Le Beck Photography wrote:
The shedding of Blood and procurement of Money are all that matter.

This is my favourite passage. God of Peace and Love????

Again, you care nothing about context which shows your desire to be dishonest.  You have nothing to add.  Go away or I'll taunt you a second time.

Pat Thielen wrote:
Show me the evidence and proof. Specifically, what historical documents?

He has none.

Bridge, prepare for bombardment of 'burden of proof', 'appeal to emotion' and 'ad populum' fallacious rguments.

Nihilus wrote:
Bridge, prepare for bombardment of 'burden of proof', 'appeal to emotion' and 'ad populum' arguments.

I see.  *I* am the only one required to show proof in a debate.  Claims have been made from the other side but *I* am the one not showing proof?  Nihilus, are you that obviously blind?  Surely not.

I fart in your general direction

jeffgreen wrote:

Well, I'm still waiting for the evidence that I requested earlier.  Go fetch it and then we can talk some more.  Don't feel like providing your proof?  Bow out then as I do not have time for people to sling out silly "it's in the bible" statements without one shred of proof.  I have weighed my evidence and continue to weigh my evidence and find it outweighing anything that others provide as "proof" that Christ and God don't exist.

Wow -- I'm impressed. Way to try to turn this around. What proof did you ask for...? I think you told me to read the bible or some such silliness. If I've forgotten I apologize. I've been asking you for proof for this entire thread of your claims and of course you've ignored my requests. This god of yours is evil and it's stated very clearly throughout the bible through this god's acts and his allowing of evil to be committed. Did you in fact read it? Or did you read the edited version with all the nasty stuff removed? If you've read it, as you claim, you know this to be the case. There is nothing more for me to show you because its all in the bible.

  But when you say to me that they've found documents that prove god and Jesus exist then I'd like to know your sources. And I'd think you'd be very interested in presenting that proof to me as well as others. So, it is as I thought and you have no proof. Talk is cheap.

Pat Thielen wrote:
It sounds interesting because I dig archaeology (get it? Dig? Har har). I'm not convinced that this was the tomb of Jesus, and they better have some damn good evidence that it was.

His drivers license was in his pouch.

Nihilus wrote:

He has none.

Bridge, prepare for bombardment of 'burden of proof', 'appeal to emotion' and 'ad populum' fallacious rguments.

Oh yeah. It will certainly come to that.

jeffgreen wrote:
I see.  *I* am the only one required to show proof in a debate.  Claims have been made from the other side but *I* am the one not showing proof?  Nihilus, are you that obviously blind?  Surely not.

I fart in your general direction

Admittedly, I did not trace the entirety of the discussion with you and Pat to its initial post, but the topic of a deity's insistence must begin with the believer...for at no point can the assumption of its existence be a logical starting point.

Obviously I am not blind...for, were that the case, I'd be oncapable of reading the light emissions from my monitor that form the words you typed.

And, thankfully these light emmisions do not contain olfactory properties.

KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
-Albert Einstein

And yet...our universe is not infinite...

Pat Thielen wrote:
Wow -- I'm impressed. Way to try to turn this around. What proof did you ask for...? I think you told me to read the bible or some such silliness. If I've forgotten I apologize. I've been asking you for proof for this entire thread of your claims and of course you've ignored my requests. This god of yours is evil and it's stated very clearly throughout the bible through this god's acts and his allowing of evil to be committed. Did you in fact read it? Or did you read the edited version with all the nasty stuff removed? If you've read it, as you claim, you know this to be the case. There is nothing more for me to show you because its all in the bible.\

I'm through with you since you have no desire for honest and open debate.  You said earlier that God was a horrible, sadistic bastard... "it's in the Bible".  I asked you to show me where and you refuse to do so.  You asked for proof and I told you where I got my proof... through archeological digs that uncovered evidence that shows the accuracy of the Bible.  You want me to fly there, take a picture of the evidence, post it, and then you will say "that is in your backyard"... blah blah blah. 

You refuse to be honest.  You refuse to provide proof on your end.  The debate is over. (and no, "it's in the Bible" is NOT proof)

Nihilus wrote:

Admittedly, I did not trace the entirety of the discussion with you and Pat to its initial post, but the topic of a deity's insistence must begin with the believer...for at no point can the assumption of its existence be a logical starting point.

