SKPhoto wrote:

Really, I see the issue being that - say you had been sexually assaulted -

Do you stop going to work?  There are lots of times and places in the workplace where you might be alone with someone.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the dentist, or doctor?  Lots of alone time and personal contact.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the grocery store?  There have been minutes here and there where I have been alone with only one ether person in an aisle and as we've been told it only takes a few feet and a few seconds to be assaulted. Do you bring an escort to the grocery store?  Why not?

Do you stop dating? (sure you may stop any one of these activities for a while but ultimately life goes on)  Do you bring an escort on your dates?  Why not?

There are so many activities that anyone does during any one day that "could" result in harm that it would be quite simply impossible to live if you only did them when you could be assured of perfect safety.  No one lives like that.  No one.

The escort issue, whether admitted or not, is the preconceived notion that men (especially photographers) are evil sexual monster predators against whom you must protect yourself, when in fact the number of actual sexual predators in the photography profession is statistically comparable to any other profession.

And that notion is both irrational and deeply offensive.

Exactly.  Well said!

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Wow lol.. squeezing your breasts is never required.  That's when you slap him and scream RAPE(to disorient, and disarm), get your stuff and leave.  Quickly.

I agree, but without the "lol."

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

I trust you Melvin

Lol...I gotta get to Philly.

jasontheartist wrote:
Im not sure how checking references can determine someones professional attitude, some of the most highly respected people act like fools here and there, call it a bad day or whatever but situations arise. Why not be safe and let her feel comfortable? If your own personal safety or your equipment safty is in mind than get one of your friends to watch you, one for each of you.  I see both sides of this problem with valid arguments, but in the first conversation it should be established whether or not the escort situation is a problem. Photog says no she says yes than dont work together, there are millions of each of you out there.

This is almost turning into a chipper thread...

To rabbit (the OP) .. in your case language barriers are a problem - as you freely admit to.  Having someone around especially when you are first meeting and talking through the shoot with the photographer is probably a good idea, just so that both of you are on the same page.  What the photog did or tried to do - none of us are agreeing with his actions.  Period.  Some of us have smaller studios, and having someone sit somewhere to witness is more difficult (and also perhaps dangerous as well - if something gets knocked over), or it throws off the photographer.  If you do decide to work with a photographer that is resistant against your friend being around - perhaps set up a meeting with all three of you - is the compromise.  For the most part, we photographers do not like someone that we don't know at the shoot for a variety of reasons as explained.  Then, if no compromise can be reached - each goes their seperate way.

To the quote above,

What is the percentage of breakin's versus what you are suggesting?  It's not only do we have to trust the model and the related escort during the shoot, but also for anytime after the fact as well.  If you don't know the escort, you are effectively putting a nice neon sign on the front window of your studio.  Where the model leaves after the shoot, the "risk" for the model decreases down to zero, however for the photographer it does not.  Think about it.

SKPhoto wrote:

Really, I see the issue being that - say you had been sexually assaulted -

Do you stop going to work?  There are lots of times and places in the workplace where you might be alone with someone.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the dentist, or doctor?  Lots of alone time and personal contact.  Do you bring an escort?  Why not?

Do you stop going to the grocery store?  There have been minutes here and there where I have been alone with only one ether person in an aisle and as we've been told it only takes a few feet and a few seconds to be assaulted. Do you bring an escort to the grocery store?  Why not?

Do you stop dating? (sure you may stop any one of these activities for a while but ultimately life goes on)  Do you bring an escort on your dates?  Why not?

There are so many activities that anyone does during any one day that "could" result in harm that it would be quite simply impossible to live if you only did them when you could be assured of perfect safety.  No one lives like that.  No one.

The escort issue, whether admitted or not, is the preconceived notion that men (especially photographers) are evil sexual monster predators against whom you must protect yourself, when in fact the number of actual sexual predators in the photography profession is statistically comparable to any other profession.

And that notion is both irrational and deeply offensive.

