Philip Brown wrote:

I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

The person they're responding to is in Los Angeles...

regardless, inexperienced models doesn't mean you get to manhandle them.

Laura UnBound wrote:

If two models failed to understand your direction then the problem is with your direction, not the models.

But also judging by your other replies, you're just fucking gross and disrespectful of women. /shrug

Yeah, and it is guys like this that argue that no escorts with models should be allowed. It isn't just a problem for models, the rest of us photographers have to deal with the impressions these guys leave every time we talk to a model or client.

Philip Brown wrote:
I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

It's pretty asinine to suggest models in one side of the country are more talented and better at following directions.  If you've been told 3 times, you've been told 3 million times, the problem is you.  Stop making excuses maybe you'll start improving.

Pssssst...btw, many models travel coast to coast.

Garry k wrote:

Sometimes as an ice breaker I say " give me your superbitch" 

That gets most Models laughing  I which I want)

Those that don't laugh I think " hmmmm you,re the real one "

Watch out for bitch slap.

Garry k wrote:
Respect ....I think it best not to ask Models about their personal lives unless the bring it up and want talk about it  (in a healthy way)

I had a situation several years ago where my HMUA Asked the Model about her relationship status ...the Model ended up sobbing In a ball on the floor because she ha just gone through a painful breakup ..

Oh no!  I have the same policy with photographers about letting them open up on their own when we're first getting to know each other.  If we've known each other for a while, I'll start to get a sense that it's ok to start asking more direct questions, but so many photographers who I've worked with have spouses who are sick, deceased, or who are having major relationship issues/are getting divorced.  The last thing I would want to do would be to accidentally bring up a painful topic in the middle of a shoot which is supposed to be fun, easy, and comfortable.

Philip Brown wrote:
I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

I note that you're posting from "Long Beach, California."  We have lots of fabulous and talented models who are able to follow direction within easy driving distance of Long Beach, and even more fabulous and talented traveling models who visit the area to book shoots.  Some of them are even from New York.

Philip Brown wrote:
I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

I can't imagine what your agenda is, but apparently it has trumped your reading ability. I responded to the assertion made that a 'big bucks' shoot somehow changes set etiquette or general professionalism in directing models. While I would wager than I have directed many more professional photoshoots than the author of that statement, your hypothesis that because of my location I would have LESS experience with directing models of a variety of experience levels.

Did you think that I parachuted into a career of shooting professional models? Did you imagine that I haven't worked with beginning models, difficult models, foreign models, special needs models? Experience means just that. The photographer clearly has a small amount of experience, but the totality of his statements is equally revealing that his experience is quite limited.

His lame defense and posturing shows that he has a limited view of the roles and professionalism on photosets. I would also wager than his definition of 'big bucks' and my definition are dramatically different levels.

Philip Brown wrote:
I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

Dan has worked all over the United States and in other countries!

Dan Howell wrote:
The OP ...

His...

I don't think you mean OP.

Mina Salome wrote:
Experienced models know how to give a sultry look, they don't need you to give them a scenario to achieve the look.

I think you have a very interesting point to make in general here but I don’t think you’re right about the above.

I’ve come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter how experienced or inexperienced a model is, some just are not able to give a wide range of realistic expressions. 

Some really good fashion models have basically just one look.  It would be unkind and inappropriate for me to mention names but I shot one quite big time fashion model about two years ago.  She had one look, a killer stare which reminded me somewhat of the Children of the Damned film.  Not exactly “sultry” but certainly approaching it.  Off set she was one of the most cheerful, happy looking models I’ve ever met.  Just not when a camera was turned on her.

I suppose if that one look is what enough people want, a whole career can be built around it.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
Humans misinterpret others' faces and body language all the time. Facial expressions and body language have deep bias towards what culture one grew up in, how they formed their communication skills, etc. .

I disagree.  There may well be some nuances to be found amongst undiscovered tribes in Borneo but IMHO most key facial expressions are universal. 

