Rabbit86 wrote:
so budy 6'3" , 200lbs russian dont ask a lot of questions for him was enought to see my face , lucky "photographer" i stay betwen him and Dmitry ( my friend) other wise "pro" would probably end up in hispital and Dmitry in jail.

Reason #1 I don't allow 'escorts' or 'friends' on shoots.

What's to stop 'Dmitry' from deciding he likes my nice shiny camera?  Since, Dmitry "dont ask a lot of questions" I might get the wrong idea when he just picks it up to "inspect" it.  With the wrong idea, like say that he will break it over my head, I might just do something rash like snatch it out of Dmitry's hand... man would that be a mistake... and then Dmitry being 'insulted' might just decide bonking me on the head is the proper operating procedure for a Canon 10D

Look, I'm sure you're a perfectly nice girl, but until you learn to check references and ask proper questions before a shoot I don't want to shoot with you anyway.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:
What you people don't seem to get is that you can't take an isolated incident and use it as a basis for how you interact with an entire profession.  In ALL other areas of your lives you are capable of weighing a single happening against the combination of the rest of your experiences... why can't you do the same when it comes to photography?

If you get into a car accident(a true assault on your life) on the way to the grocery store, are you going to:
A.) Stop going to the grocery store
B.) Stop driving all together

If those questions seem stupid to you.. well.. now you know how I feel about the "This one photographer made me feel uncomfortable, so now I need to bring an escort because... blah, blah" argument.

It's a single occurance with a single asshole.. move on.

I was hit by a drunk driver.
For many months afterwards, I jumped every single time I looked in my rear view mirror and thought someone wasn't braking fast enough behind me and might hit me.

It's not that different. If you had been violated sexually, you probably wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
...

Models shouldn't have to weigh their good experiences against the bad, let'st stop the bad ones all together.

...

The *only* way I can see making that happen Alan is if models did what they should all be doing and #1) check the list of models the photographer has shot and ask the models questions #2) Have a full conversation with the photographer discussing the shoot, and have a clear mental picture and written account of what you are expecting to happen at the shoot.

e-string wrote:

I was hit by a drunk driver.
For many months afterwards, I jumped every single time I looked in my rear view mirror and thought someone wasn't braking fast enough behind me and might hit me.

It's not that different. If you had been violated sexually, you probably wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

I agree.  Sneering logic isn't always the way to get through to someone.  Irrational fears are still fears.  Would you tell a woman who'd been raped by a man who broke in through a window that it was stupid to board up all her windows and sleep with a doberman?  No.  Dial it back some and you have this girl's story.  Yes, it could have been prevented, but that doesn't help her now.
I was in an accident once in Florida in the rain.  The rain wasn't the cause of the accident, but guess how anxious I got for a good year after whenever it rained and I was in a car?  In New Orleans during hurricane season.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
My problem with this is that, in the majority of situations, a model doesn't really need an escort.

I agree.
I totally understand where the OP is coming from and I respect her opinion.  But my curious mind needs to ask .. If she hadn't brought her friend, couldn't she have done the same thing by running out of the photographer's apartment, only kept going?

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I agree.
I totally understand where the OP is coming from and I respect her opinion.  But my curious mind needs to ask .. If she hadn't brought her friend, couldn't she have done the same thing by running out of the photographer's apartment, only kept going?

This is also true.  Was he really gonna chase her around the place?

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I agree.
I totally understand where the OP is coming from and I respect her opinion.  But my curious mind needs to ask .. If she hadn't brought her friend, couldn't she have done the same thing by running out of the photographer's apartment, only kept going?

and how would she get her purse?

Star

Kaitlin Lara wrote:
Did you ask for references? I always ask for references and I have yet to have a photographer do anything even remotely unwanted to me. Not saying model's shouldn't be allowed to bring escorts...that should be something decided by individual people...but checking references is a really important, and really easy way to help ensure your safety.

I'm kind of iffy about that.
I always check references and hope I'm not missing anything.

For instance, I worked with a photographer once and our shoot went great!  He was one of the frist people I worked with and I was very thankful for his courtesy, professionalism, and the photos he provided.
Someone on this site saw his work in my portfolio [It's not there anymore.. Just because it was kind of old, really] and told me that his model friend had a pretty bad experience working with him.
So, the problem with references is that the photographer/model gives you contact information only for people the shoot went well with.  I know that if I'd flaked on a couple photographers, I wouldn't want to give them as references.

