Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38381
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Only read the first post on this one... (ok *definitely* lazy now haha) It irks me as well, I understand it, everyone likes to get paid, models want money, photographers want money, everyone thinks they are the ones deserving of pay, etc etc blah blah. Personally, I'm doing it for the art, and only want to work with those who have the same opinion, making art together... and making art together should not include exchanges of money (besides for obvious costs/expenses) Oh well, live, learn, shoot, move on. 
Photographer
Jon Barry
Posts: 200
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US
StaciF wrote:
And I am tired of photographers contacting me saying you need better picture in your portfolio- Here are my fees-
It is a two way street people- So quit complaining and start shooting- and you can't fault a model or a photographer for marketing themselves. If you think their is value pay it- If you don't move on- It isn't rocket science That might be, but I know where I used to get paid for portfolio work, it has been two years since any model from either this site or OMP has paid me. Doing portfolios used to be 1/3 of my income. It is zero today. I do know that alot of photogs are paying models. I know of none getting paid from any of this. It has become a place where the models get free work. It has also become a place where we make an appointment, free or not and the chance of a model actually showing up is less than 50% and for her to show up on time is about 20%. When they paid they actually showed up on time and prepared.
Photographer
Jon Barry
Posts: 200
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US
DigitalCMH wrote:
This is actually a very good point. I believe the problem that model has is marketing. If she wishes to contact photographers and quote rates, she needs to explain WHY she'd be worth it. Such as, "Having me in your portfolio could potentially land you future PAID work as I am very well-known in the industry and clients love to hire photographers that have worked with me. I also have a lot of models asking me for photographer referrals as well which could lead you to shoots with models that pay YOU."
I have paid a model before. She's well-known in her industry. It attracted more attention to my portfolio. Several girls told me that the reason they were interested in shooting with me was because of her.
Photographer
Jon Barry
Posts: 200
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US
DigitalCMH wrote:
This is actually a very good point. I believe the problem that model has is marketing. If she wishes to contact photographers and quote rates, she needs to explain WHY she'd be worth it. Such as, "Having me in your portfolio could potentially land you future PAID work as I am very well-known in the industry and clients love to hire photographers that have worked with me. I also have a lot of models asking me for photographer referrals as well which could lead you to shoots with models that pay YOU."
I have paid a model before. She's well-known in her industry. It attracted more attention to my portfolio. Several girls told me that the reason they were interested in shooting with me was because of her. But did any of those girls ever offer to pay you. Shooting someone and getting paid are so totally different.
My only complaint about any of this is no matter what deal you make with a model, pay or not, you still stand a good chance of having no shoot at all after you have made your booking. Do many photographers stand the models up?
Photographer
Rayzor and Penny Team
Posts: 158
Lansdale, Pennsylvania, US
00siris wrote:
TRUE - this is the other side of the question - If a photographer contacts a model saying that he/she wants to get a model better pix, then he/she should be ready for TFP/CD - It's not right to feed off these start up models like that. If a photog wants to get work and it's a question of marketing, he/she should be prepared to do some work as well.
Not a bad point Staci - sorry I didn't mention it
Photographer
Rayzor and Penny Team
Posts: 158
Lansdale, Pennsylvania, US
00siris wrote:
TRUE - this is the other side of the question - If a photographer contacts a model saying that he/she wants to get a model better pix, then he/she should be ready for TFP/CD - It's not right to feed off these start up models like that. If a photog wants to get work and it's a question of marketing, he/she should be prepared to do some work as well.
Not a bad point Staci - sorry I didn't mention it
Photographer
Rayzor and Penny Team
Posts: 158
Lansdale, Pennsylvania, US
OK,so I suppose that if photographers are REALLY looking to HELP models(and get paid for helping them)because we DO have experience with the industry,then we should NOT contact them?
Believe it our NOT,it doesn't matter how good you are as a model,the name of the game is ALWAYS do better and get stronger.
Shooting 100 TFP's does not make you professional and deserve pay. TFP's are exactly that "TESTS".
I suggest a few more models here actually LOOK at the magazines and see if their pics represent what the INDUSTRY wants.
If you are a "pin-up" wannabe,then get the pin-up stuff,but if you want to be a FASHION model,you better have fashion stuff if you want to get paid.
