Olesja Mueller wrote:
I did a fashion TFCD shoot with a model, and now she wants to get all the pix from it to see if she can find something else for her book than what I have already picked and retouched (about 25 shots, some of them you can see in my port at the top). She says it's OK that they are not retouched, she just wants to see some more poses, etc. I think it's not OK, as the light was far from perfect (outdoors hoot) and I had to do quite a bit of levels, curves, contrast, etc. to make it look good.
I care about my reputation as a photog and I am not crazy about the idea. However, she is really bugging me now:)))) What would you do?

HELP!)

Why not just create contact sheets in Photoshop with file names and have her look them over.  I make them 13" x 19" and tell the model to choose her 10 favorite.  However, these are paid shoots, NOT TFCD.  The beauty of the sheets is that they are small, but big enough to look over.

Yes, models have asked for copies of the Compact Flash cards but I respond with the contact sheets.

John Jebbia wrote:
Solution: She stated that she just wanted to view the rest of the photos just so she can see if there's anything you overlooked, right? Then make a compromise with her. Upload a gallery with all of the photos with the word "PROOF" prominently printed on each photo.. (not in a place where it can easily be cropped out. Across the middle of the photos should suffice. Just make the text semi-transparent so she can see the entire photo, but prominent enough to discourage her from downloading them. Also, make the images too small to be worth a shit. 300X?. From those allow her to choose the ones she wants edited.

This seems like a good answer.

Chloe248 wrote:
i always had access to all the photos taken at a shoot (except completely bombed lighting effects or blinking, or half- blinkink shots) and usually go over each of them with the photographer. Why some are considered successfull and some arent.
usually we end up picking similar pictures as favorites.

Why cant she see them? i know im excited about seeing all the shots my work went into. it doesnt mean she wants them touched up does she?

if thats the case, in the future it should be arranged that she can pick x many photos for you to retouch. if your faves overlap, less work for you.

I think there's a differing opinion on "see" versus "have" - I like going through the smaller contacts with the models afterwards, I find I learn something, hear their views on it and both are wiser and better for the experience.  That would be "see" - however, to simply dump my CF cards onto a DVD (btw .. do we now have to start saying TFDVD?  CD's are so small....) is a waste of everyone's time.  Not to mention that a model would be handling the multi-megabyte RAW image on what usually is a underpowered machine that isn't color calibrated.

I can scan through the images quickly dump them down into smaller contact sheet sized images easily enough, weed out the bad ones (darn cloud got in the way, blinking, etc) and then focus on the few I like...and have him/her pick out the ones that she likes...if we both agree (I have to agree with one poster...had one model that picked the most horrendous shots of even herself...).  My agreements for TFP/CD/DVD *grin* have how many large edited final images the model will get at the end.  X number of ones I select, and how many she can select.

Ed Stevenson wrote:
Why is this even a question.

You do what you agreed to do before the shoot - nothing more and nothing less.

Just as the model did what she agreed to before the shoot - nothing more and nothing less.

Now, if a model does more than we agreed to or I believe has earned more than what was agreed - I will provide extra compensation. - A TIP.  Up to me.

In your case, it is after the fact.  You have to ask yourself if you want to do more work with this model.  If so, keep her happy.  If not, why are you stressing.

I'm with Ed. 

Or, at least, after viewing his portfolio, I wish I was. 

Ed Stevenson wrote:
Just as the model did what she agreed to before the shoot - nothing more and nothing less.

what if the model sucked?  do you want your stamp on that?

your answer is to deliver non-model level imaging.  does that not have a reflection on the photographer toward confirmation of having enough sense in determining a model / not a model?

in the land of let's take pictures i suppose that is well and good; hobby for hobby.  it isn't if one wants to be taken seriously in the land of model imaging.

--face reality

John Jebbia wrote:
Solution: She stated that she just wanted to view the rest of the photos just so she can see if there's anything you overlooked, right? Then make a compromise with her. Upload a gallery with all of the photos with the word "PROOF" prominently printed on each photo.. (not in a place where it can easily be cropped out. Across the middle of the photos should suffice. Just make the text semi-transparent so she can see the entire photo, but prominent enough to discourage her from downloading them. Also, make the images too small to be worth a shit. 300X?. From those allow her to choose the ones she wants edited.

THANKS!!!!! This is the BEST solution, which keeps everyone happy:) Even me, although I now have to mess with all the shots posting PROOF on them, after I already edited the hell out of 25 images....But my bad was the release that did not involve anything about how many images, only about the copyright. All the rest was just our oral agreement, not written one...
I will do that, just to make the model happy.

Olesja Mueller wrote:
THANKS!!!!! This is the BEST solution, which keeps everyone happy:) Even me, although I now have to mess with all the shots posting PROOF on them, after I already edited the hell out of 25 images....But my bad was the release that did not involve anything about how many images, only about the copyright. All the rest was just our oral agreement, not written one...
I will do that, just to make the model happy.

