David Moyle wrote:

It's just too bad you judge all Christians because of a relative few that happen to be more vocal than the less radical ones. Seems kind of like hating all Muslims for the same reason. Seems kind of hypocrytical to preach "don't generalize all people of a group" in one instance, but not in another.

Some of us think nudity is beautiful. Some of us don't tell others they will go to hell for posing nude.

But, hey, whatever it takes to rationalize your own intolerance.

Hey, some of my best friends are Christians.

*I've always wanted to put that shoe on the other foot*

Dave Krueger wrote:

Actually, I don't judge ALL Christians the same.  There's the ones I know and like and then there's the ones I know and don't like.  Then there's the ones I don't know.  Rather than go out and meet them all, I tend to lump them with the ones I don't like just to be on the safe side.

-Dave

Well, whatever works for ya.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Hey, some of my best friends are Christians.

*I've always wanted to put that shoe on the other foot*

I've never been able to say that. Most Black people won't talk to me at all, they see a white male coming and cross the street.

Jack Curtis wrote:
#1. Have you ever willingly viewed an Adult film?
#2. After having done so, have you ever willing viewed ANOTHER Adult film?

(now first, find me 10 people in the same state over 18 who could give you a no to both questions and pass a polygraph and I'll personally bake you a triple batch of those gooey vodka brownies)

If you answer both questions with a yes, than it is awfully hypocritical to denounce and chastise an industry you've covertly supported.

I think you've hit the "denial" switch that people seem to have about "porn" -- the fact that anti-porn fanatics like to think the porn industry consists of 800 guys who rent a million videos a year each.  We're talking about a 10 billion dollar a year industry in the US alone [including that poor girl's dumb town].  If it's all so horrible and repugnant, where's all that money coming from?

David Moyle wrote:

So, insulting all Christians because you don't like a few... is that at all like assuming all Canadians are intolerant because you seem to be? Also, is it at all hypocrytical to demand tolerance of Homosexuality while being intolerant of people who are Christian just because you agree with one and not the other?

Do you believe Ghandi was insulting?

He saw people who called themselves Christians, but acted in no way like Christians. I see the same thing.

The false Christians I see, are so sure of themselves, so smug, so self rightious, there is simply no polite way to debate with them.

You have to get right down to the fundamentals, and that means saying you are not acting like a Christian.

I am an athesist. If you think that I am not acting like a true atheist, feel free to call me on it,

Dave Krueger wrote:
Holley Dorrough, a small town Alabama girl (MM 8932), is featured as the April centerfold in Playboy.  There may be one or two models on here who would characterize that as no small accomplishment.  Maybe even something to write home about.

But, according to a story in the Birmingham News, Holley's Southern Baptist parents cried for two months when Holley told them about it, her mother saying, "...she'll have to answer to the Lord for what she's done...".  Her father reportedly took it the hardest.

In letters to the local news paper, one high school librarian wrote that her students were disgusted and one of Holley's high school teachers wrote  asking Holley not to ever mention where she went to high school for fear of the shame it will bring to the school.  It goes on and on.

Here is the story

Sorry folks, but the attitude toward sex and nudity in this fucking country is so juvenile that it borders on insanity.  Add to that, a healthy dose of guilt dipped in fanatical religious hypocrisy (the South's most important export) and you have a shining example the kind of hate filled mind control so typical of all of "God's chosen people" everywhere on the planet.

I find it disturbing, in the extreme, that a girl should attain an enviable measure of celebrity and success only to be persecuted by the community where she grew up.  It makes me ashamed to be a part of this backward, zealot-dominated state.

*end of rant*

-Dave

I admire your tolerance of the divergent viwpoints of others.
Bob

Robert Helm wrote:
I admire your tolerance of the divergent viwpoints of others.
Bob

I would be much more tolerant of their viewpoint if they didn't keep trying to install an exact replica of that viewpoint in my bedroom.

David Moyle wrote:
It's just too bad you judge all Christians because of a relative few that happen to be more vocal than the less radical ones. Seems kind of like hating all Muslims for the same reason.

Pressure is being brought to bear on moderate Muslims to speak out against the fundie Muslims.

If I saw more moderate Christians speak out against the fundie Christians my opinions would change pretty quick.

But the US is becoming more fundie, not less.

Consider what recently happened in South Dakota.

Robert Helm wrote:
I admire your tolerance of the divergent viwpoints of others.
Bob

At least I don't tell them they will burn in hell for eternity just because they don't believe the same things I believe.