Otherwise,there are a few photographers here that can REALLY HELP you get better pics and you should be careful,but PAY to get them.
Goodluck if you close the door TOO early because you think you are good enoughand you are not getting REAL modeling jobs.
Photographer
bubbaclicks
Posts: 2271
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
why is this so difficult for both the models and photogs to grasp?
there is a give and take here, we BOTH need each other to produce our craft...
if you encounter a photographer who is looking to get paid for a test, and you don't want to pay or can't afford it, move on to one who will work with you, there are so many photographers here. Same goes for a model that is looking to get paid...i see so many models on here that will test for a CD. Respect each other and help each other, why is that so hard?
Photographer
LongWindFPV Visuals
Posts: 7052
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I love to help Models!
That is, real Models who will be using the images we create to get into bonafide agencies, casting calls, newspaper billings, an editorial spot in some rag with some circulation, t.v. shows and movie parts. Things of that nature.
NOT...free pictures for their myspace profiles.
NOT...free pictures for luring suitors and tricks.
NOT...free pictures that will be used as paid-for content on their pay site.
If I do TFP/CD with someone I think has a good potential to go somewhere with her looks, I only have one thing in mind, to have her include my pics in the book she shows to real clients who may potentially be my clients.
Photographer
00siris
Posts: 19182
New York, New York, US
Don't get me wrong - I still do TFCD and I love it! In fact, I owe a lot to models who has agreed to do TFP with me. Without them them I'd be nothing (not that I'm some big-to-do now - lol). It's just this apparent sense of entitlement that drives me up the wall
Model
shellyradley
Posts: 1201
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
00siris wrote:
Attention models:::::
Let me start by saying this: If you don't like a photographers work, then just move on.
There's a model who left me the following quote:
"I love your work - contact me for my rates" - WHAT !?!
Charging a photog is an insult unless he/she has a project or is trying to better himself/herself at a particular set. If you want to get paid, by all means do so. But, you have to go on castings or get an agent - it's as simple as that. You have to be willing to go out there and do a little work.
Read about or ask any successful model and find out that being pretty is just a small piece to the modeling puzzle.
Please try and find out what TFP/CD REALLY means - please - Enough is enough already. ummmm
i do agree with you but don't generalize so much please...
there are photographers who insult the shite out of me when they say they want lingerie and nude for free as they think it would help their profile.
it's not that they are insulting my body but my intelligence...
I could generalize too and say all of you guys stop it but i don't as it is onloy a select few.
sorry but i had to say something and i don't normally pipe up that much lol
xx shelly xx
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
This turned out to be a popular thread.
Model
Sno E Blac
Posts: 40
Los Angeles, California, US
lol. Funny how people are in this industry. Alan, you know my negative experience with a photographer (which everyone can read about in my profile btw). Too bad this model thinks if they contact you that you should pay them to shoot their pictures. SOOO backwards! Although, I can't blame a model for trying!  )
Model
Vera van Munster
Posts: 4095
Belmont, North Carolina, US
Definately a two way street. I get so many amateurs giving me this whole spill about how they are an artist, how they can help my portfolio,etc. but they have work worst than what I saw in my first year of art school.I charge those idiots.
I understand someone saying, "see me about my rates". It does cost us money to drive somewhere wether we have an agent or not.Plus, unless you provide hair,makeup,wardrobe,props,etc. It comes out of our wallet as well.Unless your work is THAT good to them, they're going to pull out that "rate card".
Photographer
00siris
Posts: 19182
New York, New York, US
shelly1982 wrote:
ummmm
i do agree with you but don't generalize so much please...
there are photographers who insult the shite out of me when they say they want lingerie and nude for free as they think it would help their profile.
it's not that they are insulting my body but my intelligence...
I could generalize too and say all of you guys stop it but i don't as it is onloy a select few.
sorry but i had to say something and i don't normally pipe up that much lol
xx shelly xx Indeed
Photographer
00Philip00
Posts: 184
Vass, North Carolina, US
00siris wrote:
Attention models:::::
Let me start by saying this: If you don't like a photographers work, then just move on.
There's a model who left me the following quote:
"I love your work - contact me for my rates" - WHAT !?!