You should be able to create an action in Photoshop that would make the process automated. Glad I could help.

The Digital Difference wrote:

Why not just create contact sheets in Photoshop with file names and have her look them over.  I make them 13" x 19" and tell the model to choose her 10 favorite.  However, these are paid shoots, NOT TFCD.  The beauty of the sheets is that they are small, but big enough to look over.

Yes, models have asked for copies of the Compact Flash cards but I respond with the contact sheets.

This is a very good idea, thank you so much!

SensuousEye wrote:
By the way, just so there's no confusion regarding my own practices (not that anyone really cares yet, from what I can tell), but I'm not against letting models see all the arguably-good shots (i.e., the ones I didn't delete on sight) from the shoot. 

As one model here pointed out, photographers and models have different needs sometimes for the shots.  They also, most likely, have differing TASTES in terms of what they think is best. 

I think the model should be able to pick which images she wanted me to process for her to have to keep.  I just wouldn't want to give unprocessed photos that may have only temporarily escaped the trash. 

So I personally would show proofs of anything that wasn't just plainly trash and work with the model to make sure she got what she wanted from the shoot.

This was my initial solution. I arranged for the model to come over to see the pics together with me, so if she really prefers some others over the ones I already did, I would let her pick max 10. Now a little rant:) I made arrangements, and cancelled some personal plans for it, but she did not show up, did not call, did not answer my 3 calls. Then I emailed her later in the week, and she just now answered via email, that it is inconvenient for her to come by, and if I can just mail her the CD with the edited shots, as well as all the rest that I thought were just OK. I do not want my just OK shots floating around, and I hate a thought of retouching the same types of shots I already did retouch, just because she might like the pose a little better...Oh well..next time my release will promptly state how many images...I never ran into this problem before, I guess this model is really desperate to fill her book....But she is definetely hard worker, and I don't want to piss her off. In our industry word of mouth means a lot...

Mars Photography wrote:
OK, heres my two cents. A novelist doesn't publish every draft of a book and a musician doesn't put every "take" of a studio sessions on an album. This is the same approach that many photographers take. We only want the best versions of our work available to the public. Therefore, I dont think that it is unreasonable to limit the number of pics provided to a model. But....you should agree to the number of images you will provide BEFORE the shoot. That way you can avoid having to argue about the number of pics you will provide. It will also allow you to weed out those models that don't respect your right to control the quality of the pics you make available to the public. I always tell models that they will get 20 pics from the photo shoot. However, I usually give them 25-40 pics. I have no problem giving them ALL the good pics. I just want to have the ability to determine which pics are and aren't good. The trick is to have the discussion before the shoot.

Believe me, I did have a discussion. I just did not put it in writing, my bad:( I am so sick of these "contracts", I do have a release about copyright, all the rest to me was just common sense human agreement, but I guess that just does not work. I told her that I will get her about 15 images, and that I will be picking them keeping in mind her as a model, not only my "phtographer" approach. Meaning, I would not do the picture where she looks fat although the lighting might be perfect on it. I am a woman myself, and I do understand that point. However, now she is pushing me to give her more images....well, first of all it is sad that she is not excited about the ones I have edited, obviously - she said a few are great, then that "a few" turned into only a couple...))That's why she wants to see the rest, and also comes up with this: some photos can look good for the web, but for the print they are too contrasty, too "retouched" Never heard of this - anyone? The whole thing is a mess - like one poster said early on here, if every detail was not mentioned in the contract, things will get messy.
I will not work with the model anymore, I am pretty sure, just because of the amount of retouching I had to do - she is very beautiful, but came out a little strange....and also because of her being so pushy. But I do care about my repute, and what she will be telling others....I want to make it here, so I want good PR.

Mars Photography wrote:
Ok Ok...two more cents. The problem with having models choose pics is that they are not photographers. They don't spend as much time as we do considering things like color relationships, composition, tonal relationships, exposure, depth of field etc. They may choose a pic because they love the pose without considering that the pic is over exposed or poorly composed. Dont get me wrong, I'm not implying that a model can't understand these things. I'm just saying that its rare.

ok I hadn't thought about that. my dad is a photographer (hobby since he was 16) so I know about all of that stuff With the photographer that gives me all of the images it's fun to see which ones I choose to post on my port and which ones he chooses. Most of the time they are the same pictures

Mars Photography wrote:
Ok Ok...two more cents. The problem with having models choose pics is that they are not photographers. They don't spend as much time as we do considering things like color relationships, composition, tonal relationships, exposure, depth of field etc.

it's because of those things photographers aren't very good at choosing either.  models and photographers alike are usually pretty bad at picking marketable imaging.  both only think they are good at it but they aren't removed enough to make good choices.  that job belongs to a photo editor or agent.

