Photographer
Old account
Posts: 420
Louisville, Alabama, US
Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
I personally always require photographers to give me a copy of all images done from a shoot for two reasons:
1. Same as your model- to see if there are any other images that may be beneficial to my portfolio.
2. Also, I know what images you, the photographer, have in your possession, so if anything pops up in the future (ie my face on a naked body), I know where it came from and who shot it.
This may seem inconvenient or silly to you, but perhaps you can express your concern for having "unapproved" or "unedited" images you took used for her portfolio, as it may tarnish your reputation. Same goes for her side of the deal, she wouldn't want you to use unapproved images of herself....... The days of digital shooting surely have changed the way the business works. Let me purpose this....
What if this was done with film? Would you expect the photographer to give you all the negatives. That's basically what is going on here. Models want it all when in fact they can't have it. Regradless of what may or may not be aggreed upon at the time of the shoot... Copyright laws say the images in question are leaglly owned by the creator at the time of creation.
How about this... the photographer creates a contact sheet, like the good old days, and provides that to the model, the model then makes his/her choices based on that review. The model release should state that the images can be used for promotional use only. The release should also state the number of images and what resolution the model gets.
Model
Vegas Sarah Ashley
Posts: 833
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I understand the many opinions that have been posted here and I have learned from it over the past day. I have been modeling for about 8 months and I was given a large amount of advice from many people (photographers and models) when I started and the point I made earlier about my head being photoshopped onto naked bodies was one something that I was warned about from a photographer! NOW, I understand that the likeliness of this happening to me is about 0.0000001%. Several people have brought up the solution of having both the photographer and model sit down with the images on a computer and go through them together. This allows both the model and photographer to critique the images and find ones that won't damage EITHER party's reputation. I feel this is very helpful for models to look at what poses or outfits worked best. Of course, this would probably be an agreement for a TFP/TFCD shoot or a shoot that the model is paying for. As for shoots that the model is being paid for, it is the client's rules and what the client wants is what the client gets. In either case, the details regarding the photos should be discussed beforehand in order to avoid this situation in general. I don't want to be known as a pain, picky, or difficult, so I am understanding of each photographer's individual concerns. In reply to the original post, simply do what was agreed beforehand. Do it, learn from it and move on. John Jebbia wrote:
I love it how these 19 & 20 yr olds who found this site and others like it via Myspace or something come in here after getting a wild hair up their ass and decide to be a model. They get this hairbrain idea that they know it all and then want to change the way things are done to suit their needs. Sorry. But are you modeling or are you just taking fucking pictures? And in response to the above quote, which I believe was directed at me and correct me if I am wrong, I believe you have no idea about how I got here and what made decide to model. Modeling is my full time job along with acting and I do very well for myself. So, instead of trying bring others down and making unneeded assumptions, please attempt to keep this site a positive place for people in this industry and lets do what we all do best. And for me that is modeling and for you John, that is taking "fucking pictures." Thank you. 
Photographer
Gallery Row Studio
Posts: 202
Lakewood, Ohio, US
Clique7 Studios wrote:
Had the same issue. Model wanted ALL the shots, good, bad, out of focus, eyes closed, etc. I simply sent her what I wanted. This included a bunch of TIFFS (not Photoshopped a lot) but sharpened and touched a bit. How would she know the difference? I'm with you. I don't want any less than excellent work out there. Don't stress yourself. Give her what you want to.
If your model signed my contract she would know that while she gets photos I still have rights to the photos.
BTW, great port.
Steve Thanks, Steve:)
Photographer
Gallery Row Studio
Posts: 202
Lakewood, Ohio, US
Ryoga Vee wrote:
If you are not confident that all your shots are not going to be perfect, then maybe then is not the profession for you.
~ Ryoga Well, )))))) maybe I should put my lens down right this second? Because I AM TRULY CONFIDENT that all my shots will not be perfect! Any other photographer resigning with me?))))))
This is truly absurd.