Charging a photog is an insult unless he/she has a project or is trying to better himself/herself at a particular set. If you want to get paid, by all means do so. But, you have to go on castings or get an agent - it's as simple as that. You have to be willing to go out there and do a little work.
Read about or ask any successful model and find out that being pretty is just a small piece to the modeling puzzle.
Please try and find out what TFP/CD REALLY means - please - Enough is enough already. Amen dude (claps`and jumps up and down)
The GWC's are gonna take over LOL
Photographer
Royal Photography
Posts: 2011
Birmingham, Alabama, US
Models think that if they play dress up or show up naked it justifies their getting paid for it by photographers who are typically shooting for their portfolio. I have taken pretty girls next door, at the coffee shop or at the local colleges and done far more with them in images than with any model I paid......so guess what...i dont pay models for any shoot...UNLESS...I have a client who is paying me AND the model for a commercial job. In such a case as that, the client determines the pay rate according to thier budget...not me and not the model...the client. Welcome to the real world. If someone wants me to shoot for them.....they pay...clients, models, moms, etc. That is not mean. That is called running a business which I have been doing for over 20 years and are doing more work now than ever. When a model emails me telling me how much she likes my work...and says she would love to work with me...then when I agree she comes back with her rates I simply discontinue my interest in that "model" because she is showing her lack of experience as a true commercial/professional model by seeking to operate in ways the industry doesnt support as professional. And dats all I got to say about that 00siris wrote:
Attention models:::::
Let me start by saying this: If you don't like a photographers work, then just move on.
There's a model who left me the following quote:
"I love your work - contact me for my rates" - WHAT !?!
Charging a photog is an insult unless he/she has a project or is trying to better himself/herself at a particular set. If you want to get paid, by all means do so. But, you have to go on castings or get an agent - it's as simple as that. You have to be willing to go out there and do a little work.
Read about or ask any successful model and find out that being pretty is just a small piece to the modeling puzzle.
Please try and find out what TFP/CD REALLY means - please - Enough is enough already.
Photographer
megafunk
Posts: 2594
Los Angeles, California, US
Model
_Cinnamon_
Posts: 1697
San Francisco, California, US
megafunk wrote:
Woohaw! You are nuts, man. Why would you bring this thread back??
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
my deal is this ... i used to get proofs ... i loved my proof sheets with an eye loupe you could see them all and see which ones were good poses bad poses etc...
this applys ofr tfcd/tfp
Some photographers only give me one or two finished images ... no raw files ...I dont complain.
Some photographers give me all raw images and finished ones ...i like this, and a mutual agreement to not use unfinished or unauthorized images is set by both of us....( as in pink showing up in a fine art nude etc.)
I would like to be able to see and examine my work ....like i said i am not really complaining , but it is a nice thing to do , and is like having proof sheets. in some cases where one really hard pose is worked on for an hour or two, yes this is not neccessary.
To the photographers that give raw files , prints and finished image files ... muahhh , love it ! Thanks.
Photographer
john hill
Posts: 361
Louisville, Kentucky, US
00siris wrote:
Attention models:::::
Let me start by saying this: If you don't like a photographers work, then just move on.
There's a model who left me the following quote:
"I love your work - contact me for my rates" - WHAT !?!
Charging a photog is an insult unless he/she has a project or is trying to better himself/herself at a particular set. If you want to get paid, by all means do so. But, you have to go on castings or get an agent - it's as simple as that. You have to be willing to go out there and do a little work.
ABSOLUTLY IN TOTAL AGREEMENT !!!!!!!! I"ve been around this biz since the 80's as a model,photographer and video producer.Models have always expected to pay for portfolio photography and know that when a photog test them for prints he is doing them a favor and providing with valuble service out of his pocket.Not until recently when I started web-marketing did I get this attitude from models expecting to get FREE shots.90 per cent of the models on the web-sites I would not hire for anything except soft porn or swimwear.I love the bedroom snapshots!! That is not a model portfolio!!!! I do hire models for advertising but most of the ports on this site would not fly in the real commercial world.Boys and girls cough it up.I don't go to the GAP and expect a free paor of jeans.They'd tell me what I'm telling you - come back when you have the money!!! jh
Photographer
CREATIVE EYE MEDIA
Posts: 34
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
It seems like Models and photographers argue alot about who should pay who, and when.
