jeffgreen wrote:
You find it completely illogical because that is how you want to see it.  When you read a book from the Bible you do not read it out of honesty but to find something wrong with it.  Job suffered so God is a horrible sadistic God.  Did you make it through the end of the book where God rewarded Job for his love for him?  "Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God."  He wasn't the Son of God?  Discounts the entire prophesies found in the Old Testament that contradict you.  God doesn't hate homosexuals but he will not have them into His kingdom.  He, being pure and holy, can not associate with that which is not.  As for the 7 days debate, that could go on for years.

You read the Bible to find flaws.  How often do you read history books for the sole purpose of finding loopholes?  I would guess never.  People tend to discount any religion that doesn't fit with how they want to live claiming that it is silly, doesn't make sense, isn't logical...etc.  You will believe what you want to no matter how much sense the Bible makes.

Back to the O.P.'s question

You really need to stop making assumptions and accusations about why I feel the way I do. I'm fully entitled to my beliefs, as you are to yours. I believe in science, and science goes against much of what the Bible says. I find it completely illogical because I find it completely illogical. The world was created in 7 days...God killed off his most loyal followers entire family to prove himself to the devil...Noah gathered 2 (or 7 depending on the type of animal) of every animal onto a boat...a lot of it doesn't make sense to me. I'll believe the Bible when it actually does make sense to me. Til then, please back the hell off me and chill out. I wasn't even talking to you, and I'm fully entitled to my beliefs just as you are to yours. The Bible was written by man claiming to be inspired by God. I'm sorry...but I don't trust man that much. That's my choice. If God's up there, he gave me this brain. I doubt he didn't want me to use it. I have no desire to debate with you any further because you will not convince me I'm wrong, nor do I plan to try to convince you you're wrong. I respect your beliefs whether I agree with them or not. You should pay me the same respect.

jeffgreen wrote:

You find it completely illogical because that is how you want to see it.  When you read a book from the Bible you do not read it out of honesty but to find something wrong with it.  Job suffered so God is a horrible sadistic God.  Did you make it through the end of the book where God rewarded Job for his love for him?  "Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God."  He wasn't the Son of God?  Discounts the entire prophesies found in the Old Testament that contradict you.  God doesn't hate homosexuals but he will not have them into His kingdom.  He, being pure and holy, can not associate with that which is not.  As for the 7 days debate, that could go on for years.

You read the Bible to find flaws.  How often do you read history books for the sole purpose of finding loopholes?  I would guess never.  People tend to discount any religion that doesn't fit with how they want to live claiming that it is silly, doesn't make sense, isn't logical...etc.  You will believe what you want to no matter how much sense the Bible makes.

Back to the O.P.'s question

So... this god caused all manner of suffering for this dude named Job. What did he do to deserve that torment? And again, I ask this: If this god is omniscient and omnipotent then he knew beforehand what Job would do -- he already knew Job loved him. But he tormented Job anyway. This makes this god a total sadistic bastard. Either that, or he really isn't omniscient and omnipotent, in which case he's still a bastard for tormenting an innocent person like that. Evil is as evil does.

  You should read the bible to find flaws in it; you should be aware of them. And when reading history you should be doing the same thing. This also applies to watching the news, reading the newspaper, listening to what your friends tell you, or whatever. In other words, don't take everything at face value.

elisabeth eagle wrote:
well- go back and read my first post- had everything to do with the OPs question.
and u have ur opinions and i have my opinions- i don't even have to tell you what my opinions of sex or nudity are because ur not listening. I know no one mentioned naked children, but someone mentioned that we should all run around naked and all includes children-
and yes, my past does have to do a lot with how i view sex- not nudity.

There's nothing wrong with nudity, young or old.  It's your perception that makes it beautiful or dirty...

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
As a matter of fact none of what you written above has anything to do with the OP or any of the people in this discussion.

::ring ring::

Hello, Pot?  This is Kettle!

Kaitlin Lara wrote:

Actually...I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this one. I don't think you could find anyone who honestly didn't like nudity and sex. You may be able to find some people who do a great job repressing their natural urges, or a few people whose brains aren't wired quite right, but it is human nature to like nudity and sex.