Star wrote:

and how would she get her purse?

Star

She could come back later with the cops? 
Or she could have grabbed it on the way out.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I agree.
I totally understand where the OP is coming from and I respect her opinion.  But my curious mind needs to ask .. If she hadn't brought her friend, couldn't she have done the same thing by running out of the photographer's apartment, only kept going?

One thing to consider is she may not have been in a position to go running further. Because she does nude modeling she may well have not been wearing anything at the time, which in some ways would limit her mobility (so to speak). Obviously I don't know, but I can see if a model was nude with a groping photographer a large escort might have been the only solution.

  In my own experience I've not ever had a problem with an escort, although I know many people have and I prefer to work with a model one on one or with a stylist / makeup artist (I really do hate a crowd; photography is not a spectator sport). I also know that I'm not there to grope or try to pick up a model... I'm only there as a photographer and that is how I conduct myself. It's unfortunate that there are those who don't...

  -P-

e-string wrote:

I was hit by a drunk driver.
For many months afterwards, I jumped every single time I looked in my rear view mirror and thought someone wasn't braking fast enough behind me and might hit me.

It's not that different. If you had been violated sexually, you probably wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

You just proved my point.  In spite of what happened in your crash.. you continued to drive.  Why?  Because despite your irrational paranoia you knew that it was a single isolated incident and it didn't mean that you were going to be hit every time you got into a car.

Also.. why are you playing the "sexually assaulted" card?  She didn't even say where he touched her, and suddenly you're escalating the incident to sexual assault as if she was raped?  Please.

Pat Thielen wrote:
One thing to consider is she may not have been in a position to go running further. Because she does nude modeling she may well have not been wearing anything at the time, which in some ways would limit her mobility (so to speak). Obviously I don't know, but I can see if a model was nude with a groping photographer a large escort might have been the only solution.

One thing is for certain... if she did go running to the lobby of some hotel in the nude she'd get attention and service from the management REAL quick!

Demarcus Freeman wrote:
What you people don't seem to get is that you can't take an isolated incident and use it as a basis for how you interact with an entire profession.  In ALL other areas of your lives you are capable of weighing a single happening against the combination of the rest of your experiences... why can't you do the same when it comes to photography?

If you get into a car accident(a true assault on your life) on the way to the grocery store, are you going to:
A.) Stop going to the grocery store
B.) Stop driving all together

If those questions seem stupid to you.. well.. now you know how I feel about the "This one photographer made me feel uncomfortable, so now I need to bring an escort because... blah, blah" argument.

It's a single occurance with a single asshole.. move on.

This is my exact complaint about the photographers. You expect us to just trust you some man we've never meant when we're obviously outmatched in size in an isolated area, but you do not trust us to bring a reasonable escort with us for our own safety all because of a few bad experiences you have had. kettle black.

Rabbit86 wrote:
Once at very beginning i was with my friend at shoot photogrpaher ask him to leave not just outside door but go outside building and come back 3 hours later, God bless my budy who stay on 3rd floor of hotel where photo shoot was  happening , in first 40 minut was ok but then so call " photographer" start squizing hes hands where they not should be without even asking, strat pushing me around like a toy placing and holding hands on areas i dont feel COOl with . When i ask to stop he so call "pro" tell me tha he talk to my budy and he say it would be ok with me to do this kind "work" good thing my budy was in corridor beacose i have to run out to call him in ( dont whant to tell you how i was feeling and that i was ollst crying) so budy 6'3" , 200lbs russian dont ask a lot of questions for him was enought to see my face , lucky "photographer" i stay betwen him and Dmitry ( my friend) other wise "pro" would probably end up in hispital and Dmitry in jail.
So please forgive me professionals ( dont mean to sound it offencive to you all i know 99% of you best good guys and very pro on shoot) if dont feel ok sence this day to stay alone with photographer in room even if it second or third session , i just feel very comfy and relax when isee my friend in shadow of studio.

Rabbit.  I understand what you're saying.   