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
All i can say is I used to get these things called "Proof Sheets"... remember those? Getting some sort of an equivalent would be cool. Ofcourse I am speaking if tfp/tfcd. Try working with models whom are respectful to your consent on image usage.
I do beleive that 25 photos is very very nice especially if the model was paid...
If a photographer erases images that are not useful, gives files prints of approved images , and low res versions of the shoot for personal viewing only i do not see what the problem is. I of course am an art model though. and dont go slapping up every thing I recieve on the internutz, I have had a few tfcd photographers give me all the images... I appreciate this greatly.
Note once again this is what I am speaking of:TFCD or TFP
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
Ryoga Vee wrote:
If you are not confident that all your shots are not going to be perfect, then maybe then is not the profession for you.
~ Ryoga is that a joke?
So because I am holding a pose and the photographer gets right up in my face and shoots straight up my nose and it looks like crap, that's MY fault? You're saying that since that's not a perfect shot that I should get out of the profession? I wouldn't want the photographer using that photo and he probably wouldn't want me using it either! photo accidents happen and they get thrown out. sometimes photo accidents happen and they DON'T get thrown out. If I don't like a photo a photographer has chosen I don't think he/she should use it (i.e. they think maybe my notrils are attractive and I don't?) and vice versa, if they don't think it's good work then I shouldn't use it either. it goes both ways.
Photographer
Stan The Man
Posts: 733
Brooklyn, Indiana, US
Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
I always read my releases very carefully before I even shoot with a photographer and I ALWAYS reserve the right to approve images that are used for any reason (this sometimes means writing a new release), so if that photographer uses images of me, or a part of an image of me, then I can pursue legal action. Hopefully, taking precautions such as this will ensure that this never happens to me and I will always seem paranoid but it is better than being sorry!!!! thats just wrong...... what are u trying to do build a relationship with photographers.... approve of what when where how.. the photos are used.... i guess you have a lot of time in your hands and nothing better to do.. you are talking about a new release.... so lets say i have 200 images from my shoot with you ... so everytime i wanna use them i MUST CONTACT YOU so i get a new release drafted........ thats just bull and a photographer that agree with that is nothing but a GWDC... NEWS FLASH u shoot with playboy ior whoever else u sign 1 release. not 2 or 3 or 4 or 5
in that wich concern how many photos should be given or what was already sent out... the choice is yours.
i guess to aqvoid this problem thats y some photog delete images on the spot as they go along....
i did i shoot with this guy... nice guy i got about +200 images he expressed his desire to have all the images taken on that day..... well guess what he will get them after i have deleted the one i dont like... eyes shut/ out of focus/ blured and funny enough its just about 20 bad ones....... life goes on.....
TRUTH IS WHAT ARE THE RULES OF TFCD AND TFP....... NO RULES....
simple example on the cd given to the model some photog will give only wed ready images no hi res ones..... others will throw in a couple of hi res chosen by the models.... i give 2 set... 1 hi res 1 low res (1 black and white optional).... thats the way i wanna do it and it does not bother me at all
Photographer
T H Taylor
Posts: 6862
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
No, do not give away your raw images... Would you give a model your negs?
Give her a low res web- contact sheet... She'll be able to see her poses good enough from that.
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2925
Calhoun, Georgia, US
Olesja Mueller wrote:
I did a fashion TFCD shoot with a model, and now she wants to get all the pix from it to see if she can find something else for her book than what I have already picked and retouched (about 25 shots, some of them you can see in my port at the top). She says it's OK that they are not retouched, she just wants to see some more poses, etc. I think it's not OK, as the light was far from perfect (outdoors hoot) and I had to do quite a bit of levels, curves, contrast, etc. to make it look good.
I care about my reputation as a photog and I am not crazy about the idea. However, she is really bugging me now:)))) What would you do?