(This is my belief according to what I've read)..Right. It is human nature to desire sex, but God also told us in the bible tht sex was for enjoyment btwn married people, not sex with random partners which is fornication: a sin. Because you create Un-holy soul ties to a person that's not your lawful wife...The bible says you are joined witht he person you have sex with...similarly, when to are married two become one, which God honors because it's in his laws. The reason fornication is a sin is because the devil, the father of sin caused mankind to be cursed by separating them from God and convincing them to sin which leads to death. Once we sinned in the garden, we became the devils' focus, allowed him to come against us. All sin causes the same kinds of results, sickness, disease, death, strife, violence. That's why God doesn''t warns us not to do it, not because he's taken you away from fun. He's a loving God who wants to save humanity from a sin cursed world (the curses are all the problems that happen btw people because of sin, some of which I mentioned already) that's why he sent Jesus Christ to save it.
Consider this, cuz I saw some of the other posts concerning why God lets the devil tempt people....if God didn't make evil, how would you know what good really is? That's why there's Good and Evil. The evil drives you to seek God to be deliverd from it. He knows that humanity needs to be driven to him because he created everything. and knows the heart of man. If you ever get to read the bible again (past Job) in the book of Revelations you find out that God destroys evil once and for all. It is a prophetic book of what will happen in the near future. THESE ARE MY BELIEFS, according to what I've read in the bible...let me say that once more time. It's youur choice if you want to check into them. If you have questions about God, you should read his word first, and then hold him accountable to it. See if his word lines up with what you see in society, then you'll know if his word is true or not.

jeffgreen wrote:

You find it completely illogical because that is how you want to see it.  When you read a book from the Bible you do not read it out of honesty but to find something wrong with it.  Job suffered so God is a horrible sadistic God.  Did you make it through the end of the book where God rewarded Job for his love for him?  "Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God."  He wasn't the Son of God?  Discounts the entire prophesies found in the Old Testament that contradict you.  God doesn't hate homosexuals but he will not have them into His kingdom.  He, being pure and holy, can not associate with that which is not.  As for the 7 days debate, that could go on for years.

You read the Bible to find flaws.  How often do you read history books for the sole purpose of finding loopholes?  I would guess never.  People tend to discount any religion that doesn't fit with how they want to live claiming that it is silly, doesn't make sense, isn't logical...etc.  You will believe what you want to no matter how much sense the Bible makes.

Back to the O.P.'s question

There are many of us that see the flaws in the bible simply because we don't apply the filter of religious value to the manuscript.  The bible is just another book to us.  I read all texts with the same judgemental values.  The bible contains some of the greatest porn passages ever written (I guess first reading it cover to cover when going through puberty can give it a wierd perspective).  As I have stated before, the OP can use the bible to justify his shooting if that is what he wishes to do.

jeffgreen wrote:

::ring ring::

Hello, Pot?  This is Kettle!

Hey, I already told the OP he should go into fetish...Now I'm trying to solve somebody else's sexual hangup.

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:

(This is my belief according to what I've read)..Right. It is human nature to desire sex, but God also told us in the bible tht sex was for enjoyment btwn married people, not sex with random partners which is fornication: a sin. Because you create Un-holy soul ties to a person that's not your lawful wife...The bible says you are joined witht he person you have sex with...similarly, when to are married two become one, which God honors because it's in his laws. The reason fornication is a sin is because the devil, the father of sin caused mankind to be cursed by separating them from God and convincing them to sin which leads to death. Once we sinned in the garden, we became the devils' focus, allowed him to come against us. All sin causes the same kinds of results, sickness, disease, death, strife, violence. That's why God doesn''t warns us not to do it, not because he's taken you away from fun. He's a loving God who wants to save humanity from a sin cursed world (the curses are all the problems that happen btw people because of sin, some of which I mentioned already) that's why he sent Jesus Christ to save it.
Consider this, cuz I saw some of the other posts concerning why God lets the devil tempt people....if God didn't make evil, how would you know what good really is? That's why there's Good and Evil. The evil drives you to seek God to be deliverd from it. He knows that humanity needs to be driven to him because he created everything. and knows the heart of man. If you ever get to read the bible again (past Job) in the book of Revelations you find out that God destroys evil once and for all. It is a prophetic book of what will happen in the near future. THESE ARE MY BELIEFS, according to what I've read in the bible...let me say that once more time. It's youur choice if you want to check into them. If you have questions about God, you should read his word first, and then hold him accountable to it. See if his word lines up with what you see in society, then you'll know if his word is true or not.

I'm not arguing the morality of sex. I'm merely stating that liking sex and nudity is natural, and I find it absurd to say that not everyone likes sex. I hate to be rude, but I really don't have the time to read all your beliefs about why sex is wrong in this situation or this situation, and why God feels that way, because you can't offer me any proof of that except scripture, which I don't personally believe to be the word of God. Sorry.