Happy, sad, shocked, angry, scared, nauseous, uncertain… I don’t think the human race would have come so far if there were any major confusions.

Even babies in their cots, well before they learn to speak, can recognise quite a wide range of different facial expressions.

Mina Salome wrote:
Yep, I make very sexy glamour/boudoir/nude images.  I know that people find them sexy because men on Instagram message me all day long to tell me so.

I looked at your Instagram and without slipping into the area of critique I can, I think, say that don’t quite see what you see.  And I think it’s a big mistake to base any of your thinking on what men on Instagram say.

Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.

Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots.  In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.

I spoke about this with some other models, and realized that some of the people who say these things may be doing so because no one has ever spoken up to tell them not to.  Some models may be ok with the request, but others are likely uncomfortable and not speaking up.  Photoshoots move fast, and sometimes it can be hard to speak up about quick things that happen.  There have definitely been moments where it was easier just to give a quick sultry look and move on.

As a photographer, I appreciate a model's insight on this issue and I thank you for your openness.

Derek Ridgers wrote:

I looked at your Instagram and without slipping into the area of critique I can, I think, say that don’t quite see what you see.  And I think it’s a big mistake to base any of your thinking on what men on Instagram say.

Cool, bro, I was totally looking for your critique on whether or not my images are sexy.  That is both helpful and relevant to the conversation.  Well done!

Randy Dixon wrote:

Yeah, and it is guys like this that argue that no escorts with models should be allowed. It isn't just a problem for models, the rest of us photographers have to deal with the impressions these guys leave every time we talk to a model or client.

escorts dont magically make people treat you with respect. Most models don't actually care about escorts (and don't want or need them, I personally think they're a pain in the ass and as a photographer also I don't really want them around either), we want respect.

This is not an escorts problem, its a respecting models as equal human beings problem.

kickfight wrote:
OP offered valuable advice intended to help photographers create a better shoot environment, simply by suggesting they avoid certain dopey cliches that are both totally unnecessary and potentially creepy. She was also super-specific about those cliches... directly invoking the ones where the photographer is instructing the model to pretend she's seducing someone from her own life or someone who is present at the shoot, which is objectively an off-putting instruction. There are literally hundreds of far more effective and far less sleazy ways for one professional to elicit the same expression from another professional.

But, because this is MM, laughable weakling manlets gotta screech and squeal like colicky babies at such reasonable advice. Oh, well. So it goes.

Tell me, good sir (White) Knight; where doth thou park thy white stallion overnight?

The OP offered advice that applies to her and possibly a select few other models on this site.  Her concerns probably don't apply to all models however, because I'm sure some models (especially inexperienced models) actually do appreciate the input from photographers.  Telling everyone here to avoid using verbal cues to direct a model is like telling all men to avoid using pick up lines when trying to ask a woman out. 

Fact is, some men can use a pick up line and sound completely lecherous.   Another guy can use the same line and come across as charming or smooth.   It all depends on who's saying it and who's hearing it. 

I have no doubt there are some photographers out there who come across as creepy simply based on the way they dress or the way they carry themselves.   They might be the nicest person in the world, but lack social skills.  Instead of giving all of us advice on what to say, or what not to say at a shoot, maybe it'd be bettet to address the models who are uncomfortable with that type of direction to speak up and express their feelings before the shoot continues.   After all, I imagine a respectful photographer will adapt to that request.   If he hears it repeatedly from different models, then maybe he needs to reconsider his approach.   If he doesn't though, then maybe his approach is fine the way it is.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Tell me, good sir (White) Knight; where doth thou park thy white stallion overnight?

There's also always that one who still uses the dopey cliched "white knight" fail like it's still 2012

kickfight wrote:
There's also always that one who still uses the dopey cliched "white knight" fail like it's still 2012

Ha ha!

So true

kickfight wrote:
There's also always that one who still uses the dopey cliched "white knight" fail like it's still 2012

Garry k wrote:
Ha ha!