If a model wants or needs to have an escort, that is absolutely her choice.  She should know it may limit who she can work with or what kind of modeling she can do, but her choice.  Even with your friend going with you, you should ALWAYS check out who you are going to be working with.  Your example was of a guy who got his hands on you.  But what if he intended worse.  A 6'3" 200 lb Russian just hits the ground with a larger thud when he's shot in the back of the head.


As a female photographer, I chose not to work with people who are so afraid of me they need an escort.   That's my integrity level to the work I do, I don't want to work around fear or someone that fears me.   And no offense but why is it fair that you get Dmitry and all I have is my M1 carbine, a Sig Sauer and a vintage bayonet that was taken from a dead soldier in the battle of Verdun?

I am not a model.  But I am a female.  And even if I was a male, I simply wouldn't work with anyone I hadn't fully checked out.  I don't know what kind of modeling you want or have to do, I'm sure there are some people out there so desperate for money they'd take any job offer.   But I don't feel it's worth your's or Dmitry's safety to work with anyone who doesn't pass your investigation.

Star wrote:

and how would she get her purse?

Star

I don't think the situation was that dramatic.  He started touch posing her(she doesn't say where), and she didn't like it.  She told him to stop, he called her an amateur(or something.. that part was a little.. garbled) and said he'd gotten permission.  She freaked out and ran for the door.

I don't see anything there that says that she couldn't have calmly gathered up her stuff and walked out the door.

SLE Photography wrote:
I might point out in this case it's ENTIRELY possible the model & the photographer were having an issue due to communication & lan guage barriers, which might've also made it harder for her to check references.
However, I KNOW I don't want some huge thug I can't communicate with (unless my model Shurya's around to translate, since she speaks Russian & I don't) hovering & possibly beating the crap out of me because I can't explain something was a misunderstanding.

Oh, right.  I forgot about reading that in her bio a few days ago.  I think it's good for her to bring a friend as translator and I guess that would make him double as an escort.

little apple blossom wrote:
You expect us to just trust you some man we've never [met]...

Yep... and I expect to be able to trust you with my camera equipment and the knowledge of where it is stored in my studio and what hours I'm usually there.

little apple blossom wrote:

This is my exact complaint about the photographers. You expect us to just trust you some man we've never meant when we're obviously outmatched in size in an isolated area, but you do not trust us to bring a reasonable escort with us for our own safety all because of a few bad experiences you have had. kettle black.

It's not just M photographer F model phenomena.  I experienced this down in Southern CA where the same amount of fear existed from a few F models towards me.  Now, pretty much every model towers over me and is much stronger.   I probably, if pressed could bite their kneecaps in a brawl, but honestly I think it goes beyond just M vs F dynamic.  There are a number of people who sincerely are fearful of strangers, and of photographers.   To me then, if that's where you're coming from, you might want to consider a different profession, in the same way that being short and only able to dribble food, I never considered the NBA as a career choice.

little apple blossom wrote:
This is my exact complaint about the photographers. You expect us to just trust you some man we've never meant when we're obviously outmatched in size in an isolated area, but you do not trust us to bring a reasonable escort with us for our own safety all because of a few bad experiences you have had. kettle black.

What I don't understand is how your "reasonable escort" is going to help you if the "photographer" is really the threat you're so afraid of.  Do you really think that such a conniving assailant isn't going to be ready for your escort too?  If I'm really the master criminal/manipulator you suspect me of being, any feeling of "safety" you may have will be largely illusory, perhaps even making it easier for me to get the upper hand, as you won't be expecting it.

I've personally never had a bad experience with an escort -- I don't really care if a model brings one, as the people i work with are usually smart enough to avoid bringing anyone who's going to be disruptive.  This is the part where due dilligence comes into play.  I'm very choosy about who I work with, ruling out any dealings with models who view a shoot as a potentially life-threatening situation.  That is to say, before a model checks me out...I've already checked them out.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

What I don't understand is how your "reasonable escort" is going to help you if the "photographer" is really the threat you're so afraid of.  Do you really think that such a conniving assailant isn't going to be ready for your escort too?  If I'm really the master criminal/manipulator you suspect me of being, any feeling of "safety" you may have will be largely illusory, perhaps even making it easier for me to get the upper hand, as you won't be expecting it.