Pat Thielen wrote:
So... this god caused all manner of suffering for this dude named Job. What did he do to deserve that torment? And again, I ask this: If this god is omniscient and omnipotent then he knew beforehand what Job would do -- he already knew Job loved him. But he tormented Job anyway. This makes this god a total sadistic bastard. Either that, or he really isn't omniscient and omnipotent, in which case he's still a bastard for tormenting an innocent person like that. Evil is as evil does.

  You should read the bible to find flaws in it; you should be aware of them. And when reading history you should be doing the same thing. This also applies to watching the news, reading the newspaper, listening to what your friends tell you, or whatever. In other words, don't take everything at face value.

LOL, Pat.  You are obviously unfamiliar with the Bible and especially the book of Job.  It's sad that you didn't even make it past the first chapter of Job!!  God knew what Job would do.  He told Satan what Job would do.  BTW, it was SATAN who tormented Job.  Just as it is Satan who is the result of persecution of the saints today.  Job was tormented because of his faith in God. So you are right, Evil is as evil does.  God rewarded Job for his steadfast faith... read the end of the book after you get done with Harry Potter!

BTW I have read the Bible and have yet to find all these flaws that the agnostics/ athiests make up!  I see lists of things but when put in context everything just falls apart.  Sorry for using logic. 

elisabeth eagle wrote:
and yes, my past does have to do a lot with how i view sex- not nudity.

Like I said...therapy is in order.  Unless you enjoy "hating sex".

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:

(This is my belief according to what I've read)..Right. It is human nature to desire sex, but God also told us in the bible tht sex was for enjoyment btwn married people, not sex with random partners which is fornication: a sin. Because you create Un-holy soul ties to a person that's not your lawful wife...The bible says you are joined witht he person you have sex with...similarly, when to are married two become one, which God honors because it's in his laws. The reason fornication is a sin is because the devil, the father of sin caused mankind to be cursed by separating them from God and convincing them to sin which leads to death. Once we sinned in the garden, we became the devils' focus, allowed him to come against us. All sin causes the same kinds of results, sickness, disease, death, strife, violence. That's why God doesn''t warns us not to do it, not because he's taken you away from fun. He's a loving God who wants to save humanity from a sin cursed world (the curses are all the problems that happen btw people because of sin, some of which I mentioned already) that's why he sent Jesus Christ to save it.
Consider this, cuz I saw some of the other posts concerning why God lets the devil tempt people....if God didn't make evil, how would you know what good really is? That's why there's Good and Evil. The evil drives you to seek God to be deliverd from it. He knows that humanity needs to be driven to him because he created everything. and knows the heart of man. If you ever get to read the bible again (past Job) in the book of Revelations you find out that God destroys evil once and for all. It is a prophetic book of what will happen in the near future. THESE ARE MY BELIEFS, according to what I've read in the bible...let me say that once more time. It's youur choice if you want to check into them. If you have questions about God, you should read his word first, and then hold him accountable to it. See if his word lines up with what you see in society, then you'll know if his word is true or not.

Dude, you should so be a fetish photographer!  With all that "good v. evil" conflict going on inside, you could be the next Charles Gatewood.

jeffgreen wrote:

LOL, Pat.  You are obviously unfamiliar with the Bible and especially the book of Job.  It's sad that you didn't even make it past the first chapter of Job!!  God knew what Job would do.  He told Satan what Job would do.  BTW, it was SATAN who tormented Job.  Just as it is Satan who is the result of persecution of the saints today.  Job was tormented because of his faith in God. So you are right, Evil is as evil does.  God rewarded Job for his steadfast faith... read the end of the book after you get done with Harry Potter!

BTW I have read the Bible and have yet to find all these flaws that the agnostics/ athiests make up!  I see lists of things but when put in context everything just falls apart.  Sorry for using logic. 

gee kinda like we are all being tormented for even believeing in God?

elisabeth eagle wrote:
sorry tried thearpy- didn't work. tried just about everything- didn't work- unless u've been there- you can never truly know what it feels like.

Well good luck to your husband, then.

elisabeth eagle wrote:
gee kinda like we are all being tormented for even believeing in God?

I never pass up a chance to torment the faithful.

elisabeth eagle wrote:
gee kinda like we are all being tormented for even believeing in God?

In some places, YES! but in North America, Europe, and the likes tormented might be harsh.  Maybe persecuted.  Middle East, China, yeah... Tormented!