If we spent as much time working together, as we do arguing, just maybe we could all be successful at what we long to do for a living.
Photographer
john hill
Posts: 361
Louisville, Kentucky, US
Professional work means money is involved - Hobby means for the fun of it!!! jh
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
john hill wrote:
Professional work means money is involved - Hobby means for the fun of it!!! jh Ok .. I agree but i have worked with some pros that sell the images and they gave me prrofs / or raw files , so what is the deal?
Is it that much of a strain to have images of all raw work on a disc ?
I suppose myspace may have wrecked this ....or one or two models who alter or sell images with out consent...
Sometimes I dont even get a disc , just a file or two to my inbox.
No signed print. I used to get signed prints.
Not unlike a proof sheet , if it is tfp/tfcd...what gives ?
I shoot 3 hours of crazy poses for a few images and the photgrapher can keep all of them in his files , but i cannot?
I get one file or two? this does not happen always and I am not MAD when it does....
just curious...
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
Photographer
CREATIVE EYE MEDIA
Posts: 34
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I think the problem is that some of us (photographers and models) are professional, and others are working to be professional.
I just think we should quite aguing, because it is a waste of time and energy.
Neither parties win, and become resentful towards each other.
I know we all get frusterated, having talent/beauty, and not getting anywhere. I would be lying if I did not say I have felt that way many times, but I have come up with a way where we all win. It is called comprimising, and co-operation!!!
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
should i start a new thread for this???
Model
Vera van Munster
Posts: 4095
Belmont, North Carolina, US
She shouldnt have said she loved your work and tell you to ask for her rates.If you approached her,then she could pull out the whole rate card.Most of the times though photographers think their work is so good they should get paid when really they lack so much they could stand to fork out the dough to have some good material.It goes both ways though 
Model
MelissaLynnette LaDiva
Posts: 50816
Leawood, Kansas, US
john hill wrote:
Professional work means money is involved - Hobby means for the fun of it!!! jh Yes, but why does it have to be my money?
Photographer
Visions Of Paradise
Posts: 379
Honolulu, Hawaii, US
Aloha free pics now who here is that stupid.....? Not i said the wise man but ok TFCD is all good if everyone knows what they are getting out of the shoot and models well remember this you get what you pay for, if a monkey shoots you then you will have crapy images if a pro shoots you well you get the picture so stop on the pay me crap no one wants to work for free true this but for models Companies pay you for your time not a photographer, I mean why should we pay you make you look like the little goddess you want to be seen as for what so you can make cash off of our work, What did we get out of it a SLAP in the face, thanks for the pics IDIOT is what you are thinking and not all up and comming models are like that but there are allot of them out there. What i am saying is for a model pay the photographer so that you can do what ever when ever you want with the image otherwise you have images that you can't even put into your port and that dose you no good or trade services if you cannot afford to pay but i agree do not ask to get paid it is an insult to photographers, And if you do get paid no images for you the person who paid you owns them now 100% so remember that as well Mahalo........
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
I hope that doesn't apply to me as i have stated that my question was for tfp tfcd only... not for paid ... that is an entirely different subject.
Photographer
Stephen Melvin
Posts: 16334
Kansas City, Missouri, US
CareLyn Anita wrote:
my deal is this ... i used to get proofs ... i loved my proof sheets with an eye loupe you could see them all and see which ones were good poses bad poses etc...
this applys ofr tfcd/tfp
Some photographers only give me one or two finished images ... no raw files ...I dont complain.
Some photographers give me all raw images and finished ones ...i like this, and a mutual agreement to not use unfinished or unauthorized images is set by both of us....( as in pink showing up in a fine art nude etc.)
I would like to be able to see and examine my work ....like i said i am not really complaining , but it is a nice thing to do , and is like having proof sheets. in some cases where one really hard pose is worked on for an hour or two, yes this is not neccessary.
To the photographers that give raw files , prints and finished image files ... muahhh , love it ! Thanks. I think you'll like me.
The way I look at it, sometimes (oftentimes, really) the model and I will have different favorites. I may have one that I really love for its artistic value, but the model may prefer another where she looks really good. I generally only edit the ones where I've goofed (OOF, hideous exposure, etc.)