HELP!) NO NO Never Toss out the bad or even marginal.... An old saying "you can tell a good photographer by how big his trash can is"
Photographer
David Holloway
Posts: 713
Liberty Lake, Washington, US
Meagan M Power wrote:
I definitely think you should! I always ask for all of mine. I like to see the bad ones, because then I know what worked, what didn't, what pose looked good, which one I shouls never attempt again. If you do give them to her, write a contract on your comp first. Simply state that you have a 50 percent ownership of the photos and therefore must approve photos before they are printed. It is a legally binding contract and if she wants them, she will sign. Actually as the photographer I own 100% of the copyright unless it is a work for hire or I gave you 50% ownership (would never happen). Remember just because you get in front of my camera doesn't give you ownership of the photos. Hell even as an amateur I know that!
D.
Photographer
John Van
Posts: 3122
Vienna, Wien, Austria
Here in Cyprus, I have given or promised the models all images on a CD, with a few retouched. I tell them the limited rights they have, but that's about it.
In the US, I didn't do that. So far here, I trust the models I have worked with not to post bad shots and I know none of them are really aspiring models aiming to start their own site, publish a calendar or whatever.
I must say, though, that this is partly because I'm still not good enough at Photoshop to think my work is stellar (in the US, I outsourced the PS work) and because I'm not a pro. If I were pro, I would be much more strict (and I probably would stop doing TFCD).
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
What's a person's word worth? On three occaisions during my first year of shooting digital with models on OMP I had models PROMISE ME they would NOT use the shots on the "unedited" CD. All three models LIED and posted shots which made me look like a hack GWC. One had her BOYFRIEND - who "was good at photoshop" - completly reimage the photo into a nauseus mixture of glow and blur. And of course, my name was underneath all three as the photog. That was the end of my generosity of burning a CD of all images right after a shoot.
I liked, and in one of the models continue to like, all three models. But I don't trust any model, sorry. YOU WILL SIGN a release stating only ME OR MY ASSIGNS will photoshop when/if necessary. YOU WILL RECIEVE images from me that are suitably sized for web posting and WITH my logo attached. YOU CAN POST only exactly what I send and only on "free sites" that's it!
Something else occured to me on this subject. If the model is shooting with me whether I paid/the model paid/TFCD the model shot because they LIKE my work, they respect/admire it. So why want anything BUT my work???
Photographer
David Holloway
Posts: 713
Liberty Lake, Washington, US
Alex wrote:
I like to see all the shots taken so that can study my poses and expressions.
You both shot for free so unless you aranged otherwise I think it would be unethical of you and an abuse of your power to erase the images before letting the model see them.
When I do tfp/cd I expect a cd with all the original images from the shoot and then the photographer's pick edited. this is the norm. In future if you plan on doing otherwise, lay it out to the model before shooting, not after. How is it unethical and an abuse of power to get rid of something that I own (i.e. Copyright)? The consensus I get from this thread is that it is not the norm to give all the unedited photos from a shoot to the model.
D.
Photographer
The Don Mon
Posts: 3315
Ocala, Florida, US
Olesja Mueller wrote:
I did a fashion TFCD shoot with a model, and now she wants to get all the pix from it to see if she can find something else for her book than what I have already picked and retouched (about 25 shots, some of them you can see in my port at the top). She says it's OK that they are not retouched, she just wants to see some more poses, etc. I think it's not OK, as the light was far from perfect (outdoors hoot) and I had to do quite a bit of levels, curves, contrast, etc. to make it look good.
I care about my reputation as a photog and I am not crazy about the idea. However, she is really bugging me now:)))) What would you do?
HELP!) nothing wrong with it...its tfp
thats why she shot with you is for her port......
models have different taste or they need something different
so let her pick which ones she needs....
i give all my pics at tfp's...and touched up ones...
they have different taste then you or they just need different shots
go ahead its no biggy for tfp...