You really need to stop making assumptions and accusations about why I feel the way I do. I'm fully entitled to my beliefs, as you are to yours. I believe in science, and science goes against much of what the Bible says.



Kaitlin, science actually is proving the existence of God. Haven't you heard of the findings of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" Original bible passages on original fragments that they were written on in the ancient hebrew and Greek languages. Parts of the book of Isaiah were found by archaeologists in the 1940's. So, it seems to me that God may have created science and inspired man to know more about the world, his world (in my opinion) Also, there;s a program called Science of the Bible on National Geographic Channel (Programs not even produced by christians) where archaeologists find places and lost artifacts from Bible times. You should check it out, it's on Mondays 10pm, it repeats again 2am (eastern time) Now, it seems the world is embracing the idea that science proves God's existence.

jeffgreen wrote:

LOL, Pat.  You are obviously unfamiliar with the Bible and especially the book of Job.  It's sad that you didn't even make it past the first chapter of Job!!  God knew what Job would do.  He told Satan what Job would do.  BTW, it was SATAN who tormented Job.  Just as it is Satan who is the result of persecution of the saints today.  Job was tormented because of his faith in God. So you are right, Evil is as evil does.  God rewarded Job for his steadfast faith... read the end of the book after you get done with Harry Potter!

BTW I have read the Bible and have yet to find all these flaws that the agnostics/ athiests make up!  I see lists of things but when put in context everything just falls apart.  Sorry for using logic. 

So you're ok with god just hanging by and letting satan do all this?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke-

To do nothing to stop an evil act, when you have the power to do so, is in itself an evil act. God doesn't get off the hook that easily.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Well good luck to your husband, then.

Wow.  Such animalistic behavior... maybe God doesn't exist.  That would explain your lack of decency!  After all, we are all just animals without the ability to know right and wrong.  We can't know right from wrong because there is no right and wrong without someone to instill in us what is right and wrong.

Are you still trying to call the kettle?

elisabeth eagle wrote:
my husbands loves me. if u really love someone sex shouldn't be the only thing thats keeping u there. i'd still stay faithful to him if he couldn't get it up anymore....

If that's the story you're going with...good luck.  The whole "love without sex" thing dosen't seem to be working out for the Catholic Church or Evangelical Christians, but I'm sure you know something they don't.

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:
Back to the O.P.'s question

You really need to stop making assumptions and accusations about why I feel the way I do. I'm fully entitled to my beliefs, as you are to yours. I believe in science, and science goes against much of what the Bible says.



Kaitlin, science actually is proving the existence of God. Haven't you heard of the findings of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" Original bible passages on original fragments that they were written on in the ancient hebrew and Greek languages. Parts of the book of Isaiah were found by archaeologists in the 1940's. So, it seems to me that God may have created science and inspired man to know more about the world, his world (in my opinion) Also, there;s a program called Science of the Bible on National Geographic Channel (Programs not even produced by christians) where archaeologists find places and lost artifacts from Bible times. You should check it out, it's on Mondays 10pm, it repeats again 2am (eastern time) Now, it seems the world is embracing the idea that science proves God's existence.

Finding more religious texts proves god how...?

jeffgreen wrote:
maybe God doesn't exist.

I knew you'd figure it out eventually.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

If that's the story you're going with...good luck.  The whole "love without sex" thing dosen't seem to be working out for the Catholic Church or Evangelical Christians, but I'm sure you know something they don't.

for the last time i don't believe in either of those religions- and im having sex cuz im trying to conceive again- i just said i hated it but i feel that im entitled to have sex with him if he wants it. doesnt mean i like it nor that i want to

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

Dude, you should so be a fetish photographer!  With all that "good v. evil" conflict going on inside, you could be the next Charles Gatewood.

I never heard of him, but I wouldn't do fetish photgraphy, just my choice.

elisabeth eagle wrote:
and i never pass up a chance to torment the unbelievers

Elisabeth, for someone who doesn't like sex, you have some rather, um... tormenting shots in your folio.

Pat Thielen wrote:

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:
Back to the O.P.'s question

You really need to stop making assumptions and accusations about why I feel the way I do. I'm fully entitled to my beliefs, as you are to yours. I believe in science, and science goes against much of what the Bible says.