What does work, the dentist, grocery shopping, etc. have anything to do with it when it was a photographer who did the sexual assaulting? Nothing. It's not where her fear was created, so she feels no need to bring an escort there.

And irrational? Hardly! I have had TWO inappropriate situations with male photographers. One was only verbal, but one was physical. And the physical one happened to be pretty "big-time" and good at his genre of photography.

I don't bring an escort, but with what has been attempted on my body, I certainly think girls have a right to do so, especially if they've been touched by a photographer in the past and are worried because of that. With what actually happens to us, what kind of person would deny her that? One who tries to rationalize away the fact that it's a real problem, I suppose. Stop being so offended by it, and just be an upstanding person - the kind who isn't part of the problem.

e-string wrote:

I was hit by a drunk driver.
For many months afterwards, I jumped every single time I looked in my rear view mirror and thought someone wasn't braking fast enough behind me and might hit me.

It's not that different. If you had been violated sexually, you probably wouldn't be saying what you're saying.

people react 2 ways to such incidents, and/or near death experiences:

#1 they either TRY VERY HARD NOT to ever put themselves in the same circumstances again

or

#2 they TRY VERY HARD to put themselves in the same circumstances to PROVE to themselves that they can now control those circumstances

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Wow lol.. squeezing your breasts is never required.  That's when you slap him and scream RAPE(to disorient, and disarm), get your stuff and leave.  Quickly.

And now maybe you see why she might be a little wary.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

A 6'3" 200lb aggressive russian is a "reasonable escort"?  You seem to be big on seeing things from the other persons' side, so...  tell me why I should let *two* people I don't know(who now have me grossly outmatched btw) into my space with all of my expensive equipment. 

Sorry, but the playing field is *never* fair.. at least you have the option of checking me out first.  Who am I going to call to get references for the "no questions asked" 200lb gorilla with a language barrier and a "protective" personality?

Hehe comon stop callin some one you dont know gorrila he speak english better then me , and better then some americans that actualy one more reason he coming with me translator.

e-string wrote:

I did not prove your point, sir. I became overly jumpy and cautious for quite some time because of what happened to me. Just like the OP.

Where did I say raped? Who's escalating it now? I said sexually violated. That phrase includes many things that are not rape. She made it pretty clear that he touched her in inappropriate ways. And unless you have had that happen to you when you were vulnerable and did not want it, I suggest that you not act like you know it all. You don't.

1.) You had a bad experience.
2.) You continued to drive as usual.

Unless you're going to try to tell us that you believe that you're going to get into a car crash every time you get into you car... then yes.. you've proved my point.

Thanks.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

I agree, but without the "lol."

Sorry heh, but.. the "for more than the 5-10 seconds required" part made me chuckle...

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Wow lol.. squeezing your breasts is never required.  That's when you slap him and scream RAPE(to disorient, and disarm), get your stuff and leave.  Quickly.

Easy to say to some wo speak english
Iwasnt ...my english improoved with this 3 months a lot, also thank you to my friend.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

1.) You had a bad experience.
2.) You continued to drive as usual.

Unless you're going to try to tell us that you believe that you're going to get into a car crash every time you get into you car... then yes.. you've proved my point.

Thanks.

If you're too simple-minded to understand the rest of what I said, I guess you can keep thinking that.

It's about the fact that it makes people overly cautious. It's not a "one or the other" thing. I kept driving, but I was scared - yes, I was scared that I was going to get hit again. She kept modeling, but she's wary. She has a right to be wary after what he did to her.

e-string wrote:

What does work, the dentist, grocery shopping, etc. have anything to do with it when it was a photographer who did the sexual assaulting? Nothing. It's not where her fear was created, so she feels no need to bring an escort there.

And irrational? Hardly! I have had TWO inappropriate situations with male photographers. One was only verbal, but one was physical. And the physical one happened to be pretty "big-time" and good at his genre of photography.

