the lonely photographer wrote:
I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way.  verbal instructions didnt really work.  finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose..  she got mad...

Dude... did you ask for permission to touch her? If not, you were wrong and her reaction was 100% justified.

Skydancer Photos wrote:

Dude... did you ask for permission to touch her? If not, you were wrong and her reaction was 100% justified.

Dude...you weren't there.  You know nothing about the shoot except what was briefly shared in the short synopsis about it.  Stop judging people when you have very little information.  A lot goes on at fashion and other events like them that is different than what commonly occurs at a one on one model shoot.  What is normal at one may not be considered as proper at the other.  The people involved are vastly different in their attitudes and expectations.

Skydancer Photos wrote:
Dude... did you ask for permission to touch her? If not, you were wrong and her reaction was 100% justified.

Dude...you weren't there.  You know nothing about the shoot except what was briefly shared in the short synopsis about it.  Stop judging people when you have very little information.  A lot goes on at fashion and other events like them that is different than what commonly occurs at a one on one model shoot.  What is normal at one may not be considered as proper at the other.  The people involved are vastly different in their attitudes and expectations.

Skydancer Photos wrote:

Dude... did you ask for permission to touch her? If not, you were wrong and her reaction was 100% justified.

indeed

Skydancer Photos wrote:
Dude... did you ask for permission to touch her? If not, you were wrong and her reaction was 100% justified.

Exactly! One of the most common complaints we receive from models is about photographers touching them without consent. It's really not that hard or time consuming to ask for permission.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:

Exactly! One of the most common complaints we receive from models is about photographers touching them without consent. It's really not that hard or time consuming to ask for permission.

So is MM doing anything about these reports?

I mean for the sake of the Models and those Photographers who choose to treat Models with respect

Garry k wrote:

So is MM doing anything about these reports?

It's a she said/he said, not much they can do.

PHP-Photography wrote:

It's a she said/he said, not much they can do.

personally I think that when there are multiple complaints from Models about a photographer - the photographer could be removed

let's make this place about the Models again 🙂

Mina Salome wrote:
Cool, bro, I was totally looking for your critique on whether or not my images are sexy.  That is both helpful and relevant to the conversation.  Well done!

Your point was that experienced models know how to give a “sultry look” and photographers don’t need to provide a scenario for them to achieve this.

The first part, I don’t agree with.  The second part, I do.

Then you use your own work as an example. 

How is a response to that part irrelevant?

Garry k wrote:

personally I think that when there are multiple complaints from Models about a photographer - the photographer could be removed

Removing someone does not solve anything, they just make new profile. Maybe the profile could be locked with some explanation why it's locked.

Garry k wrote:
let's make this place about the Models again 🙂

Agreed.

Rik Williams wrote:
And besides ...sometimes I require the model to get a little pissed, but only just a little

Edit: and no that doesn't involve touching without permission.

You tell her to "chins up just a little"  ?

PHP-Photography wrote:

You tell her to "chins up just a little"  ?

Don't think I've ever used that one before

Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.

Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots.  In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.

There's inherently nothing wrong with that request. I'd probably rephrase it as "look at the camera like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce the camera".

As for the adjusting thing. Yes, ask permission, if it is absolutely necessary. BUT in REAL fashion shooting, there is a crew there that practically manhandle personhandle the model. That's the REAL business.

Vito wrote:
There's inherently nothing wrong with that request. I'd probably rephrase it as "look at the camera like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce the camera".

As for the adjusting thing. Yes, ask permission, if it is absolutely necessary. BUT in REAL fashion shooting, there is a crew there that practically manhandle personhandle the model. That's the REAL business.

Saddens me that even the people who work for MM think this way ......

Models feelings are dismissed


And Fashion Stylists and Dressers who assist the Model with Garment and Accessory presentation are viewed as manhandling the model


Seriously?