Kaitlin, science actually is proving the existence of God. Haven't you heard of the findings of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" Original bible passages on original fragments that they were written on in the ancient hebrew and Greek languages. Parts of the book of Isaiah were found by archaeologists in the 1940's. So, it seems to me that God may have created science and inspired man to know more about the world, his world (in my opinion) Also, there;s a program called Science of the Bible on National Geographic Channel (Programs not even produced by christians) where archaeologists find places and lost artifacts from Bible times. You should check it out, it's on Mondays 10pm, it repeats again 2am (eastern time) Now, it seems the world is embracing the idea that science proves God's existence.

Finding more religious texts proves god how...?

It proves that the people, places, and religous artifacts that the bible talks about exists. The holy grail, the site where jesus was crucified, The science findings prove the existence of the bible, God's word.. Also, Romans 1:20  in the bible says, "The invisible things of him(God)from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made..." Meaning, by looking at nature: birds, trees, nature, the seas stars and placement of the solar system, gravity, even how I child is conceived, it all proves the power of God, an intelligent designer.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Dude, you should so be a fetish photographer!  With all that "good v. evil" conflict going on inside, you could be the next Charles Gatewood.

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:
I never heard of him, but I wouldn't do fetish photgraphy, just my choice.

Too bad -- you've got the complete skillset for fetish/bondage.

Pat Thielen wrote:
So you're ok with god just hanging by and letting satan do all this?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke-

To do nothing to stop an evil act, when you have the power to do so, is in itself an evil act. God doesn't get off the hook that easily.

You are trying to equate God with man and they two aren't equal.  For God to eliminate all pain and suffering would be for God to create robots.  God has given us a choice.  You chose not to believe in the one who created you... Good for you.  I choose to believe in the one who created me based on facts.  God created a perfect world full of peace and joy.  Man turned their back on God, not the other way around.

Of course all you want to do is keep God on a hook and try to prove how mean He is.

jeffgreen wrote:

Wow.  Such animalistic behavior... maybe God doesn't exist.  That would explain your lack of decency!  After all, we are all just animals without the ability to know right and wrong.  We can't know right from wrong because there is no right and wrong without someone to instill in us what is right and wrong.

Are you still trying to call the kettle?

No, we do know the difference between right and wrong and many of us don't need a bible to tell us the difference. In fact, the bible and other "holy" texts have been the cause of more bloodshed in the history of humankind than anything else. The world would be a much better place without the disease of religion. Believing in a god is one thing, believing in a religion and following blindly its dogma is quite another. We really do need to rise above this thing called religion.

  To the OP -- Do what you feel is right. There is nothing wrong with the nude human form, and there is nothing wrong with sex and erotica. If you approach your work through the eyes of an artist it will be all good.

Clarence aka  Big C wrote:
Kaitlin, science actually is proving the existence of God. Haven't you heard of the findings of the "Dead Sea Scrolls" Original bible passages on original fragments that they were written on in the ancient hebrew and Greek languages. Parts of the book of Isaiah were found by archaeologists in the 1940's. So, it seems to me that God may have created science and inspired man to know more about the world, his world (in my opinion) Also, there;s a program called Science of the Bible on National Geographic Channel (Programs not even produced by christians) where archaeologists find places and lost artifacts from Bible times. You should check it out, it's on Mondays 10pm, it repeats again 2am (eastern time) Now, it seems the world is embracing the idea that science proves God's existence.

Again...your opinion...and no...science isn't proving the existence of God. Science is proving that some aspects of the Bible have basis in fact, but that doesn't prove the existence of God, nor does it prove the Bible is entirely correct. Science still blatantly contradicts much of what is written in the Bible. Please stop trying to convince me to change my mind about God and the Bible with your own beliefs. Feel free to quote me facts, but other than that, I really just don't care to read about your beliefs anymore as I've already stated.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
If that's the story you're going with...good luck.  The whole "love without sex" thing dosen't seem to be working out for the Catholic Church or Evangelical Christians, but I'm sure you know something they don't.

elisabeth eagle wrote:
for the last time i don't believe in either of those religions- and im having sex cuz im trying to conceive again- i just said i hated it but i feel that im entitled to have sex with him if he wants it. doesnt mean i like it nor that i want to

Like I said...if that's the story you're going with, good luck with it.  If I knew you better, I'd send you a copy of The Handmaid's Tale, but whatever.

jeffgreen wrote:

Wow.  Such animalistic behavior... maybe God doesn't exist.  That would explain your lack of decency!  After all, we are all just animals without the ability to know right and wrong.  We can't know right from wrong because there is no right and wrong without someone to instill in us what is right and wrong.

Are you still trying to call the kettle?

You know...people in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones. I do recall you attacking me twice in this thread without provocation.