I don't bring an escort, but with what has been attempted on my body, I certainly think girls have a right to do so, especially if they've been touched by a photographer in the past and are worried because of that. With what actually happens to us, what kind of person would deny her that? One who tries to rationalize away the fact that it's a real problem, I suppose. Stop being so offended by it, and just be an upstanding person - the kind who isn't part of the problem.

Ok.. now you're just not trying.

As far as your two incidents go.. how many other shoots have you had that were positive?  You make it seem like those two photographers are representative of the entire photographic community.. you don't see how offensive that is?

e-string wrote:

If you're too simple-minded to understand the rest of what I said, I guess you can keep thinking that.

It's about the fact that it makes people overly cautious. It's not a "one or the other" thing. I kept driving, but I was scared - yes, I was scared that I was going to get hit again. She kept modeling, but she's wary. She has a right to be wary after what he did to her.

I agree.  This isn't "she continued to drive as usual".  Did you miss the part where she mentioned being freaked out everytime she looked in her rearview mirror and a car was too close?  You must have.  The proper correlation for Demarcus' example would be if you had a bad experience with a photographer you stop modelling.  Not you start bringing an escort.  Bringing an escort is using a seat belt, not ceasing getting in the car altogether.  Mind you, I don't bring my bf with me, but then again I've never had a bad experience.  But I do worry about driving in the rain from time to time.
Anyway, the solution to all this is, work with photographers that allow escorts if you want to bring one.

Rabbit86 wrote:

Easy to say to some wo speak english
Iwasnt ...my english improoved with this 3 months a lot, also thank you to my friend.

Actually if you hadn't spoken any english prior to 3 months, you're communicating better than some that purportedly spoke it all their life....

If the photog has an issue with your friend, just set up a meeting with all parties involved.  This is a different case than the rest of them because of language difficulties.  But most shoots will have others present as well, such as an MUA.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:
Ok.. now you're just not trying.

As far as your two incidents go.. how many other shoots have you had that were positive?  You make it seem like those two photographers are representative of the entire photographic community.. you don't see how offensive that is?

Why do you assume that I think everyone else is going to do it to me? Are you really that egocentric? It's not about you at all. It's not about my upcoming shoots. I never said I suspect each photographer of it; I have no idea where you're getting this idea that I'm calling all photographers predators. You just don't know when it could happen again.. some are more suspect than others. I love most of my photographers. I'm close friends with quite a few of them.

Two is two too many. The fact that you want to write it off like it's nothing says a lot about you. Let the girl be wary. What's so wrong with being careful? Nothing. If you're so respectable, why are you so offended? I already stated that I don't bring an escort. So obviously I'm not THAT uptight about it.

e-string wrote:

If you're too simple-minded to understand the rest of what I said, I guess you can keep thinking that.

It's about the fact that it makes people overly cautious. It's not a "one or the other" thing. I kept driving, but I was scared - yes, I was scared that I was going to get hit again. She kept modeling, but she's wary. She has a right to be wary after what he did to her.

Here is what I understand.  Feelings, emotions, and paranoia are all momentary and irrational.  If that is your only argument for supporting her.. then you don't have one.

I dealt with the facts of the matter.

1.) Incident.
2.) Continuance in spite of incident.
3.) Nothing else.

That is an inductive proof. 
What does it prove?  My point. 
Who provided it?  You.

Why can't you just accept my thanks?

Demarcus Freeman wrote:
Ok.. now you're just not trying.

As far as your two incidents go.. how many other shoots have you had that were positive?  You make it seem like those two photographers are representative of the entire photographic community.. you don't see how offensive that is?

I say from very beggining that after this accident i dont feel comfy alone with
photogrpaher specialy frist time shoot, and i also say that 99% of photographers are awesome people very easy going guys, profeessionals on every level.

If you like work with me and it beacose of something special in my work, something special in my poses, in my face, in my smile on face, i my personality on photos you see, just keep in mind all this was taken by professionals ( some by not pro's)when my friend presnt at shoot, if you like results and wish to have same on your photos respect my wish or dont ask me to work with you ...

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Here is what I understand.  Feelings, emotions, and paranoia are all momentary and irrational.  If that is your only argument for supporting her.. then you don't have one.