I would say more in response to your post -but that would likely get me brigged

Vito wrote:

There's inherently nothing wrong with that request. I'd probably rephrase it as "look at the camera like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce the camera".

As for the adjusting thing. Yes, ask permission, if it is absolutely necessary. BUT in REAL fashion shooting, there is a crew there that practically manhandle personhandle the model. That's the REAL business.

Still no. You dont know how I look at my boyfriend (or if I even have a boyfriend, if I even like men, if I'm allosexual, etc) and even if we're assuming I have a boyfriend to give sexy looks to, you dont know what he finds "sexy", it might not be the same look you're trying to get, so just stop trying to make the work be about peoples personal sex lives.

Just say youre going for a sexy/sultry/seductive look. Use intelligent words that accurately explain your purpose, for all genres.

Todd Meredith wrote:

Dude...you weren't there.  You know nothing about the shoot except what was briefly shared in the short synopsis about it.  Stop judging people when you have very little information.  A lot goes on at fashion and other events like them that is different than what commonly occurs at a one on one model shoot.  What is normal at one may not be considered as proper at the other.  The people involved are vastly different in their attitudes and expectations.

Who gives a shit if the "fashion world" seemingly operates differently than one-on-one shoots? Just because non-consensual touching is "standard" doesnt make it right. There are all sorts of abuses that are "standard" across multiple industries, they're not *right*

Regardless, Skydancer's *only* comment was that someone's upset at being grabbed was justified. The person he was replying to straight up said the model got mad. What other info is needed? If someone was upset that they were touched thats a feeling they are actually allowed to have, there's no debate based on further info to be had there.

Laura UnBound wrote:

Who gives a shit if the "fashion world" seemingly operates differently than one-on-one shoots? Just because non-consensual touching is "standard" doesnt make it right. There are all sorts of abuses that are "standard" across multiple industries, they're not *right*

Regardless, Skydancer's *only* comment was that someone's upset at being grabbed was justified. The person he was replying to straight up said the model got mad. What other info is needed? If someone was upset that they were touched thats a feeling they are actually allowed to have, there's no debate based on further info to be had there.

and further... Models in the Fashion World are standing up for their rights -and being heard.  Photographers are being named, criticized and some even blacklisted

WIP wrote:
Don't touch models as you don't know where they've been [snip].

pretty much this.


I always warn the Model beforehand that I am going to approach them. Working with mostly new talent it's challenging to direct to a pose I feel looks good, which I do verbally and by example.  Once in a certain pose at times the hair isn't quite right  (We've all been there) and not having the luxury of a team on set My command is 'hold that, I'm going to approach' and I'll adjust the hair from one shoulder or whatever, not daring to have them do it themselves after spending 10 minutes getting them into position. 

On location I'm constantly metering light also so they're accustomed to having Me hovering around.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Who gives a shit if the "fashion world" seemingly operates differently than one-on-one shoots? Just because non-consensual touching is "standard" doesnt make it right.

I have two observations to make about this point.

1.  Fashion stylists - especially the very good ones - do a lot of touching but it’s touching, pulling and sometimes yanking the clothes.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one actually touching the models.

Obviously their hands are in close proximity, but this falls far short of what (I reckon) any reasonable person would consider to be touching the model themselves. 

It may be a bit different with people backstage at fashion shows helping the models get dressed.  I wouldn’t know.  I’m never in those rooms.

2.  I think for a professional fashion model, there must be some sort of implied consent when it comes to having their clothes adjusted by stylists.  After the first few jobs, when one realised that that sort of behaviour was pretty standard, if you weren’t giving some sort of implied consent, I think you would be doing a different sort of modelling.

I’ve never heard an experienced stylist - male or female - ask for permission before adjusting clothes on set.

Laura UnBound wrote:

Still no. You dont know how I look at my boyfriend (or if I even have a boyfriend, if I even like men, if I'm allosexual, etc) and even if we're assuming I have a boyfriend to give sexy looks to, you dont know what he finds "sexy", it might not be the same look you're trying to get, so just stop trying to make the work be about peoples personal sex lives.