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
one of the photographers I work with quite often gives me every single picture he's taken. He puts them up on his website and sends me the link (you wouldn't be able to access the page unless you knew the link) and then burns them off to a CD and mails it to me. it works fine for both of us, we haven't had any problems so far.....I guess I just don't see what the potential problems would be? You aren't every model
He isn't every photographer
That's what the potential problems could be
be glad with the arrangement you have but don't think everyone else should abide by it
Model
Ryoga Vee
Posts: 148
Sunnyvale, California, US
Olesja Mueller wrote:
Well, )))))) maybe I should put my lens down right this second? Because I AM TRULY CONFIDENT that all my shots will not be perfect! Any other photographer resigning with me?))))))
This is truly absurd. The point I was making is of course not everything is going to be perfect. But if you are more worried about perfection and limited what the model receives as compensation then there is a problem.
Iâve personally never been denied all the photos from a shoot before. And I know what crap is and whatâs not, but that of course is my opinion. And I guess im kidna bias because im thinking of this from a graphic design perspective. I (personally) know that even with the crappy junk shot, I can make something useful out of them. So I tend to want more / most of what was taken over the duration of the shoot.
I do think there are exceptions. If it takes more than one CD worth of data to give all the photos taken to a model then I see no problem with tossing out the junk.
If the photographer wants to touch up a few thatâs on him / her. But if I spend 2-4 hours shooting and I only have 25 photos to show for my time I might feel a lil jipped.
I think if a photographer does not want certain photos posted, displayed, ect. Then s/he should say so. I.E. explain that only âXâ photos are indented for use, and the "trash" should not be credited to him. I know thatâs really unlikely but thatâs the best thing I can think of.
But hey, what do I know, Iâm just a model.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
David Holloway wrote:
How is it unethical and an abuse of power to get rid of something that I own (i.e. Copyright)? The consensus I get from this thread is that it is not the norm to give all the unedited photos from a shoot to the model.
D. My experience runs contrary to the posts in this thread.
But then again, I want proofs of everything, too.
Bad model!
Model
Adrienne Aurora
Posts: 2745
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I wouldn't want all the pics from the shoot. What would I do with them??
Model
Ryoga Vee
Posts: 148
Sunnyvale, California, US
David Holloway wrote:
How is it unethical and an abuse of power to get rid of something that I own (i.e. Copyright)? The consensus I get from this thread is that it is not the norm to give all the unedited photos from a shoot to the model.
D. I think what we are getting at is unless you pay for it (money changing hands) you donât own it (in theory). TFP means just that, you shoot we take the photos, good or bad.
You are paying for a models time by providing photos of the work done during that time. If you only give a portion of that then thatâs reneging on the deal in my opinion.
You pretty much have the mentality of,
"I'm the photographer, itâs mine, mine, mine, mine! Youâll eat bread and water and like it!"
Model
insert stupid modelname
Posts: 102
Sacramento, California, US
I always request ALL the pictures from my shoots on TFCD's however I make all my requests and clarifications BEFOREHAND so both the photog and I know whats expected. I don't, however, request them 'in case the photographer overlooked a good one.'
I get 2 cd's. One is the finalled edited pics that are for my use in my portfolio, etc. The second cd is for me only. Not for public use. I use this to study the 'bad' pics and learn from then so that I can grow as a model. No one other than me ever sees them though.
I think that 25 finalled pics is great. Obviously, this is depending on what was agreed upon beforehand, but maybe just a contact sheet of the rest of the pics would be good enough for your model?
Model
Ryoga Vee
Posts: 148
Sunnyvale, California, US
Treja wrote:
I get 2 cd's. One is the finalled edited pics that are for my use in my portfolio, etc. The second cd is for me only. Not for public use. I use this to study the 'bad' pics and learn from then so that I can grow as a model. No one other than me ever sees them though. Well Said
Photographer
Tavell Brown
Posts: 11
Nashville, Tennessee, US
We'll i always give the model and make up artist images from the whole shoot and ones ive retouched and that i like but i let them know that if there are any they want for the book or retouched ill do them and get them back to them asap. cause the might see somehting i dont or there looking for something in their books that im not.