Obviously I am not blind...for, were that the case, I'd be oncapable of reading the light emissions from my monitor that form the words you typed.

And, thankfully these light emmisions do not contain olfactory properties.

you have a nice name and some interesting posts. this fight btween pat and jeff is rather bizarre though

Sian Louise wrote:
Kaitlin said "Either we weren't created through intelligent design, or the designer wasn't that intelligent. 'Hey, I think I'll put in an organ that serves no purpose and sometimes explodes!' Riiiight."

i think kaitlin is funny too but when people said floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee about ali did we all go around looking for his wings?

literal people are scary and the bible is oftentimes poetry.
similie and metaphor. some hardcore religious folks are into being literal when really 40 days and 40 nights generally means a lontime and 7 days can mean seven periods.

if you study astrophysics or geology you generally find that the order in genesis is right and although the world is millions of years old not just over 6000 science is here to neither prove nor disprove god.

science serves all but one question - why. that is faiths fortay, science is the how and the when and the where. some science comes into question when proving authenticity of texts to scientific questions but again the why is up to faith.

religion is about faith. there would be no joy in faith if there was proof. instead it would become like math 1+1=2 but worse because there would be no interesting discourse and no heaven.

if faith wasnt needed to enter his kingdom because everyone knew it was there and it was proven that god existed how would he test mans love and devotion.

and we're back to job. many people see that whole story as a way of easing the burdens of our own trials. its the milk and cookies of lifes hard knocks - if job went through all that and still had faith in gods plan then i can get through this and still love god and trust in him to see me right - you know that kind of thing.

god being sadist is a funny notion but one that many would rather cry at then giggle at. god is love the same way a parent who punishes a child is love. if we let our children put their hands on hot stoves without punishing them they would burn themselves. so if they go near the danger we generally say no thats wrong. i think some people feel that same way about sin. thou shalt not commit adultery is a good example here. anyone involved in cheating will know its painful for all involved. it might feel good at the time but it is a sin because ultimately it is painful and hurtful and thus wrong to do to each other.

i hope the op found his answer and everyone found this thread as interesting as me... i wonder if anyone will have even got to my post due to the length of the thread and this one opinion but i hope see where i'm coming from if you did read this

sian louise

ps i think the apendix did serve a purpose once upon a time when we ate grass but we've evolved. does evolution in ourselves disprove inteligent design? who knows

There is wisdom in this, actually. But I would argue that we don't need a religion or a book to teach us common sense. Obviously, things such as stealing, murder, adultery, etc. are bad -- it hurts people either physically or emotionally. And that isn't something a society can tolerate, nor should people tolerate. We can actually figure this out all by ourselves, and many people have without the benefit of christianity or even an organized religion as we would see it.

  And come on -- isn't Job just a bit over the top? This is a bit more than punishing someone to protect him. What was done to Job was completely unnecessary and was done with malice. Again, if god is omniscient and omnipotent he would have absolutely no reason to test anyone because he would already know. So, to "test" people anyway is simply for yuks and he's obviously a sadist. Why would an all-merciful and all-compassionate deity do this to people when he already knows their hearts? Can anyone give me a rational explanation for this? And telling me god works in strange and mysterious ways is not an explanation. No cop-outs.

  You are right about science and religion; I will give you no argument there.

Nihilus wrote:

And yet...our universe is not infinite...

And yet... something came out of nothing... funny how that works!
And why does it fall on the believer?  The believer in what?  That life just happened?  That life was created?  Both believe, just in different things.  Both require some burden of proof to be provided, no?  Science provides proof that you can not get a life form from absolutely nothing.

SKPhoto wrote:
1 Corinthians 6:12
1 Corinthians 10:23

(After salvation) All things are lawful, not all things are expedient(in furthering your faith).
-Paul

Various translations phrase slightly differently.

I am free to do all things; but not all things are wise. I am free to do all things; but I will not let myself come under the power of any.

Everything is allowable to me, but not everything is profitable. Everything is allowable to me, but to nothing will I become a slave.

All things are lawful, but all are not profitable; all things are lawful, but all do not edify.

Everything is allowable, but not everything is profitable. Everything is allowable, but everything does not build others up.