Just say youre going for a sexy/sultry/seductive look. Use intelligent words that accurately explain your purpose, for all genres.

If I stood near my partner, exhaled and parted the lips, and squinted slightly in his direction, he'd be utterly confused. He would probably ask me what was wrong.

And additionally - almost all these characteristics that people are claiming are "universal" in our physiology in response to attraction are NOT things that can be seen in a photograph.

How do you see the heart rate quicken?
How do you see breathing change?
This stuff may be innate to (some or many) people - but they're not easily apparent, if at all, from viewing a photograph.

Half the time, you have to slather on quite a lot of makeup to look like you're wearing any color at all on your face when you're being photographed, so a faint flush of excitement?  Dialated pupils??  If someone is a good enough actor to conjure that up at will, you just ain't gonna see 'em in a simple photograph.

Derek Ridgers wrote:

I have two observations to make about this point.

1.  Fashion stylists - especially the very good ones - do a lot of touching but it’s touching, pulling and sometimes yanking the clothes.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one actually touching the models.

Obviously their hands are in close proximity, but this falls far short of what (I reckon) any reasonable person would consider to be touching the model themselves. 

It may be a bit different with people backstage at fashion shows helping the models get dressed.  I wouldn’t know.  I’m never in those rooms.

2.  I think for a professional fashion model, there must be some sort of implied consent when it comes to having their clothes adjusted by stylists.  After the first few jobs, when one realised that that sort of behaviour was pretty standard, if you weren’t giving some sort of implied consent, I think you would be doing a different sort of modelling.

I’ve never heard an experienced stylist - male or female - ask for permission before adjusting clothes on set.

Derek - EXCELLENT!!!  Its nice to see that someone else actually reads the thread before commenting.  The problem in this thread is two-fold.

The first is we're comparing apples to oranges in what's being shot, who's doing what to whom and why.  The comment being discussed was made about an incident at a fashion-style shoot not a one o one shot between model and photographer.  At many of these events models are helped into poses, as well as their clothing for that matter, without anyone running around asking "May I touch you?"  Its part of what's going on and the models involved understand that. Let's keep in mind that at many of these shows models are changing outfits and its all timed so that the show is seamless and everyone is onstage at the right time in the right attire looking stunning.  Unfortunately, the model that got mad may have been inexperienced or, as you stated, didn't understand and would probably be moving on to another type of modeling.

The second problem is that some of the members here look for opportunities to jump on the bandwagon and turn the forums into a free for all based on their own feelings and nothing remotely resembling experience in the subject being discussed.  They don't care that in some circles what passes for acceptable is not acceptable in their own little corner of the world but that doesn't matter. They have an opinion and everyone needs to hear it, regardless if it progresses the discussion in a positive manner or not.

Derek Ridgers wrote:

I have two observations to make about this point.

1.  Fashion stylists - especially the very good ones - do a lot of touching but it’s touching, pulling and sometimes yanking the clothes.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one actually touching the models.

Obviously their hands are in close proximity, but this falls far short of what (I reckon) any reasonable person would consider to be touching the model themselves. 

It may be a bit different with people backstage at fashion shows helping the models get dressed.  I wouldn’t know.  I’m never in those rooms.

2.  I think for a professional fashion model, there must be some sort of implied consent when it comes to having their clothes adjusted by stylists.  After the first few jobs, when one realised that that sort of behaviour was pretty standard, if you weren’t giving some sort of implied consent, I think you would be doing a different sort of modelling.

I’ve never heard an experienced stylist - male or female - ask for permission before adjusting clothes on set.