I dealt with the facts of the matter.

1.) Incident.
2.) Continuance in spite of incident.
3.) Nothing else.

That is an inductive proof. 
What does it prove?  My point. 
Who provided it?  You.

Why can't you just accept my thanks?

You think feelings resulting from a sexual violation are "momentary and irrational"? That's just delusional of you. And unless YOU start making rational statements, nothing you say holds any water at this point. Your little proof there is just laughable and full of holes.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

I agree.  This isn't "she continued to drive as usual".  Did you miss the part where she mentioned being freaked out everytime she looked in her rearview mirror and a car was too close?  You must have.  The proper correlation for Demarcus' example would be if you had a bad experience with a photographer you stop modelling.  Not you start bringing an escort.  Bringing an escort is using a seat belt, not ceasing getting in the car altogether.  Mind you, I don't bring my bf with me, but then again I've never had a bad experience.  But I do worry about driving in the rain from time to time.
Anyway, the solution to all this is, work with photographers that allow escorts if you want to bring one.

Sorry, but.. bringing an escort is not wearing a seat belt because she was already doing that before the crash, and.. seatbelts are reasonable.  Bringing an escort is more like packing the inside of your car with styrafoam chips or bubble wrap.

I didn't bother to mention the paranoia because.. it's IRRATIONAL and TEMPORARY.  It doesn't affect the facts of the matter.

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Sorry, but.. bringing an escort is not wearing a seat belt because she was already doing that before the crash, and.. seatbelts are reasonable.  Bringing an escort is more like packing the inside of your car with styrafoam chips or bubble wrap.

I didn't bother to mention the paranoia because.. it's IRRATIONAL and TEMPORARY.  It doesn't affect the facts of the matter.

How is it irrational when this is something that happens so often? Why are you so against taking a safety precaution? Are you one of the bad guys?

And I know you're going to try to say that because I said "often", I mean most photographers. Well that's not what I mean. Two for me is two too many. One for Rabbit is one too many. This happens to many models. Get it?

Avicdar wrote:
I have nothing to contribute to the primary point of this thread, escort or no escort, but...

Its interesting that Dmitry holds the copyright on several of the OP's images.  To me that suggests that he is a photographer.

So, for a slightly different angle on this...

Photographers - would you want another photographer to be there watching you work?

Oh hell.  Dmitry is probably her SLUGGO!

Avicdar wrote:
Photographers - would you want another photographer to be there watching you work?

That's no problem for me...My technique is so ridiculous that they couldn't figure it out even if they wanted to imitate it [which they most likely wouldn't].

Demarcus Freeman wrote:

Sorry, but.. bringing an escort is not wearing a seat belt because she was already doing that before the crash, and.. seatbelts are reasonable.  Bringing an escort is more like packing the inside of your car with styrafoam chips or bubble wrap.

I didn't bother to mention the paranoia because.. it's IRRATIONAL and TEMPORARY.  It doesn't affect the facts of the matter.

Oh goodness.  I'm going to have to sound sexist to continue.  Please excuse me Susan B. Anthony.  Females are irrational and emotional.  They are also the bulk of the models on this site.  Preaching logic and facts and blah blah blah doesn't help.  It doesn't make the emotions go away.  Sorry.  If you do not believe me, then please compare the responses of the men and the women regarding this issue.  No this is not a hard and fast rule, but it's a good 70/30 split without me actually doing the math. 
Now, paranoia does affect the facts of the matter.  She had a bad experience, it made her paranoid about working with photographers, she brings an escort.  Hey!  That just affected things!  Wow.

Vance wrote:
For many that means you will never step foot in my studio or work with me..OH WELL..No loss..there are plenty of models and photgraphers in the sea..PERIOD

All of this justifying and banter is BS...Circular argument..blah blah bloah.CHIPPER!

Very good point.  It seems that models and even some photographers are upset when someone else won't work with them under their preferred circumstances.  I've never had this problem because I only work with people who are cool with what I do and how I do it.  If someone isn't, then that's cool too -- we simply agree to disagree and move on.