David Moyle wrote:

I've never been able to say that. Most Black people won't talk to me at all, they see a white male coming and cross the street.

Black people crossing the street because they see a white male coming... Interesting...

not something I have seen...be it in Michigan, Texas, Louisiana, Virginia or Alaska. All those places I have lived.

Stephen Dawson wrote:

Do you believe Ghandi was insulting?

He saw people who called themselves Christians, but acted in no way like Christians. I see the same thing.

The false Christians I see, are so sure of themselves, so smug, so self rightious, there is simply no polite way to debate with them.

You have to get right down to the fundamentals, and that means saying you are not acting like a Christian.

I am an athesist. If you think that I am not acting like a true atheist, feel free to call me on it,

You think debating false Christians in a way that is impolite to all Christians is going to win your case? The false Christians won't change their mind and you'll just insult the true Christians. I never understand that. The same people who say it's bad to do the exact same thing to Muslims (or Gays, or minorities) have no problem if it is Christians they are lumping together. Strange way of thinking.

Amanda Schlicher wrote:
BORING.  probably at least 50% of parents of centerfolds were upset about it.  Why is this getting press?

Parents get upset with their children everyday for myriad reasons, both stupid and justified. 
Who cares?

I do, because this is the 21st century and all my teachers back in the 70s and 80s promised me that we'd have flying cars and smarter people...And I haven't gotten my flying car yet either.

Angel Tara wrote:
Black people crossing the street because they see a white male coming... Interesting...

not something I have seen...be it in Michigan, Texas, Louisiana, Virginia or Alaska. All those places I have lived.

It was a joke. Melvin said "Some of my best friends are Chrisitans" and that he had always wanted to say that (you know, when white people say "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are Black people") So, I was just joking that Black people assume I'm a racist white male so they cross the street when they see me.

If you have to explain a joke, it bombed, so...so much for that.

Angel Tara wrote:

David Moyle wrote:
I've never been able to say that. Most Black people won't talk to me at all, they see a white male coming and cross the street.

Black people crossing the street because they see a white male coming... Interesting...

not something I have seen...be it in Michigan, Texas, Louisiana, Virginia or Alaska. All those places I have lived.

I thought he was making a joke.

Nerie wrote:
...(There are also water bongs,etc. for sale too.)...

Dude, you know you can fill 'em with beer too.  Better yet, skip the water and throw in a couple of Bible Belts -- that'll fix the mom's an' librarians of America up.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well Dave. . .
The choices you make are your own.  I'm sure Holley's hometown and family values didn't just magically mutate into what they are now overnight.  No doubt she's grown up with that her entire life.  I would like to think that she's a grown woman and can make her own decisions.  Unfortunately, all decsions have consequences.

My father is a minister.  His father is a Theologist.  My mother is actively involved in the church.  Get where I'm going with this??  Every decision I make has an impact on them.  It's called public scrutiny.  There are some things that I'm dead set against doing b/c I don't want them to be involved in the backlash.  But. . .if/when I decide to do something that is considered "taboo" for any of them it's a conversation that I would have with them. . .starting with "Hey, i'm going to do ___ and I know you're not going to approve, but I'm doing it anyway so here's your head's up."  But that's just me.

I'm sure she won't be disowned.  In time the whole town will get over it.  But until then. . .consequences.  This is something I'm pretty sure she knew would happen.

I definitely agree with you on this one! She definitely has her own reasons why she did it, and have probably thought about the 'consequences' her action entails. It is just life, some people will be like "hey, she just posed nude, what's the big deal?" and some people will despise her actions for as long as they can, and we are all entitled to that... It's funny because my dad actually thinks that modelling is just a waste of time, and he suggested that I'd do PORN instead because there's alot of money in that industry, but that's my father, an open-minded individual But in this girl's case, she was raised in a conservative family/town where every little step one makes has to be guided by the scriptures, and anyone that doesn't delineate from what everybody thinks is normal is condemned both by the public and God... It sucks to be her, for being in that position... /

David Moyle wrote:
It was a joke. Melvin said "Some of my best friends are Chrisitans" and that he had always wanted to say that (you know, when white people say "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are Black people") So, I was just joking that Black people assume I'm a racist white male so they cross the street when they see me.

If you have to explain a joke, it bombed, so...so much for that.

Ahhh, my fault for not reading the whole thread.

Joke didn't bomb...I'm the dufuss!


::takes the blame::

my sincerest apology

Dave Krueger wrote:

I thought he was making a joke.