What was stated is true, I just covered an event in Orange County friday evening featuring a fashion show segment, pretty decent production standards, including a humongous line of buffet food  and full compimentary bar   lots of well heeled VIPs... I sat in the ready room where the models were congregating.  I saw the models I recommended for this show, one was a pageant girl i've shot many times but strangely hardly ever spoke to beyond her turn at official photo shoots.  how it came to pass that she would be interested in modeling, i guess thats when i got her contact information and put her on a priority list...(she's tall). the other is a guy I found working in a pizza joint joint barely a week a go.  I got his contact info and passed it to the producer,  she loved his looks 6'2'  lean  .
I'm sure this guy never expected to actually be in a show  or was going to be punked viciously.. but he invested in a haircut shave and showed up.   Green as they come... poor guy was gunshy  not much of a rehearsal because of all the acts...  I asked some of the experienced guys to help him... yes  they did  they showed him some moves, atitudes   looks..did some practice runs in the room...
all this going on a couple of guys broke into singing Marvin gaye songs...lol..
well the girl models were bunched around the other side of the room  trying on the dresses,  yup in front of the guys, 
and the guys were in their underwears  going thru a rack of suits they needed to model...it looked weird almost everybody was half naked at some point prancing around trying to get ready fo rthe show...the designer was zipping and adjusting the clothes on the models, the guy models at some point were helping the giirls as well, I was running back and forth to the audience  shooting as media... i left when the mandatory speeches  came  about.
I didn't see any of the girls get freaked out or demand the guys including me get out... they knew why they were there...
after they got dressed  they couldnt wait to start shooting I started shooting as they lined up   it was just goofing off shooting   to get loosened    I barked a few commands in a german accent  and busted up.  I'd love to work with this group again   
On stage they smoked it   I have most of their runs  Best part   a few of the models will be coming to my studio for a fashion shoot soon...Since I know most of the models already including my favorite pageant model I don't anticipate any issues,,, I'll have hair and MUA   and these dresses to shoot ...
Obviously this is a different environment from which the posters rails BMW to no end....the people I work with know why they are there... I have to catch all the details  in just a few seconds,,, I mean seconds.  hell of a lot faster to just do that "ask" them or tell them... is a waste of time....
case in point 
this show had 2 runs... the guys were last on stage    the girls had just finished their run....they changed their outfits backstage or the hallway in literally   seconds.....the first model had already changed out and started walking...I'm sure the stress level was high as hell backstage...if they can't handle people helping them get dressed in a dark cramped hallway then they will quickly die in this business. Definitely goes against the grain and belief system here, But I'm fine with that... we're all going out to the desert one day and have a fashion shoot... I don't have to deal with MM drama

Vito wrote:
There's inherently nothing wrong with that request. I'd probably rephrase it as "look at the camera like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce the camera".

As for the adjusting thing. Yes, ask permission, if it is absolutely necessary. BUT in REAL fashion shooting, there is a crew there that practically manhandle personhandle the model. That's the REAL business.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Still no. You dont know how I look at my boyfriend (or if I even have a boyfriend, if I even like men, if I'm allosexual, etc) and even if we're assuming I have a boyfriend to give sexy looks to, you dont know what he finds "sexy", it might not be the same look you're trying to get, so just stop trying to make the work be about peoples personal sex lives.

Just say youre going for a sexy/sultry/seductive look. Use intelligent words that accurately explain your purpose, for all genres.

You have to assume that you look at your significant other in a way that the photographer is looking for. If not, then give the look you do give. It might make a nice picture. It's just a friggin' look the photographer is looking for.

If you want a sad look and the model doesn't look sad enough, you describe something that is very sad.
A happy look? Not happy enough? Think of the happiest thing you can think of.
A sexy look? Not sexy enough? Think of how you look when you see your s/o.

Vito wrote:
There's inherently nothing wrong with that request. I'd probably rephrase it as "look at the camera like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce the camera".

As for the adjusting thing. Yes, ask permission, if it is absolutely necessary. BUT in REAL fashion shooting, there is a crew there that practically manhandle personhandle the model. That's the REAL business.

Garry k wrote:
Saddens me that even the people who work for MM think this way ......