I've personally never had a bad experience with an escort -- I don't really care if a model brings one, as the people i work with are usually smart enough to avoid bringing anyone who's going to be disruptive.  This is the part where due dilligence comes into play.  I'm very choosy about who I work with, ruling out any dealings with models who view a shoot as a potentially life-threatening situation.  That is to say, before a model checks me out...I've already checked them out.

it wasnt abot help after issue it more about it not gone happend if some one  present at shoot.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I'm kind of iffy about that.
I always check references and hope I'm not missing anything.

For instance, I worked with a photographer once and our shoot went great!  He was one of the frist people I worked with and I was very thankful for his courtesy, professionalism, and the photos he provided.
Someone on this site saw his work in my portfolio [It's not there anymore.. Just because it was kind of old, really] and told me that his model friend had a pretty bad experience working with him.
So, the problem with references is that the photographer/model gives you contact information only for people the shoot went well with.  I know that if I'd flaked on a couple photographers, I wouldn't want to give them as references.

Well I'm not saying that that's going to guarantee your safety, but neither will an escort. If the photographer pulls a gun or has a gang of hooligans with him/her, I don't care how big your escort is...you're screwed. But odds are...if a photographer is a complete creep, he's not going to have any good references. Besides...I don't know about other models...but I never let a photographer know if I was displeased with the shooting experience because I want to be given as a reference...especially if their work wasn't good or if they seemed a little skeevy.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

You just proved my point.  In spite of what happened in your crash.. you continued to drive.  Why?  Because despite your irrational paranoia you knew that it was a single isolated incident and it didn't mean that you were going to be hit every time you got into a car.

Also.. why are you playing the "sexually assaulted" card?  She didn't even say where he touched her, and suddenly you're escalating the incident to sexual assault as if she was raped?  Please.

Well it wasnt touch as i say it was squeezing parts of my body , squizeeeing hands bewten parts of my body ...and comon when photographer graqb your breasts and hold them for longer then 5-10 seconds that required to move you topose it does seen like  setting up the pose from any angle ...

Rabbit86 wrote:

Well it wasnt touch as i say it was squeezing parts of my body , squizeeeing hands bewten parts of my body ...and comon when photographer graqb your breasts and hold them for longer then 5-10 seconds that required to move you topose it does seen like  setting up the pose from any angle ...

Seriously... why would you let some guy 'adjust' your tits *at all*.  Your tits don't adjust, they're not that big!

little apple blossom wrote:

This is my exact complaint about the photographers. You expect us to just trust you some man we've never meant when we're obviously outmatched in size in an isolated area, but you do not trust us to bring a reasonable escort with us for our own safety all because of a few bad experiences you have had. kettle black.

A 6'3" 200lb aggressive russian is a "reasonable escort"?  You seem to be big on seeing things from the other persons' side, so...  tell me why I should let *two* people I don't know(who now have me grossly outmatched btw) into my space with all of my expensive equipment. 

Sorry, but the playing field is *never* fair.. at least you have the option of checking me out first.  Who am I going to call to get references for the "no questions asked" 200lb gorilla with a language barrier and a "protective" personality?

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
My problem with this is that, in the majority of situations, a model doesn't really need an escort.  However, as we see from the OP, there are girls who have had bad experiences.

The answer is not to criticize the model who is uncomfortable because she brings someone along, it is to find ways to create an environment where it isn't necessary.

In the mainstream, models are in a studio with a crew.  On the net, it is often a party of two.  Models shouldn't have to weigh their good experiences against the bad, let'st stop the bad ones all together.

Just my thoughts.  There are too many threads trying to explain to models why yoru comfort as a photographer is more important than having the model feel safe.

Very well said.  That is why I seldom work alone with a model, whether it is in the studio or on location, I try to always have her bring a girlfriend and I have my female makeup artist/stylist/assistant with me on the shoot.

Create an environment where the model is comfortable with you, and she'll more than likely leave the "escort" at home (or bring a female friend....that's where I get the majority of my new business which is why I love having female escorts come along to shoots).