Yes, I realize I should not have interjected...a bit too late.

sorry

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well Dave. . .
The choices you make are your own.  I'm sure Holley's hometown and family values didn't just magically mutate into what they are now overnight.  No doubt she's grown up with that her entire life.  I would like to think that she's a grown woman and can make her own decisions.  Unfortunately, all decsions have consequences

To paraphrase:

The choice$ you make are your own.  I'm $ure Holley'$ hometown and family value$ didn't ju$t magically mutate into what they are now overnight.  No doubt $he'$ grown up with that her entire life.  I would like to think that $he'$ a grown woman and can make her own deci$ion$.  Unfortunately, all dec$ion4 have con$equence$.

SmartAz Photography wrote:

Nerie wrote:
...(There are also water bongs,etc. for sale too.)...

Dude, you know you can fill 'em with beer too.  Better yet, skip the water and throw in a couple of Bible Belts -- that'll fix the mom's an' librarians of America up.

Nerie is a female dude. 

SmartAz Photography wrote:
God love the Christians (Cuz I just can't).  They all want grace, mercy and forgiveness, but none seem to be willing to stop being judgemental and dish it out.

I am boycotting Christians.  If heaven is going to be filled with them, it's going to suck for me, but I can no longer be a club member.  I was a Christian for a long time.  I raised my son in the church and sent him to other countries to spread the Gospel.  I've found that Christians are bad people.

While preparing for my son to go to Turkey on what would have been his second mission trip, a church member came to our house to speak with us.  She asked to see our son's room (she wanted to see if he really was a Christian).  Because of the rock 'n roll posters on the wall, he couldn't go spread the gospel.

I bought a new truck once.  After church, a Christian friend said, "I suppose you are going to show me you new red idol now."  He then got on my case for missing church the previous week.  Earlier this year, that same guy abandoned his pregnant wife and their son for a 50 year old woman with herpes.  Ugh.

I had a party for my wife.  A Christian friend slipped my wife and son GHB, a date rape drug.  My wife almost died.  The police did nothing.

So Radka, I'm sorry thaty your dad won't speak to you.  Things could have been worse.  When my son was turned down for the mission trip, he began to drink and do drugs.  He said that when the church turned its back on him, it was too much.  He later began using heroin.

The good news (no, not the gospel) is, my son is currently in a 12-step program and is clean and sober.  Thank goodness that none of his Christian friends tried to help.

I would be proud if I had a daughter that was pretty enough for Playboy.  It would be better to see her there, than deal with her being a junkie.

It is unfortunate that you have experienced these events in your life, I can't imagine the affect they have had on you...

I would ask that you take something into consideration, everyone who says they are Christian are not, there are those who are truely Christians (you can tell by their actions and their relationship with God) and then their are counterfiet Christians (people who say they are Christians, but they don't act like it).  Those people you mentioned don't sound like they were the real deal, and I am sorry your experience was so terrible, just know that you being a Christian has nothing to do with other "Christians" it has only to do with your relationship with God and how you live your life.  If your son was turned away by those at the church you attended, then it sounds like you were at the wrong church.  You don't go back to a store that gives you poor service, you find one that can accomodate your needs...Church families are no different.  Don't throw all Christians out the window because a few misrepresented themselves, just be more careful of who you take at their word....

SmartAz Photography wrote:
To paraphrase:

The choice$ you make are your own.  I'm $ure Holley'$ hometown and family value$ didn't ju$t magically mutate into what they are now overnight.  No doubt $he'$ grown up with that her entire life.  I would like to think that $he'$ a grown woman and can make her own deci$ion$.  Unfortunately, all dec$ion4 have con$equence$.

So what's your point?  LOL!

Dave Krueger wrote:

Nerie is a female dude. 

Dude, I know.  In the vernacular of the times, chicks are often called dude.

Dude, my son, when he was growing up would often call his mother dude (and get reprimanded).

I go to school full time and it's not uncommom for a student to call the female professor, "Dude."

There are lots o' female dudes, dude.

SmartAz Photography wrote:
Dude, I know.  In the vernacular of the times, chicks are often called dude.

Dude, my son, when he was growing up would often call his mother dude (and get reprimanded).

I go to school full time and it's not uncommom for a student to call the female professor, "Dude."

There are lots o' female dudes, dude.

This dude stands corrected.

Dave Krueger wrote:
Holley Dorrough, a small town Alabama girl (MM 8932), is featured as the April centerfold in Playboy.  There may be one or two models on here who would characterize that as no small accomplishment.  Maybe even something to write home about.