--face reality

Hamza wrote:
She only needs the best ONE or TWO pics from every outfit.  It's not like she's going to post 100 pics of her in the same red dress...

bingo.

--face reality

Olesja Mueller wrote:
This was my initial solution. I arranged for the model to come over to see the pics together with me, so if she really prefers some others over the ones I already did, I would let her pick max 10. Now a little rant:) I made arrangements, and cancelled some personal plans for it, but she did not show up, did not call, did not answer my 3 calls....

Well, well . . . as Jeff Lebowski said
"New shit has come to light!"

ArtisticDigitalImages wrote:
If you aren't willing to delete the image you need to be willing to provide them to the model.

She has no right to images you deleted. You have no right to omages she did not get full resolution copies (jpeg) of.

Just my opinion.

What world are you living in?

Keni wrote:
Let's face it, many times what a photographer wants from a TFP shoot is drastically different from what the model is hoping to get.  I've had photographers PhotoShop into surealistic land, done extreme color changes and other edits that don't help me with my portfolio.  Even the best photographers usually choose a shot, or shots, that are more extreme then what I can use.

I "nicely" ask up front if the photographer would provide me a digital proof sheet so I can check all the photo's (haven't had one say no, yet).  They are very low quality, and very small, but big enough to get a good idea of which are best.  Usually they will send them to me via email right after the shoot and before they edit.  Some have used an online service like Photobucket to post them with a password.  The photographer can always veto one of my choices with an explanation - I understand that they don't want poor quality going out, and it is difficult to judge sometimes in a thumbnail.

I understand that a photographer may not want to let a model see all the photos because some might not be good photos - over/under exposed, bad lighting, not in focus.  It's TFP - purpose, to experiment with new techniques, lighting etc.  I'm just looking for the 1 or 2 great shots for my book.

See, easy solution.  From what I have experienced, only takes a moment to accomplish, and everyone has wonderful photos. 

Reasonable enough.

Mars Photography wrote:
OK, heres my two cents. A novelist doesn't publish every draft of a book and a musician doesn't put every "take" of a studio sessions on an album. This is the same approach that many photographers take. We only want the best versions of our work available to the public. Therefore, I dont think that it is unreasonable to limit the number of pics provided to a model. But....you should agree to the number of images you will provide BEFORE the shoot. That way you can avoid having to argue about the number of pics you will provide. It will also allow you to weed out those models that don't respect your right to control the quality of the pics you make available to the public. I always tell models that they will get 20 pics from the photo shoot. However, I usually give them 25-40 pics. I have no problem giving them ALL the good pics. I just want to have the ability to determine which pics are and aren't good. The trick is to have the discussion before the shoot.

Well said.  Its best when possible to have things clear before a shoot but if
you miss something then its time to come to a understanding.  Keep control
of your art!  Some photographers while thinking they are being kind and helpful
really hurt us as a group.  Models think well the last guy gave me all the images
so why can't you.  The most basic point is a artist must make the choices on
who their work is viewed and by who.

FaceReality wrote:
it's because of those things photographers aren't very good at choosing either.  models and photographers alike are usually pretty bad at picking marketable imaging.  both only think they are good at it but they aren't removed enough to make good choices.  that job belongs to a photo editor or agent.

--face reality

I totally agree with this. A lot of photographers are stating "well I don't want the model posting my terrible work out there" well a model has to deal with a photographer posting HER terrible work out there and she has nothing to say about it! There are a few pictures out there on photographers ports that I do NOT like. They aren't flattering in one way or another. I had no say in it. I did ask nicely that one photographer take down a picture that made my thigh look HUGE but he said "oh no it doesn't, I'm leaving it up". There was another where you could see RIGHT up my nose and I didn't like it, but the photographer wouldn't take it down. So both of our reputations are at stake here and sometimes neither the model nor the photographer knows what they are talking about! if a photographer posts a picture of me that I don't like then I won't link to him (that's assuming I've asked him to take it down and he refuses)

Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
I personally always require photographers to give me a copy of all images done from a shoot for two reasons:

1.  Same as your model- to see if there are any other images that may be beneficial to my portfolio.

2.  Also, I know what images you, the photographer, have in your possession, so if anything pops up in the future (ie my face on a naked body), I know where it came from and who shot it.

This may seem inconvenient or silly to you, but perhaps you can express your concern for having "unapproved" or "unedited" images you took used for her portfolio, as it may tarnish your reputation.  Same goes for her side of the deal, she wouldn't want you to use unapproved images of herself.......