Model
Mz Machina
Posts: 1754
Chicago, Illinois, US
Stephen Melvin wrote:
I think you'll like me.
The way I look at it, sometimes (oftentimes, really) the model and I will have different favorites. I may have one that I really love for its artistic value, but the model may prefer another where she looks really good. I generally only edit the ones where I've goofed (OOF, hideous exposure, etc.) I like you anyhoo, and Jess too:)
Model
Caroline Ann Martin
Posts: 1736
Williamsport, Pennsylvania, US
Stephen Melvin wrote:
I think you'll like me.
The way I look at it, sometimes (oftentimes, really) the model and I will have different favorites. I may have one that I really love for its artistic value, but the model may prefer another where she looks really good. I generally only edit the ones where I've goofed (OOF, hideous exposure, etc.) Just wanted to add a thanks to the photographers who give models the raw images as well! I always ask what the photographer is ok with - if I can edit them myself and add his/her copyright to the photo, etc.. So far it's worked out wonderful for the photogs who've let me do this.
Caroline
Photographer
Miles Chandler
Posts: 647
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
CareLyn Anita wrote:
Ok .. I agree but i have worked with some pros that sell the images and they gave me proofs / or raw files , so what is the deal?
Is it that much of a strain to have images of all raw work on a disc ?
I suppose myspace may have wrecked this ....or one or two models who alter or sell images with out consent...
Sometimes I dont even get a disc , just a file or two to my inbox.
No signed print. I used to get signed prints.
Not unlike a proof sheet , if it is tfp/tfcd...what gives ?
I shoot 3 hours of crazy poses for a few images and the photgrapher can keep all of them in his files , but i cannot?
I get one file or two? this does not happen always and I am not MAD when it does....
just curious... Personal preference.. for one thing, now that many of us are shooting digital, we shoot exponentially more, and might be less careful about each frame. I've shot 1000 pictures of someone in one afternoon, and there's no point to the model even seeing, let alone having the worst half of that. I tend to send a few (10-30) edited pics along within a day or two (what seems like a sampling of the best when I do a run-through) and then edit the rest when I have a chance- which might be weeks or months. Eventually they'll get a complete edited set, no raw files, with every shot I felt should be kept, looking the way I'm comfortable with it.
It's a matter of creative control. I have no way of knowing what a model will do with raw images, how they will edit them, etc., and most beginner photoshop work is pretty bad, so it's no wonder it makes a photographer nervous to hand over unedited shots. If they don't mind, or know you well enough to trust your editing skill and taste that's great, but it's a personal choice. I don't trust anyone that much!
A model works hard for 3 hours, but the photographer has to do the *OTHER* 25 hours of work to get the results they envisioned. Between that, and the fact that I don't want anybody, especially the model, seeing all the pics where she blinked, moved, looked bad in whatever way, or I didn't focus, frame, or expose correctly, I do feel protective of raw images. The lack of prints is also probably part of the digital age problem. No more darkrooms, so unless you have a professional level printer in your house (I don't, some do), giving a print means a special trip or two to a local photo finisher, as well as money spent on something the model may not like or want. I always let the model tell me what she'd like a print of, if that's part of our deal.
Good grief, I write too much when I get started:-)
Photographer
Hope Parr
Posts: 726
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
then do it and quit crying about it...add some lawns, some flowers and you will be well rounded. Chuck Holliday wrote:
like photographers cant replace them with animals and wildlife
Photographer
Hope Parr
Posts: 726
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
Just for the record, I hire models, I pay between $100 an hour and up to $1500 for a 4 hour shoot. I do not care where you live, I can also provide air and hotel (4 star hotel). But I am very picky, I dont shoot just anyone, you have to fit what I am looking for. So feel free to contact me models.
Photographer
00siris
Posts: 19182
New York, New York, US
funny how my thoughts have been modified in just a year's time
Model
Molly Cf
Posts: 83
Usa, Ōita, Japan
StaciF wrote:
And I am tired of photographers contacting me saying you need better picture in your portfolio- Here are my fees-
It is a two way street people- So quit complaining and start shooting- and you can't fault a model or a photographer for marketing themselves. If you think their is value pay it- If you don't move on- It isn't rocket science i think she may be on to something...
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