But, according to a story in the Birmingham News, Holley's Southern Baptist parents cried for two months when Holley told them about it, her mother saying, "...she'll have to answer to the Lord for what she's done...".  Her father reportedly took it the hardest.

In letters to the local news paper, one high school librarian wrote that her students were disgusted and one of Holley's high school teachers wrote  asking Holley not to ever mention where she went to high school for fear of the shame it will bring to the school.  It goes on and on.

Here is the story

Sorry folks, but the attitude toward sex and nudity in this fucking country is so juvenile that it borders on insanity.  Add to that, a healthy dose of guilt dipped in fanatical religious hypocrisy (the South's most important export) and you have a shining example the kind of hate filled mind control so typical of all of "God's chosen people" everywhere on the planet.

I find it disturbing, in the extreme, that a girl should attain an enviable measure of celebrity and success only to be persecuted by the community where she grew up.  It makes me ashamed to be a part of this backward, zealot-dominated state.

*end of rant*

-Dave

Seems to me like God would smile on his creation and say it was good.  Sad state of affairs for what David just stated so well and how we've jet this concept of we call religion dictate hurt or otherwise damage a up-and-coming stare. Sad.  /tim

Talitha Williams wrote:
Don't throw all Christians out the window because a few misrepresented themselves, just be more careful of who you take at their word....

Sorry, but we're talking about more than "a few."  The fact that so many different people from different places have issue with "Christians" on this thread alone should tell you something.  I have no doubt that your personal faith is a wonderful thing, but there are a lot of people out there doing divisive and hurtful things "in the name of God."  Call me an alarmist, but we have an American Taliban in the making and exposing them is more your responsibility than it is mine -- after all, it's you're good name they've appropriated.

photographybyfrank wrote:
Every one ,i do not think the big problem is the nudity, its how it is done, and we all know the difference between smut, and non smust , playboy is fancy smut, the female form is a beautyfull thing.
But when you start spreading the legs opening the croch, bending over so you can look at both holes at the same times ,thats , smut, porn , gross, not very attractive.And in bad taste unless your looking to get laid.

And yet another post (as seems to always come up in these threads) from someone describing the "smut" im Playboy who's clearly never looked at one to see what's in it.
You're describing Hustler & Penthouse, not Playboy.

Ched wrote:
What does God want with a stroke mag?

Ched, just want you to know I got the reference.

AJ Bella wrote:
I am not surprised at her parents reaction. Religion plays a big part in people's life. If and when I ever tell my parents I am a model I'll probably be disowned

The close connection between sex and morality is not something that has to be.  Religion should get out of the sex business and focus on getting people to treat each other with consideration.

David Moyle wrote:
So, insulting all Christians because you don't like a few... is that at all like assuming all Canadians are intolerant because you seem to be? Also, is it at all hypocrytical to demand tolerance of Homosexuality while being intolerant of people who are Christian just because you agree with one and not the other?

99% of people who claim to be Christians are actually Paulists who follow a pastische of the Old testament and the crazed "Gospels" written after the crucifixion.  Most of them know nothing of the Bible & don't recognize Christ's words when I quote them.
The faith structure known as Christianity is fundamentally flawed, ugly, and intolerant.
Would you criticize people who're intolerant og the KKK?
Christianity is about hate in much the same fashion, hate for anything "other" or different.
It's PERFECTLY ok to be intolerant OF intolerance.

SLE Photography wrote:
And yet another post (as seems to always come up in these threads) from someone describing the "smut" im Playboy who's clearly never looked at one to see what's in it.
You're describing Hustler & Penthouse, not Playboy.

Yea, and you are all guys who think that this is an ok magazine.     And yes, I have seen the magazine.     It degrades women in my opinion.   Women that pose all do it to relaunch their career  or image (tiffany and debbie gibson) , get back at society or their parents (ronald regan's daughter and the young girl stated in this original post) or use it for a marketing tool to draw attention to themselves (carnie wilson after surgery).   Then there are other that do it for quick buck because their 15 min. of fame is over (adrienne curry)  or need the money because parents cut them off (big 10 college issue).    I have personally known a girl who has posed in her early 20s and who at the time thought it was the best thing for her, and now regrets it.

The most successful selling covers/spreads (no pun intended) was Pam Anderson and she and other girls who want to pose for it or have posed and still need further fame feel it is neccessary to remold their bodies into dysmorphic silicone and other plastic surgery.    Pornography is a sad thing for society.