Models feelings are dismissed

And Fashion Stylists and Dressers who assist the Model with Garment and Accessory presentation are viewed as manhandling the model


Seriously?


I would say more in response to your post -but that would likely get me brigged

First, I don't "work" for MM.
How I feel, I don't care if it saddens you.
I used the term manhandling just to convey that photographers assistants or stylists touch and adjust models in the real world of fashion (and other) photography.

ADDED: And yes. In the real world, models feelings are dismissed to get the image. The photographers feelings are dismissed to get the image. The final image is the only thing that matters and the clients reps are the ones who dictate what that should be.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
If I stood near my partner, exhaled and parted the lips, and squinted slightly in his direction, he'd be utterly confused. He would probably ask me what was wrong.

And additionally - almost all these characteristics that people are claiming are "universal" in our physiology in response to attraction are NOT things that can be seen in a photograph.

How do you see the heart rate quicken?
How do you see breathing change?
This stuff may be innate to (some or many) people - but they're not easily apparent, if at all, from viewing a photograph.

Half the time, you have to slather on quite a lot of makeup to look like you're wearing any color at all on your face when you're being photographed, so a faint flush of excitement?  Dialated pupils??  If someone is a good enough actor to conjure that up at will, you just ain't gonna see 'em in a simple photograph.

Jesus, I can't believe I have to keep explaining this. 

Most, if not every human being reacts the same way to the same things.  When we're happy, we smile.  When we find something funny, we laugh.  When we're sad, we cry.  When we're feel pain, we wince.  And, believe it or not, when we're aroused or enamored by someone (regardless of sexual orientation, gender, etc), we look at them with some level of desire and our bodies react to any sexual stimuli. 

Regardless of how you and your ____________ (Fill in the blank here...i.e. lover, BF, GF, mate, spouse, hook up, pity fuck, etc) interact with each other on a normal basis, I don't imagine most people are laughing all the way through making out foreplay, intercourse, cuddling, or the afterglow...unless you have one of those clown fetishes.  Instead, most people who are being intimate will go through normal states of arousal and their bodies/expressions will respond to that. 

As a photographer, I'm not trying to capture a heartbeat, a pupil dilation, or the flushing of the skin.  I'm trying to capture THE EXPRESSION that's associated with the mood.  If I want someone to be sad in a photo, I ask them to think about something that made them sad once.  If I want them to express happiness and fun, I ask them about one of the funniest things they've ever seen; because NORMALLY, it will bring a NATURAL smile to their face instead of a posed/fake smile.  And if I want a more seductive or sensual mood in the photo...and IF the model isn't doing a good job of expressing that on her own (despite her own belief that she IS conveying that through the blue steel looks she's giving...then yes, I'm going to ask them to think about something that will hopefully make their face muscles react so I can get the look I want.

I'm not trying to violate anyone's mind, or trigger some deep rooted emotional trauma.  I'm trying to direct them so WE can get the kind of photos WE decided we were going to shoot for during the planning stages of the shoot. 

I normally ask the models I shoot with to create a mood board, so I can see what types of shots they want for their portfolio and see if what they're looking for would benefit my portfolio as well.  If we agree on a certain style, then we should both be going into as a team and should both be doing our part to make the shots we take fit that theme.  My responsibility is to handle the lighting, the composition, and the background.  The model's responsibility is to handle the pose and the expression.  IF the model isn't meeting her end of the bargain, then isn't it reasonable for me to offer some type of direction and suggestions on how to achieve that look? 

It's not rocket science, it's modeling.

Derek Ridgers wrote:
I have two observations to make about this point.

1.  Fashion stylists - especially the very good ones - do a lot of touching but it’s touching, pulling and sometimes yanking the clothes.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one actually touching the models.

Obviously their hands are in close proximity, but this falls far short of what (I reckon) any reasonable person would consider to be touching the model themselves. 

