a excort to all shoots to prevent it from happening again. I need that security.

Even with female photographers?

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Trying to convince anyone on the boards of anything would be even more pointless...That's why I'm about to go back to the "addie/woodchipper" thread and make fun of all this hysterical boilerplate.

Have fun!!  I'm glad they brought it back for you guys.

Melissa Vultaggio wrote:

I never said that I hold every photographer liable. I hold that one person responisble. But because this has happened, I bring a excort to all shoots to prevent it from happening again. I need that security.

If you need security, fine.  But as I stated earlier in the thread, if someone is really out to get you, they've probably already made plans for dealing with your escort.  The "security" you feel is largely illusory unless the photographer was trustworthy in the first place.

Imagine how you'd regard me if I hired a 200 lb "escort" with a language barrier to hold my camera bag while you were around...because someone stole a camera from me six years ago.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
If you need security, fine.  But as I stated earlier in the thread, if someone is really out to get you, they've probably already made plans for dealing with your escort.  The "security" you feel is largely illusory unless the photographer was trustworthy in the first place.

Imagine how you'd regard me if I hired a 200 lb "escort" with a language barrier to hold my camera bag while you were around...because someone stole a camera from me six years ago.

Melvin YOU EVEN READ my responds for god sake ...i told you all long time he speak english better then some photgraphers i work with, better then some americans ( please no offence intended) Folks Stop calling some one guerilla beacose hes big, and stop saying about hes lang barrier which dont exist....damn it folks dont just grab top of each post if you like to post something usefull read all topics all posts and then replay.

Vance wrote:
Not to open a can of NEW worms..But I have to ask this question..

Old Guy brings up a god point..

For all of you models who have been assaulted or touched in ways that are not appropriate...I WONDER....How many have filed charges?  I would think if you are truly concerend with the well being of ALL models, it would be a god idea to file charges in all events.

Just curious..I know if you violate me in any way..I will use the legal system to chew you a new asshole pronto!

One of mine was only verbal, yet it still made me never want to see his ugly face again. I didn't see it as legally serious, however. I just tell models to avoid him.

The physical one made a move on me but did not quite touch me. He almost did and I told him no. He kept asking to do various things, I kept saying no. He exposed himself - perhaps the only thing I could/should have reported him for doing.

Vance wrote:
Tony..

Hmmmm..

Well, from what I have read..the fears that some have had are based on past experience, either from a personal first hand account or because of a "story they heard"

So, to those first hand accounts..If it was such a violation..was there a report filed? If not, you have just done a dis service to all future models.

Embarrassed? So ego is more important than protection? Embarrassed? NUDES? It's photgraphy, that doesnt mean anyone gives up their rights as a person to be violated.
If they are too embarrassed because nudes were involved they are in the wrong business and where not looking at the shoot as a professional venture.

Again, all this banter is rather pointless when many of the parties involved actually show any true thoughf into the realities of prevention and accountability, instead it's fear and parinoia based reations.

Still, quite a fun thread to banter about in....

About the embarrassment.  Think about how many rape cases get handled in court.  Even though it's against the law to blame the victim, it happens.  Look at the Duke case.  Now we have no idea what really happened, but many people took it upon themselves to say that since the accuser was a stripper she somehow brought it upon herself.  In other cases, it's what the victim was wearing, or how she was acting, or she was drinking, or her sexual history and number of partners.  In date rape, excuses like "She was coming on to me!" and whatnot.  Now, I don't know this personally, but I do know a girl in college who was raped and she didn't tell anyone about it for a year, until after the guy graduated.  Why?  It's irrational emotions again.  It's natural (though misplaced) to feel embarassed after being violated.  Think:  If I were a nude model and had been shooting with a photographer in a hotel room and he assaulted me in some way, not even rape, I would instantly feel like no one would believe me.  It's he said/she said to begin with.  Then, I was naked voluntarily with this man.  I've probably done nude modeling before.  And now I've been violated.  Aren't the majority of police officers men?  I'm not sure.  But now I have to get over my intense shame and other emotions to go to a man and tell him that a man in front of whom I disrobed touched me inappropriately?  That isn't ego.  That's just how it happens sometimes.  Damn feelings getting in the way.