One thing is true - you must make up your own mind about it, what are your boundaries, what is your goal.  Are you creating exploitation?  Are you feeding the addictions of others?
Decide, then do it with your whole heart.  The rest is between you and your Maker.  And even He says (to paraphrase) If you're going to do something, do it, you are not a child not to know right from wrong.  Have faith, do it with faith, for anything not of faith is sin.  Doubt you are doing the right thing, then don't do it.

The whole spiritual journey salvation thing is so misunderstood by so many.  Do not do anything that would cause "you" to feel that you cannot approach, talk to, or be in the presence of God.  Salvation is simply God saying "Hey, I'm over here, you don't have to be over there and alone."

Remember when you were a child, maybe you did something you were told not to, and then you hid?  You didn't want to see you mom or dad.  But it was sure nice to find out they still loved you.

Sorry long post.  Not phrased well either.

Hey -- this is a good post. I hope the OP gets a chance to see it.

jeffgreen wrote:
And yet... something came out of nothing... funny how that works!

It is. Very counter-intuitive, actually. It happens all the time...we just can't see it.

jeffgreen wrote:
And why does it fall on the believer?

Because no one, by default, assumes something exists without sensory interaction with it or evidence that caters to the senses. We don't start out believing everything exists and whittle it down...it would be ridiculous.

jeffgreen wrote:
The believer in what?

Anything.

jeffgreen wrote:
Science provides proof that you can not get a life form from absolutely nothing.

"Life" is an ambiguous term. Define your characteristics and then we'll see if this comment does indeed hold true with scientific study.

jeffgreen wrote:

I'm through with you since you have no desire for honest and open debate.  You said earlier that God was a horrible, sadistic bastard... "it's in the Bible".  I asked you to show me where and you refuse to do so.  You asked for proof and I told you where I got my proof... through archeological digs that uncovered evidence that shows the accuracy of the Bible.  You want me to fly there, take a picture of the evidence, post it, and then you will say "that is in your backyard"... blah blah blah. 

You refuse to be honest.  You refuse to provide proof on your end.  The debate is over. (and no, "it's in the Bible" is NOT proof)

Myself and others have mentioned parts of the bible (and biblical stories) where this is the case. You come back with some apology for god; like we're not his equal so he can pretty much do as he sees fit. I disagree with that, and you don't know where I'm coming from. I believe ethics apply to god just as much as they do for us. And you don't agree with this. Fine.

  You tell me there's this dig going on somewhere that proves god. And yet, you have no specifics. Because places may be shown to be accurate in the bible this does nothing to prove god exists. Just because they discover town "B" where so and so got stoned to death for saying YHVH outloud does not prove god exists. It only shows the bible was accurate in describing that particular geographical place. I'm asking you to point me to the documents that prove god exists. These don't exist. Methinks you are misinterpreting what they are finding -- attributing conclusions to the evidence that it does not support.

  There is no dishonesty going on here. Read your bible and you will find many occurrences of god being a very nasty being. I shouldn't have to point these out to you if you are in any way a biblical scholar. But you make apologies for god, as you've already determined that he is not to blame when he destroys a city, kills the firstborn of the Egyptians, turns people into pillars of salt, etc.

  So yeah, this is a very pointless discussion.

Sian Louise wrote:

you have a nice name and some interesting posts. this fight btween pat and jeff is rather bizarre though

Yeah, sorry about that.

Outlaw Photography wrote:
Satan wanted Job to denounce God. God knew Job would not do it, that he would retain his faith and not blame God.  ... I wonder how people got the idea that God was punishing Job or testing him?

satan wants everyone to denounce god dear... thats not what is troubling. its that god went to all the trouble to prove what he already know that job had strong faith and would not turn away from god... hence some people being all 'god's a sadist'

*edit* jeff your post about ethics being applied to god is interesting. i loved nietzsche at the moment of his demise when he flung his arms around a horses neck and cried.

(the vegetairian)

anyway if god gave man power/dominion over animals does that mean we ought to take care of them or that they are our belongings.

descartes called animals animated machines, we think therefore we are yet an animal merely has an animated programed responce to pain and such and thus has no soul... is this fair?

why would god allow a souless creature to feel pain? that is my god is a meanie question of the day and i tihnk the only one that ever made me question the church.