There are all these talks about nudity vs. pornography and then brining in God into these threads to offend each other.     The truth of  the matter is I can name several models and actresses who make the wise choice to avoid nudity at any level and remain highly successful.

luv2bfitt wrote:
I believe that some people of the christian faith need to remember that god has already forgiven them (and others) for their "sins"
   So personally, I think God's answer will be, "No Problem..."

I'm no pro on the bible...but I do rather believe that in Genesis, God put everyone to run around in the nude. It was man, after sinning, who became embarrassed to be seen nude under the eyes of God in a pitiful attempt to try and hide the fact of his sin under a cloak of clothing. Didin't work as I recall...God saw the sin even through the clothing. The naked body is not inherently sinful, but rather possibly one of the most beautiful of God's creations.

Want bible-thumping? I have been to southern baptist churchs where people 'caught the spirit" and tore all their clothes off right there n church and wriggling around frothing at the mouth in praise and glory of the Lord.

SLE Photography wrote:
And yet another post (as seems to always come up in these threads) from someone describing the "smut" im Playboy who's clearly never looked at one to see what's in it.
You're describing Hustler & Penthouse, not Playboy.

iceblueeyedgirl wrote:
Yea, and you are all guys who think that this is an ok magazine.     And yes, I have seen the magazine.     It degrades women in my opinion.   Women that pose all do it to relaunch their career  or image (tiffany and debbie gibson) , get back at society or their parents (ronald regan's daughter and the young girl stated in this original post) or use it for a marketing tool to draw attention to themselves (carnie wilson after surgery).   Then there are other that do it for quick buck because their 15 min. of fame is over (adrienne curry)  or need the money because parents cut them off (big 10 college issue).    I have personally known a girl who has posed in her early 20s and who at the time thought it was the best thing for her, and now regrets it.

The most successful selling covers/spreads (no pun intended) was Pam Anderson and she and other girls who want to pose for it or have posed and still need further fame feel it is neccessary to remold their bodies into dysmorphic silicone and other plastic surgery.    Pornography is a sad thing for society.

There are all these talks about nudity vs. pornography and then brining in God into these threads to offend each other.     The truth of  the matter is I can name several models and actresses who make the wise choice to avoid nudity at any level and remain highly successful.

Nice diatribe, but I didn't say it was OK, I simply pointed out that the person I was replying to that he was characterizing the magazine incorrectly & perhaps he should know what he was saying before he spoke about it.
As for the "wise choice to avoid nudity" and "degrading women" comments, it sounds like you're one of those people who're so immersed in gender feminism that anhy portrayl of a women's sexuality probably comes across as exploitative to you.
That is your opinion, as you said, and you're entitiled to it.  By all means, share it with others but don't try to forcibly impose it on them 

iceblueeyedgirl wrote:

Yea, and you are all guys who think that this is an ok magazine.     And yes, I have seen the magazine.     It degrades women in my opinion.   Women that pose all do it to relaunch their career  or image (tiffany and debbie gibson) , get back at society or their parents (ronald regan's daughter and the young girl stated in this original post) or use it for a marketing tool to draw attention to themselves (carnie wilson after surgery).   Then there are other that do it for quick buck because their 15 min. of fame is over (adrienne curry)  or need the money because parents cut them off (big 10 college issue).    I have personally known a girl who has posed in her early 20s and who at the time thought it was the best thing for her, and now regrets it.

The most successful selling covers/spreads (no pun intended) was Pam Anderson and she and other girls who want to pose for it or have posed and still need further fame feel it is neccessary to remold their bodies into dysmorphic silicone and other plastic surgery.    Pornography is a sad thing for society.

There are all these talks about nudity vs. pornography and then brining in God into these threads to offend each other.     The truth of  the matter is I can name several models and actresses who make the wise choice to avoid nudity at any level and remain highly successful.

Actually, we've had several posts from women who seem to think Playboy is just fine and dandy.  We had past threads where playboy models have waxed poetic about what a wonderful experience it was for them.  To simply write off choices these [adult] women make as invalid simply because they aren't the choice you might make is the sort of narrow thinking that's hamstrung American Feminism since the late 60s:  Like it or not, all women are different.  In your own way you degrade these women further by belittling their choices.  What's up with that?

Personally, I find Playboy rather boring and rote [I like my porn a little darker and less airbrushed].  But if women want to pose for the magazine, more power to them.  It's their choice and I respect their right to make that choice.  Whether you are able to respect that choice obviously isn't very important to them.