Photographer
RRCPhoto
Posts: 548
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand
Ryoga Vee wrote:
You are paying for a models time by providing photos of the work done during that time. If you only give a portion of that then thatâs reneging on the deal in my opinion. Not necessarily - dependant upon the model and also what we review, I could spend up to 3 times the amount of time post processing than the actual shoot. Not usually, but there has been a few cases where that has happened. From a "my time" versus "your time" perspective - I spend far more of it than the model does. Your time commitment ends as soon as we say..that's a wrap for the day.
The first time I went out and shot with a model, I gave her the entire shoot - and yes, then I got the same thing happen to me when she dodged / burned / oversaturated the images and linked back to me! ugh. Never did that stupid thing again *grin*
Now - I give out small versions for pose information, etc - that's helpful, plus the final images that I have touched up and is color corrected / sized for print if the model so wants. Under most cases, the model never gets all the images, unless she asks for them. Some of the never want to see it. That choice is theirs.
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
I've noticed how several models want to see all the images so they can "see what pose works" and "learn from the shoot" - This ain't no modeling school hun! Stand in front of a mirror, have your dufus b/f with his cell phone camera take snaps of you. I'm not wasting my time going through ALL the raw images, deleting one by one all the ones that are out of focus, eyes closed, bad lighting, convert to jpeg, put a translucent PROOF watermark on it, resize, then upload to the interenet just so you can see and learn better. Even if it all takes just a few mouse clicks its far more time than I 'm gonna spend when I can spend that time PS'ing the quality images we'd actually use on our ports.
Model
luv2bfitt
Posts: 725
Merrimack, New Hampshire, US
Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
...So, instead of trying bring others down and making unneeded assumptions, please attempt to keep this site a positive place for people in this industry and lets do what we all do best. And for me that is modeling and for you John, that is taking "fucking pictures." Thank you. Not to Hijack the thread, but I think that overall this is a good idea. I recomend you stay out of the "Off-Topic" forum, because bringing others down with unneeded assumptions is often all that ever goes on, there.....
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
Jessalyn_54 wrote:
one of the photographers I work with quite often gives me every single picture he's taken. He puts them up on his website and sends me the link (you wouldn't be able to access the page unless you knew the link) and then burns them off to a CD and mails it to me. it works fine for both of us, we haven't had any problems so far.....I guess I just don't see what the potential problems would be? vanscottie wrote:
You aren't every model
He isn't every photographer
That's what the potential problems could be
be glad with the arrangement you have but don't think everyone else should abide by it I didn't say that everyone should abide by it, I just gave an example of my situation. my question was, what are the potential problems? I never said that every model should be given every photo.
Photographer
Brandon Zackery Imagery
Posts: 355
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Wait. You've already retouched 25 photos for her and she wants more?! That's easy. Tell her sorry, but that will not be possible. I assume you came to an agreement beforehand and therefore, that's all there is. 25 should be plenty. And to think...20 of those will never see the light of day. What is wrong with some models?!?
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Ryoga Vee wrote:
Well Said If all were smart enough to understand that and honor that, then probably more photographers would do it....but it's the few bad apples.
Photographer
Studio NekMod
Posts: 4
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Visions Of Excess Studi wrote:
It's simple. Unless I'm being contracted out and paid, this is a non-issue. Copyright is mine and a model isn't going to dictate terms to me. So, I guess the ones who think they can just won't work with me. And, our poster from LV will discover most photographers will have the same policy. Ditto. Plain and simple. Agreed.
Model
Ryoga Vee
Posts: 148
Sunnyvale, California, US
Studio NM wrote:
Ditto. Plain and simple. Agreed. So... on those terms (in the case of TFP) you get to make money, hold the copyright, and the model gets nothing but the few photos "you" think they should have. I dont agree.