It may be a bit different with people backstage at fashion shows helping the models get dressed.  I wouldn’t know.  I’m never in those rooms.

2.  I think for a professional fashion model, there must be some sort of implied consent when it comes to having their clothes adjusted by stylists.  After the first few jobs, when one realised that that sort of behaviour was pretty standard, if you weren’t giving some sort of implied consent, I think you would be doing a different sort of modelling.

I’ve never heard an experienced stylist - male or female - ask for permission before adjusting clothes on set.

The problem with your 2 points is......no mention of photographer, which is one of the arguments in this thread,  photographers touching models without permission.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
If I stood near my partner, exhaled and parted the lips, and squinted slightly in his direction, he'd be utterly confused. He would probably ask me what was wrong.

Well, you may have hit the nail on its head right there... that may be a huge part of the problem. Your partner knows what actual real-world arousal looks like, and it's definitely not that. But some "men" are so stunted in their immaturity that they may actually think that's what a woman looks like when she's being "sexy". They're entirely unfamiliar with the actual experience itself, so all they know is to mindlessly ape what they've seen in some photo they're desperately trying to copy. Maybe that's why so many photos are boring half-assed variations of some weird look that exists only in the land of overdone cliches, because the clueless literally don't know any better.

That may explain why some "photographers" (better to call them "imitation technicians") end up so deeply frustrated when their tired cliched instructions don't actually yield the tired cliched look that they are desperately trying to copy, because "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" are a) directions that vastly exceed their painfully-limited experience in reality, and b) are uncomfortable for the model, because what the fuck does my sex life have to do with the boring moronic cliche the "photographer" actually wants to slavishly imitate for the skidillionth time?

kickfight wrote:
Well, you may have hit the nail on its head right there... that may be a huge part of the problem. Your partner knows what actual real-world arousal looks like, and it's definitely not that. But some "men" are so stunted in their immaturity that they may actually think that's what a woman looks like when she's being "sexy". They're entirely unfamiliar with the actual experience itself, so all they know is to mindlessly ape what they've seen in some photo they're desperately trying to copy. Maybe that's why so many photos are boring half-assed variations of some weird look that exists only in the land of overdone cliches, because the clueless literally don't know any better.

That may explain why some "photographers" (better to call them "imitation technicians") end up so deeply frustrated when their tired cliched instructions don't actually yield the tired cliched look that they are desperately trying to copy, because "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" are a) directions that vastly exceed their painfully-limited experience in reality, and b) are uncomfortable for the model, because what the fuck does my sex life have to do with the boring moronic cliche the "photographer" actually wants to slavishly imitate for the skidillionth time?

Thank you for showing me the error of my ways and pointing out that my work is "cliche" (You like that word a lot, don't you?) through your veiled personal attack.  I think I'll give up shooting nudes and instead focus on becoming a foot fetish photographer, like yourself.  After all, what could be more flattering than knowing thousands of men around the globe are masturbating to my photos and videos of a woman's bare feet. 

Tell me, can I sell all my camera gear and just buy a simple point-and-shoot camera with a pop-up flash?  Is it really that simple to sell content?  I mean...you make top selling foot porn look so effortless.  Like, I don't think I'd even need to worry about lighting or composition, as long I use a wide angle lens and focus on the model's feet.  And hell, I don't even have to consider expressions at that point, since feet don't emote...they just stimulate.   This is AWESOME!

Even better, I might be able to have sex with women for the first time in my life by shooting fetish!  I'm still not quite sure on where my penis goes though...is it BETWEEN the big toe and the middle toe?  Or do you just slap it down on the soles of her feet over and over until you cum??  Either way, this is gonna' be GREAT!!  I'll finally know what it's like to experience "normal" sex, the way everyone else does it. 