I am a little taken aback by how fearful some models are.  If it's so terrifying, why keep doing it?  I don't ride roller coasters for a reason.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Very good point.  It seems that models and even some photographers are upset when someone else won't work with them under their preferred circumstances.  I've never had this problem because I only work with people who are cool with what I do and how I do it.  If someone isn't, then that's cool too -- we simply agree to disagree and move on.

I am a little taken aback by how fearful some models are.  If it's so terrifying, why keep doing it?  I don't ride roller coasters for a reason.

LOL, I don't ride them motherfuckers either. 
I want to make this point.  I don't require escorts.  I know it seems like I do, but I don't.  I just think that models shouldn't be blasted if they want to bring one.  If you, as a photographer don't allow them, then tell her sorry.  And move on.  Trying to convice us that you are trustworthy and your thousands of photos were taken without an escort, etc. doesn't help.

e-string wrote:

You think feelings resulting from a sexual violation are "momentary and irrational"? That's just delusional of you. And unless YOU start making rational statements, nothing you say holds any water at this point. Your little proof there is just laughable and full of holes.

We were talking about your feelings about your car crash, but.. in general, yes.  Feelings are temporary and irrational.  They're interpretations of our perspectives, and perspectives differ drastically.  Not only that, but as we age, our perspectives involve.  How can you base arguments on something that's so fluid?  Facts don't change.

You may call my proof laughable, but.. you have yet to talk about the facts of the matter.  You got into a car crash.  You kept driving in the same manner you always have.  You just keep talking in "but"'s.  I know I kept driving, but...  but.. but...

No more "but"'s.  You kept driving in the same manner that you always had.. that *does* prove my point even though you seem to be unable to admit it.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Very good point.  It seems that models and even some photographers are upset when someone else won't work with them under their preferred circumstances.  I've never had this problem because I only work with people who are cool with what I do and how I do it.  If someone isn't, then that's cool too -- we simply agree to disagree and move on.

I am a little taken aback by how fearful some models are.  If it's so terrifying, why keep doing it?  I don't ride roller coasters for a reason.

LOL.I hate ROLLER Coasters..BUT I get on one everytime I go to a park because I am forcing myself to face that fear...

I havent had a positive roller coaster ride yet...But..I keep trying..call me crazy..LOL

James Jackson wrote:
Really??? Where? when? what were the circumstances... I want names and dates and news articles...

Come on do you not have anything better to do other than to down others? Why do you need a place or a time or the circumstances? This happened!!!! And for this reason I bring a male ecort with me at all times!! I have not had any problems with this, in fact I have even had call backs for more work with my ecort to even pose with me. I do feel that if any model wants to bring a ecort it is her choice to feel safe! Not the photographers!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I think most photographers are cool.  I think most are people of their word and
not out for a cheap thrill and would never hurt anyone but I also think its
wise to take someone when you shoot at least the first time.  The lawyer or
doctor argument is a good one but these people tend to  work
through hospitals and offices.  You aren't usually going to meet your lawyer
at the shady rest hotel (depends) However if you are really afraid and feel a escort
is always needed then perhaps you need to stop modeling.  Checking who you
are going to work with is smart, maybe speaking to past models is a good ideal.
Look I think most of us would agree that meeting through a website could be
dicey.  Taking a friend may lessen that fear.  Its not truly about something happening or not, a friend just helps to sometimes calm a model.  Our negative
past experiences often color our present and future interactions and reactions.
learn from your past but don't be trapped by it.

I love you Tony.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:

LOL, I don't ride them motherfuckers either. 
I want to make this point.  I don't require escorts.  I know it seems like I do, but I don't.  I just think that models shouldn't be blasted if they want to bring one.  If you, as a photographer don't allow them, then tell her sorry.  And move on.  Trying to convice us that you are trustworthy and your thousands of photos were taken without an escort, etc. doesn't help.

very well said Melissa.