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
Ryoga Vee wrote:
So... on those terms (in the case of TFP) you get to make money, hold the copyright, and the model gets nothing but the few photos "you" think they should have. I dont agree. Then don't work with him, plain and simple
who cares what you "agree with"
Photographer
vanscottie
Posts: 1190
Winnetka, California, US
Jay Farrell wrote:
If all were smart enough to understand that and honor that, then probably more photographers would do it....but it's the few bad apples. So if we don't agree with you we aren't "smart enough" or have no honor??? Gee, try and be a little more condescending in you're next post.
Photographer
Suburbatopia
Posts: 10
Washington, District of Columbia, US
What you agreed to **(of course you have this in writing)** is what you should do. If she/he is just asking for more and more and more - it's just about her/him.
I do three "best of" shots of what I approve. It's in my profile, my release, and it is what I say.
This is my policy. It's clear. You should NEVER be afraid to be clear. You should also NEVER be afraid to walk.
Non-attachment is king.
Photographer
Illustrated Imagery
Posts: 93
This has got to be one of the bumbest threads I've ever seen. What did you all do before digital? Expect double copies of the negatives?
There may be some so called want-to-be photographers out there dumb enough to give you RAW files and ALL the unedited images. I'm not one of them though. The sun does not rise and set in a models ass.
People be reasonanable. Yes there are a few bad ones out there that will not live up to the agreement but come on you use words in your bios like I'm very prompt,bla,bla, and professional. What's professional about it when you go into a shoot with the idea that soemone is going to rip you off. I'd say if you think that way you are not using good judgement in the first place.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
vanscottie wrote:
I've noticed how several models want to see all the images so they can "see what pose works" and "learn from the shoot" - This ain't no modeling school hun! Stand in front of a mirror, have your dufus b/f with his cell phone camera take snaps of you. I'm not wasting my time going through ALL the raw images, deleting one by one all the ones that are out of focus, eyes closed, bad lighting, convert to jpeg, put a translucent PROOF watermark on it, resize, then upload to the interenet just so you can see and learn better. Even if it all takes just a few mouse clicks its far more time than I 'm gonna spend when I can spend that time PS'ing the quality images we'd actually use on our ports. What do you think TFP is for? You really think standing in front of a mirror or having your dufus boyfriend is going to give the same results as actually seeing the results of the shoot?
Don't go through all the raw photos. Create a batch action. Burn to CD. Takes much less time and effort than it does to complain about it here.
Model
Claire Elizabeth
Posts: 1550
Exton, Pennsylvania, US
TFCD does not mean the model should get every damn shot lol. Maybe it would be better to dicuss how many shots you will give ahead of time to avoid conflict later? In any event I would think that 25 shots is plenty-don't be a pushover and give in.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
Ryoga Vee wrote:
I think what we are getting at is unless you pay for it (money changing hands) you donât own it (in theory). TFP means just that, you shoot we take the photos, good or bad.
You are paying for a models time by providing photos of the work done during that time. If you only give a portion of that then thatâs reneging on the deal in my opinion.
You pretty much have the mentality of,
"I'm the photographer, itâs mine, mine, mine, mine! Youâll eat bread and water and like it!" According to copyright law, you (the photographer) does own it. In theory and in fact. Money changing hands is irrelevant and TFP doesn't change the basis of copyright law.
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
vanscottie wrote:
So if we don't agree with you we aren't "smart enough" or have no honor??? Gee, try and be a little more condescending in you're next post. No you sanctimonious prick, follow the threading....
Treja wrote:
I get 2 cd's. One is the finalled edited pics that are for my use in my portfolio, etc. The second cd is for me only. Not for public use. I use this to study the 'bad' pics and learn from then so that I can grow as a model. No one other than me ever sees them though.
Well Said
My point was that if every model kept their word like that one did, maybe more of us would be flexible on the raw image release.....understand what the hell you are accusing me of before you do it. The war isn;t against me, until you ran your mouth towards me for no reason, I agreed with pretty much every post you made in this thread.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
Illustrated Imagery wrote:
Theda,
Do you know what a "RAW" image is? Yes. Thanks for asking.
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