Who knew this whole time my real problem as a photographer, was that I wasn't aiming high enough for my work to be just as unique, skilled, and artistic as yours.  I'm so ashamed, but I'm hoping you'll take me under your wing and teach me everything you know about being a REAL photographer and not just one in quotation marks.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating...I really, REALLY love you.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Thank you for showing me the error of my ways and pointing out that my work is "cliche" (You like that word a lot, don't you?) through your veiled personal attack.  I think I'll give up shooting nudes and instead focus on becoming a foot fetish photographer, like yourself.  After all, what could be more flattering than knowing thousands of men around the globe are masturbating to my photos and videos of a woman's bare feet. 

Tell me, can I sell all my camera gear and just buy a simple point-and-shoot camera with a pop-up flash?  Is it really that simple to sell content?  I mean...you make top selling foot porn look so effortless.  Like, I don't I'd even need to worry about lighting or composition, as long I use a wide angle lens and focus on the model's feet.  And hell, I don't even have to consider expressions at that point, since feet don't emote...they just stimulate.   This is AWESOME!

Even better, I might be able to have sex with women for the first time in my life by shooting fetish!  I'm still not quite sure on where my penis goes though...is it BETWEEN the big toe and the middle toe?  Or do you just slap it down on the soles of her feet over and over until you cum??  Either way, this is gonna' be GREAT!!  I'll finally know what it's like to experience "normal" sex, the way everyone else does it. 

Who knew this whole time my real problem as a photographer, was that I wasn't aiming high enough for my work to be just as unique, skilled, and artistic as yours.  I'm so ashamed, but I'm hoping you'll take me under your wing and teach me everything you know about being a REAL photographer and not just one in quotation marks.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating...I really, REALLY love you.

That was an EPIC meltdown. We'll be delighting in its awesomeness FOREVER.

Also, just FYI, they're not just masturbating to feet... they're actually masturbating to KICKS (which are, yes, executed with feet).

kickfight wrote:

That was an EPIC meltdown. We'll be delighting in its awesomeness FOREVER.

Also, just FYI, they're not just masturbating to feet... they're actually masturbating to KICKS (which are, yes, executed with feet).

You must be so proud.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
You must be so proud.

Now more than ever.

the lonely photographer wrote:
What was stated is true, I just covered an event in Orange County friday evening featuring a fashion show segment, pretty decent production standards, including a humongous line of buffet food  and full compimentary bar   lots of well heeled VIPs... I sat in the ready room where the models were congregating.  I saw the models I recommended for this show, one was a pageant girl i've shot many times but strangely hardly ever spoke to beyond her turn at official photo shoots.  how it came to pass that she would be interested in modeling, i guess thats when i got her contact information and put her on a priority list...(she's tall). the other is a guy I found working in a pizza joint joint barely a week a go.  I got his contact info and passed it to the producer,  she loved his looks 6'2'  lean  .
I'm sure this guy never expected to actually be in a show  or was going to be punked viciously.. but he invested in a haircut shave and showed up.   Green as they come... poor guy was gunshy  not much of a rehearsal because of all the acts...  I asked some of the experienced guys to help him... yes  they did  they showed him some moves, atitudes   looks..did some practice runs in the room...
all this going on a couple of guys broke into singing Marvin gaye songs...lol..
well the girl models were bunched around the other side of the room  trying on the dresses,  yup in front of the guys, 
and the guys were in their underwears  going thru a rack of suits they needed to model...it looked weird almost everybody was half naked at some point prancing around trying to get ready fo rthe show...the designer was zipping and adjusting the clothes on the models, the guy models at some point were helping the giirls as well, I was running back and forth to the audience  shooting as media... i left when the mandatory speeches  came  about.
I didn't see any of the girls get freaked out or demand the guys including me get out... they knew why they were there...
after they got dressed  they couldnt wait to start shooting I started shooting as they lined up   it was just goofing off shooting   to get loosened    I barked a few commands in a german accent  and busted up.  I'd love to work with this group again   
On stage they smoked it   I have most of their runs  Best part   a few of the models will be coming to my studio for a fashion shoot soon...Since I know most of the models already including my favorite pageant model I don't anticipate any issues,,, I'll have hair and MUA   and these dresses to shoot ...
Obviously this is a different environment from which the posters rails BMW to no end....the people I work with know why they are there... I have to catch all the details  in just a few seconds,,, I mean seconds.  hell of a lot faster to just do that "ask" them or tell them... is a waste of time....
case in point 
this show had 2 runs... the guys were last on stage    the girls had just finished their run....they changed their outfits backstage or the hallway in literally   seconds.....the first model had already changed out and started walking...I'm sure the stress level was high as hell backstage...if they can't handle people helping them get dressed in a dark cramped hallway then they will quickly die in this business. Definitely goes against the grain and belief system here, But I'm fine with that... we're all going out to the desert one day and have a fashion shoot... I don't have to deal with MM drama