Oh for gods' sakes
Not the "my head on naked body" bs again
Unless you are Sally Celebrity it just ain't worth the bother to DO this when so many girls are willing to pose nude
Assuming it happens, it's a LOT more likely someone you KNOW downloaded the pic somewhere & did it than that the photographer did it, so your "proof" wouldn't mean anything

What YOU think may be beneficial to your port may not show ME off well as a photographer, as noted models often pick the WORST shots of themselves (and often can't pick out flattering clothing or do their street makeup decently for that matter).  "Expressing my concern" does me jack-all good when some half assed shot where I screwed up or caught a bad cloud screwing up my lighting or some such where she's photoshopped it badly shows up & hurts my rep.  Sure I send the model a disc of all the images, but in low res & small size with a GIANT watermark.  She can review them and ASK for an image but if I think it looks bad I will say "no."

And as far as "require" goes, if I'm paying you or hiring you for a client you can consider it a FAVOR to get ANY images.

Iris Swope wrote:
^^ Paranoid....
1. There's plenty of nude models....no one needs to take the time to paste your head on a body.
2. Who's to say that someone didn't download an image from your port, and paste your head on a naked body.
3. Paranoid

Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
It is perfectly reasonable to be paranoid in this field....yes, there are many nude models, however not many who want their faces posted on the infamous Las Vegas calling cards or even escort advertisements.  Also, yes they could easily download an images from my port, however, at least me or my photographer can pursue legal action.  I could understand if this kind of thing never happened, but it does, perhaps more so in Las Vegas and I know photographers even listed on this website who have that reputation......I feel I am justified.  However, it is ONLY my opinion. 

That's frankly ridiculous
It's WAY easier to download any number of nude images off the net or get stock nudes or hire or do TFP with some girl & get her to sign a release where you can use their pics for ANYTHING than to photoshop a head on someone's body
It would take me at LEAST several minutes to photoshop your head to a naked body whereas just downloaading a naked pic takes seconds at most

Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
I always read my releases very carefully before I even shoot with a photographer and I ALWAYS reserve the right to approve images that are used for any reason (this sometimes means writing a new release), so if that photographer uses images of me, or a part of an image of me, then I can pursue legal action.  Hopefully, taking precautions such as this will ensure that this never happens to me and I will always seem paranoid but it is better than being sorry!!!!

Why in the WORLD would anyone agree to a release like this?
It basically renders any image of you pretty much unuseable and no commercial client wouldd ever agree to it.

Keni wrote:
Let's face it, many times what a photographer wants from a TFP shoot is drastically different from what the model is hoping to get.  I've had photographers PhotoShop into surealistic land, done extreme color changes and other edits that don't help me with my portfolio.  Even the best photographers usually choose a shot, or shots, that are more extreme then what I can use.

I "nicely" ask up front if the photographer would provide me a digital proof sheet so I can check all the photo's (haven't had one say no, yet).  They are very low quality, and very small, but big enough to get a good idea of which are best.  Usually they will send them to me via email right after the shoot and before they edit.  Some have used an online service like Photobucket to post them with a password.  The photographer can always veto one of my choices with an explanation - I understand that they don't want poor quality going out, and it is difficult to judge sometimes in a thumbnail.

I understand that a photographer may not want to let a model see all the photos because some might not be good photos - over/under exposed, bad lighting, not in focus.  It's TFP - purpose, to experiment with new techniques, lighting etc.  I'm just looking for the 1 or 2 great shots for my book.

See, easy solution.  From what I have experienced, only takes a moment to accomplish, and everyone has wonderful photos. 

It would seem to me that clearly establishing things with the photographer up front (IE, ok you get shots of me in alien landscapes, I get high fashion images) would alleviate a lot of this.
Put it in writing if need be.

Jessalyn_54 wrote:
one of the photographers I work with quite often gives me every single picture he's taken. He puts them up on his website and sends me the link (you wouldn't be able to access the page unless you knew the link) and then burns them off to a CD and mails it to me. it works fine for both of us, we haven't had any problems so far.....I guess I just don't see what the potential problems would be?

I'd say that's because you know this guy & have a rapport with him & he trusts you not to do anything with the images that might make him look bad.  Most of us don't have that luxury with a lot of the folks we work with.

Olesja Mueller wrote:
I am so sick of these "contracts", I do have a release about copyright, all the rest to me was just common sense human agreement, but I guess that just does not work.

Common sense is a myth.
Get it in writing.

Sarah_LasVegas wrote:
I always read my releases very carefully before I even shoot with a photographer and I ALWAYS reserve the right to approve images that are used for any reason (this sometimes means writing a new release), so if that photographer uses images of me, or a part of an image of me, then I can pursue legal action.  Hopefully, taking precautions such as this will ensure that this never happens to me and I will always seem paranoid but it is better than being sorry!!!!

Ok. Tell you what. You're pretty hot. I will agree to this, but rather than paying you a $75/hour rate, I'll pay you per image that you approve. I typically shoot about 80 images an hour. So how does $1.10/image approved sound. I'm willing to bet you approve a shitload of images then.