Sian Louise wrote:
satan wants everyone to denounce god dear... thats not what is troubling. its that god went to all the trouble to prove what he already know that job had strong faith and would not turn away from god... hence some people being all 'god's a sadist'

yes, that was my point.  When people get hurt or mad and blame God, then Satan wins.  Job was an example of someone with complete faith and God knew it.  It is nice to find someone else who sees this.  So many miss it.

Outlaw Photography wrote:
Satan wanted Job to denounce God. God knew Job would not do it, that he would retain his faith and not blame God.  ... I wonder how people got the idea that God was punishing Job or testing him?

Well.. the point is that god didn't need to test Job in the first place or let Satan play all these games with him. Standing by and letting Satan do all that was an act of evil.

God: "Hey Satan oh pal oh buddy. My main man Job will never denounce me."
Satan: " Really? Well, I'll bet I can get him to!"
God (knowing that he won't because he's omnisciant): "Go for it. You are so going to lose this one!"

Satan: "Damn! You were right."
God: "Yeah, I know. Hey Job -- have a cookie!"

  I don't see this god as being a particularly nice guy. And you can have him -- I appeal to a higher power anyway.

Pat Thielen wrote:
Well.. the point is that god didn't need to test Job in the first place or let Satan play all these games with him. Standing by and letting Satan do all that was an act of evil.

God: "Hey Satan oh pal oh buddy. My main man Job will never denounce me."
Satan: " Really? Well, I'll bet I can get him to!"
God (knowing that he won't because he's omnisciant): "Go for it. You are so going to lose this one!"

Satan: "Damn! You were right."
God: "Yeah, I know. Hey Job -- have a cookie!"

  I don't see this god as being a particularly nice guy. And you can have him -- I appeal to a higher power anyway.

How about, God let Satan test Job so you and I would have an example to follow in our lives, knowing that if we keep our faith, God will step in and fix it at the last possible moment.  Inother words, never give up when you know you are right.

Outlaw Photography wrote:

yes, that was my point.  When people get hurt or mad and blame God, then Satan wins.  Job was an example of someone with complete faith and God knew it.  It is nice to find someone else who sees this.  So many miss it.

Then why would god allow torture to be used to prove what he already knows? This makes no sense whatsoever.

  When I get hurt and mad I don't blame god -- I blame myself for putting myself in that position in the first place. I try to take responsibility for my stupidity and not blame it on god or this Satan-guy. If I ever find out its god doing this to me I'm going to kick his ass.

Outlaw Photography wrote:

How about, God let Satan test Job so you and I would have an example to follow in our lives, knowing that if we keep our faith, God will step in and fix it at the last possible moment.  Inother words, never give up when you know you are right.

I'd much rather have a god that would step up and not allow Satan to torture me in the first place. Guidance doesn't have to be done that way, and faith doesn't need to be inspired in that way. If god is all-loving and all-compassionate I think he would come up with a less nasty way to give us inspiration.

  I'll take care of myself, thank you very much.

Pat Thielen wrote:
Then why would god allow torture to be used to prove what he already knows? This makes no sense whatsoever.

  When I get hurt and mad I don't blame god -- I blame myself for putting myself in that position in the first place. I try to take responsibility for my stupidity and not blame it on god or this Satan-guy. If I ever find out its god doing this to me I'm going to kick his ass.

You must have a long leg to do that one. *LOL*

Outlaw Photography wrote:

You must have a long leg to do that one. *LOL*

Oh, I will!

 

Kasmia wrote:
I felt my IQ drop when I read this thread.

I have no IQ left... It drained out of my brain last night when I slept.

Pat Thielen wrote:

Then why would god allow torture to be used to prove what he already knows? This makes no sense whatsoever.

  When I get hurt and mad I don't blame god -- I blame myself for putting myself in that position in the first place. I try to take responsibility for my stupidity and not blame it on god or this Satan-guy. If I ever find out its god doing this to me I'm going to kick his ass.

you should think metaphorically sometimes... some people don't even believe in hell as a place of torture its just that it is an eternal without gods love and that is the torture. so in fact you could cope in hell if you didnt love god i guess you wouldnt care that he didnt love you? its something i fine confussing to be honest but i dont think i could cope knowing that my own creator felt no love for me. that'd be like your mum turning round and saying F**k you i wish i'd aborted.