I admit, I am not comfortable when a model brings a male escort to the shoot and it then becomes a "spectator sport" for him, plus I do worry about my own safety from time to time.  But if the model wants to bring along that male escort, I NEVER object because that just causes suspicion and mistrust on the part of the model.

e-string wrote:
It's not that different. If you had been violated sexually, you probably wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

Really, I see the issue being that - say you had been sexually assaulted -

Do you stop going to work?  There are lots of times and places in the workplace where you might be alone with someone.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the dentist, or doctor?  Lots of alone time and personal contact.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the grocery store?  There have been minutes here and there where I have been alone with only one ether person in an aisle and as we've been told it only takes a few feet and a few seconds to be assaulted. Do you bring an escort to the grocery store?  Why not?

Do you stop dating? (sure you may stop any one of these activities for a while but ultimately life goes on)  Do you bring an escort on your dates?  Why not?

There are so many activities that anyone does during any one day that "could" result in harm that it would be quite simply impossible to live if you only did them when you could be assured of perfect safety.  No one lives like that.  No one.

The escort issue, whether admitted or not, is the preconceived notion that men (especially photographers) are evil sexual monster predators against whom you must protect yourself, when in fact the number of actual sexual predators in the photography profession is statistically comparable to any other profession.

And that notion is both irrational and deeply offensive.

jasontheartist wrote:
That happened in the next city over from me. So what makes you think you deserve to be trusted?

Really??? Where? when? what were the circumstances... I want names and dates and news articles...

jasontheartist wrote:
So what makes you think you deserve to be trusted? Its not personal but if bad people wore a shirt that said "Hey Im a bad person" this would be easier.

I deserve to be trusted because I have a long resume and a proven reputation with models from all over the US [working in a very intense and intimate genre no less].  If a model dosen't feel I'm trustworthy then they shouldn't work with me -- I have better things to do than trying to climb over somebody's fear issues.

jasontheartist wrote:
Im not sure how checking references can determine someones professional attitude, some of the most highly respected people act like fools here and there, call it a bad day or whatever but situations arise. Why not be safe and let her feel comfortable? If your own personal safety or your equipment safty is in mind than get one of your friends to watch you, one for each of you.  I see both sides of this problem with valid arguments, but in the first conversation it should be established whether or not the escort situation is a problem. Photog says no she says yes than dont work together, there are millions of each of you out there.

Is it insulting to most photographers to have an escort because you really are a decent guy? well how does she know you arent the 1 in a million that wants to keep her in your homemade dungeon and are using this platform as a way to find her? That happened in the next city over from me. So what makes you think you deserve to be trusted? Its not personal but if bad people wore a shirt that said "Hey Im a bad person" this would be easier.

No one lives their life based on the exceptions.  It is not possible.

Do you stop eating because, you know, that burger just might be the one in a million that's been poisoned by a disgruntled employee?

Rabbit86 wrote:

Well it wasnt touch as i say it was squeezing parts of my body , squizeeeing hands bewten parts of my body ...and comon when photographer graqb your breasts and hold them for longer then 5-10 seconds that required to move you topose it does seen like  setting up the pose from any angle ...

Wow lol.. squeezing your breasts is never required.  That's when you slap him and scream RAPE(to disorient, and disarm), get your stuff and leave.  Quickly.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

I deserve to be trusted because I have a long resume and a proven reputation with models from all over the US [working in a very intense and intimate genre no less].  If a model dosen't feel I'm trustworthy then they shouldn't work with me -- I have better things to do than trying to climb over somebody's fear issues.

I trust you Melvin

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

You just proved my point.  In spite of what happened in your crash.. you continued to drive.  Why?  Because despite your irrational paranoia you knew that it was a single isolated incident and it didn't mean that you were going to be hit every time you got into a car.

Also.. why are you playing the "sexually assaulted" card?  She didn't even say where he touched her, and suddenly you're escalating the incident to sexual assault as if she was raped?  Please.

I did not prove your point, sir. I became overly jumpy and cautious for quite some time because of what happened to me. Just like the OP.

Where did I say raped? Who's escalating it now? I said sexually violated. That phrase includes many things that are not rape. She made it pretty clear that he touched her in inappropriate ways. And unless you have had that happen to you when you were vulnerable and did not want it, I suggest that you not act like you know it all. You don't.