So true

I guess that's because I've spent a lot of my time over the years here working on my photography skills, and not as much time working on my forum debate skills.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
I guess that's because I've spent a lot of my time working on my photography skills, and not as much time working on my forum debate skills.

Well, don't feel too bad... some people *are* utter crap at multitasking effectively. It's clearly not for everyone.

kickfight wrote:

Well, don't feel too bad... some people *are* utter crap at multitasking effectively. It's clearly not for everyone.

Kind of like photography.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Kind of like photography.

Or coming up with one single original idea that hasn't been done to death a million times before, yes. Kind of like that.

Which just serves to reiterate OP's point. If someone's become merely a collection of tiresome and annoying cliches, it's probably time to find more meaningful forms of expression.

kickfight wrote:

Or coming up with one single original idea that hasn't been done to death a million times before, yes. Kind of like that.

Can you show me one of yours?  I'm curious to see what that looks like.  Maybe you could post it in the Critique forum though, so we can stay on topic here in this thread.

Just an idea.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Can you show me one of yours?  I'm curious to see what that looks like.

Are you, though? I'm skeptical.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Maybe you could post it in the Critique forum though, so we can stay on topic here in this thread.

I'm far more interested in following this attempt at working on those "forum debate skills".

kickfight wrote:
I'm far more interested in following this attempt at working on those "forum debate skills".

Is getting the last word in part of that?  Or did that fade out in 2012 as well?  Because I just kinda' want to get back on topic before someone starts breaking out a measuring tape.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Is getting the last word in part of that?  Or did that fade out in 2012 as well?

Is "getting the last word in" a source of anxiety? Because that seems like a very odd digression.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Because I just kinda' want to get back on topic before someone starts breaking out a measuring tape.

Carpentry, at 2AM? I cannot abide.

kickfight wrote:

Is "getting the last word in" a source of anxiety? Because that seems like a very odd digression.

I love you.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
I love you.

I love you also. Plus, I love this world that has made it possible for us to say so.

kickfight wrote:

I love you also. Plus, I love this world that has made it possible for us to say so.

But I said I mean it. 

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
But I said I mean it. 

I acknowledge this as well.

kickfight wrote:

I acknowledge this as well.

That's not the same thing  

...but I'm too tired to open up another can of worms, and I need to get up early, so let's just say goodnight.  You can teach me more lessons the next time.

You say it first.

Garry k wrote:
if mature veteran Models ( who have worked with all manner of photographers ) find such a cue offensive - imagine how the average new aspiring model might react ... say maybe an 18 yr old aspiring fashion model

I don't think it has anything to do with models age. It's a personal thing and also depends what kind of relationship you have with the model. If you are shooting first time I wouldn't make any comments that could be "dangerous".

Philip Brown wrote:

I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

ha ha - awesome quote.

I've observed some cultural differences from models in different parts of the world.  I live in New York, New York but my favorite models are from Baltimore with their "no holds barred" approach to everything.  Followed by models in Texas with their intense BIG attitude of everything is BIG in Texas.  California models have that smooth silky movement in everything they do.  Jersey girls are wicked and unpredictable.  Models in Atlanta have that secret smile of Southern hospitality... imho.

PHP-Photography wrote:
I don't think it has anything to do with models age. It's a personal thing and also depends what kind of relationship you have with the model. If you are shooting first time I wouldn't make any comments that could be "dangerous".

Certainly the better you know someone the better you would understand how personal the communication can be,what subjects they feel comfortable in discussing etc

there is often ( not always ) an imbalance in age and ( for want of a better word ) power between " older " male photographers and " younger " female models and in such situations I believe it's respectful for the photographer to take cues from the model as to how personal the communication should get

During my time as a  fashion/ glamourphotographer I have met hundreds of female models ( mostly in the 17 to 25 year range) and I can only recall a few that openly talked about their sexuality from the outset

I even had a " Muse " for nearly a decade ( who I did more shoots with than I can remember ) and we never once communicated about her sexuality

maybe though it's different in the world of erotic photography ...I do not know

I note though that the OP does not list herself as an Erotic Model