matt-h2 wrote:
1. I can't read the word salad below. Please learn to use punctuation. It exists for a reason.

2. I have shot dozens, probably hundreds of models, most of them nude. It's been extraordinarily rare that I had a need to touch them for any reason, and those rare times, I asked for permission. Do that. Full stop. If you don't, sooner or later, you will find yourself the subject of a hostile workplace issue. Those never end well for you.




ill take your word  on it regarding your proclivity to shoot nude models.  whoopee..yawn
everybody here seems to .At least in this forum.
  if you cant comprehend my post...ignore it... i wont be offended..So you proclaim with great pomposity you have shot dozens,  perhaps hundreds...which is it? why  are you bothering to tell me that?  As you can see in my portfolio I have no pictures of nude women. I don't shoot nudes period. its a kiss of death in my line of work.  I work with parents, city officials  sponsors, and people of great influence. I don't want any pictures of that type connected to me period. I'm not judging others here, its none of my business how people interact here, whatever rules you guys want to follow or pretend to follow  I don't care. You people jumping on others , what to elevate yourselves? curry favor so you look good?  I work with a professional team that have done dozens of shows ,some have been broadcast on cable channels, I meet new models with each show, a lot of times I submit new talent to the producers o get them on the runway...Its called trust... it comes from not having people trash talk you behind your back. When a group of models see you and come over and give you a hug   including all the wealthy old ladies bankrolling these events, you kinda know its like family...So if a new model has issues with being posed, then she'll have to step back, nobody has time to deal with trust issues. agree or disagree  the team has each others back. if it becomes a legal issue she won't have a leg to stand on..i worked with former runway and commercial model that directed some shoots...I remember her grabbing the models feet and and admonishing her for showing shoe bottoms...  somtimes the hair on a models face don't fall right,    out comes a rattail comb and hair gets teased into position, sometimes I have to watch in the viewfinder.. at least nobody tells the model to think about cheesy things like sex with her boyfriend or erotic thoughts....its about the  clothes.
Go ahead and take your shots  and laugh all you want...Since none of you are writing my paycheck   I'll laugh too  all the way to the bank...

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I think it's interesting to look through the portfolios of those making comments one way or another. The photographers portfolio tells me a lot about how they direct a shoot or work with their models.

Also it's interesting to see how models and photographers talk about adjusting models. Now I will state if I need to adjust a model I always ask and wait for them to say yes.  However I was struck that in a documentary about the New Muses calendar from TREATS magazine that perhaps one of the most successful fashion photographers as well as nude Photographers David B literally sculpts a model with his hands.

So while I would never feel comfortable to do what he does I think the good old fashion MM forum crowd loves to rush to judgement. That is why I also believe these forums have limited value.

That's just my humble opinion.

Guess you didn't hear the news

Photographer David Bellremere has just been accused of sexual iinapprprateness by a number of models

Garry k wrote:
Photographer David Bellremere has jebel accused of sexual iinapprprateness by a number of models

And, dropped by Victoria's Secret.

He had a $80,000 job lined up with Maybelline and that got postponed.  Not sure if it ever went, through.