Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.

Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots.  ...

...

  Experienced models know how to give a sultry look, they don't need you to give them a scenario to achieve the look. I'm on friendly personal terms with many of the photographers who I shoot with, but it doesn't mean that I want my sex life to come up while we are shooting.  I'm at a shoot in a professional context.  It's not appropriate to as a woman at an office job about her sex life, and it's not appropriate to ask models about it either.  Some models may be extremely open and forthcoming about personal details, but for others, these things are private.  Please don't make assumptions that models will feel comfortable if you bring it up.

Although I completely agree with your premise; a model's personal life should not be used as fodder for a shoot,  a large number of people I shoot are NOT models, If they are, they're relatively inexperienced. I can bend over backwards trying to explain concepts of "sultry" and "seductive", but this just wastes a lot of time without being able to communicate in a way the look/expression I am looking for that the MODELS UNDERSTAND. When adjectives fail, you use similes and metaphors.

It's the foundation of the The Stanislavski Method of Acting; to put the actor in the situation of the character, which is exactly what, "Imagine you are looking at your boyfriend." does.

Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative? Not everyone communicates like you, or me, or the next model. Some people need to be prompted with a situation or have them draw from a memory. You may have the experience and background to know what a sultry expression is, but it doesn't mean everyone else does.

I will try different ways of explaining, to see what works. If I find that, "imagine this camera is your boyfriend" works, then I will, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt,  do that.

PHP-Photography wrote:

I hope it's ok to do this thru viewfinder, I need to check that both ears and all toes and fingers are inside the frame.

Well that’s the problem.  You can’t possibly do a shoot without the actions that qualify as harassment these days, so basically if anyone ever feels uncomfortable, you're guilty.   It’s great the EEOC wants people to have a comfortable work environment, but stretching the definition of harassment to the point where standing close to someone or looking at someone meets the definition is in my opinion a bad approach.

Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own. {SNIP}

Good advice, both your points well taken and well made.

Garry k wrote:

the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot  there were at least 10 models..at that shoot  I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way.  verbal instructions didnt really work.  finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose..  she got mad...  told her to sit down..  shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either   she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein,  In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah  designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her  especially the other photographers...shame

Maybe try demonstrating the pose or showing them a photo

where are we going to get a photo of the pose when we are shooting ,  physical?   I had models that wasted a lot of time trying to pose their feet and legs   even after we showed them how.. there were 45 of them 16 in the front row split in half facing each group in a 45 degree angle..  their legs and feet had to be a certain way....noooooooooo.....it took over 10 mins to adjust them    and that is after we got on our hands and knees moving their feet and legs into position... 
the models have to trust the team working with her... this is a business. I never go into the dressing areas backstage when the models are changing during a run,  there are guys in there  usualy MUAHs  and the designers, ohh the temper tantrums some of these guys can throw...its accepted    the gay guys can go backstage, and models have no issue being naked in front of them.... I guess they figure they won't get ogled or leered at by gay guys and feel safe...
I've never shot a nude model from MM  and I have never paid a model   clothed or not. I don't shoot nude models as a hobby nor would I proudly display them to other model mayhem members as in a competition.  As for that single model that had issues with being touched   we don't miss her....placing her hand on her hip exactly where we need it,,, because the dress had a  hidden pocket detail and her fingers had to indicate that it  was there...   that model had PTSD  hair trigger about something,  sounding like a mean SOB, I don't have time to try to understand   her ... thats the way it is..
I worked with regular models for fun purpose, just to hang out. we  shoot all kinds of stuff and  they start taking their clothes off   telling me they want naked pictures...hah   take them   give them copies later on  but they know nobody  and I mean nobody  will ever see them.. never brought up....one model wants an annual shoot...

the lonely photographer wrote:
I never go into the dressing areas backstage when the models are changing during a run,  there are guys in there  usualy MUAHs  and the designers, ohh the temper tantrums some of these guys can throw...its accepted    the gay guys can go backstage, and models have no issue being naked in front of them.... I guess they figure they won't get ogled or leered at by gay guys and feel safe...

What I dont understand, is the split brain at work here.
With erotic/implied/nude shoots, some models gets "concerned" that she might get "ogled"...
but the entire point of the shoot is to generate images of her for ogling purposes.

Umm...
Hello?

oh well.
I'm glad I dont do those kinds of shoots, I can skip the drama

ImageCRAFTbyAleks wrote:
This is getting too hard. NO.... NO! Not that way! OMG! I mean too difficult! No, you're not difficult, just challenging! Uniquely challenging! No, not like a freak! In a good way. Very appealing! NO!!!! Not personally appealing. I don't find you appealing at all! Yes, you are pretty! ...Some would say beautiful. I'm just here to make you look your best! NO! I'm not a controlling misogynist!  I know you have the power to make yourself beautiful... from inside! I'm just here to capture that elusive moment when it peeks out like the groundhog on February 2nd. No... I didn't equate you to a rodent. You're fully evolved! No, I that wasn't a double entendre about your breasts! You have breasts? I didn't no---- NO NO NO! Yes they are proportionate to your size and frame and I took professional notice of them but no personal notice what-so-ever. None. Zip. I'm a eunuch. Yes, really. No, I didn't share personal sexual information with you to try and get your sexual info. No, I won't show you. Because I'm not a cheap piece of meat for your curiosity. Okay, fine, now I know how you feel. I'm so terribly sorry you were kidnapped and forced into a life of offering strange men with cameras half-closed eyelids and your mouth slightly parted. I swear, I'm not happy that you chose this line of work. It's like me. I'd rather sell insurance. Seriously! I was forced into this life of servitude, of trying to capture the elusive elements of a human beings perfection. It's a curse. I hate it. I'm so continually misunderstood that all I want to do is get a free peep show of pretty people. I wish I could find the artistic merit of photographing bums on benches and destitute old bag ladies with hammer toes. I've prayed that I discover another genre that I excelled at. I really didn't mean for you to be my vic---er...subject. You were just so pretty. And I thought I could show others what I see in you. I'm sorry.

yeah  I get it... youre kinda tired of being labeled a candidate for a sex offenders database... there are lots of reasons why guys here hire nude models, I have a few ideas why but most would deny them and call me full of shit, a lot would never admit to why, actually I don't care. what bothers me is some models here BMW about the methods these guys try to get a response they think looks good, maybe they are living a fantasy of being a famous director... its cheesy as hell but they are paying for your time,  you can't humour him? if he crosses the line   mace him    ! tell him you thought is was part of the act

Francisco Castro wrote:
Although I completely agree with your premise; a model's personal life should not be used as fodder for a shoot,  a large number of people I shoot are NOT models, If they are, they're relatively inexperienced. I can bend over backwards trying to explain concepts of "sultry" and "seductive", but this just wastes a lot of time without being able to communicate in a way the look/expression I am looking for that the MODELS UNDERSTAND. When adjectives fail, you use similes and metaphors.

It's the foundation of the The Stanislavski Method of Acting; to put the actor in the situation of the character, which is exactly what, "Imagine you are looking at your boyfriend." does.

<<<<Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative?>>>>

Not everyone communicates like you, or me, or the next model. Some people need to be prompted with a situation or have them draw from a memory. You may have the experience and background to know what a sultry expression is, but it doesn't mean everyone else does.

I will try different ways of explaining, to see what works. If I find that, "imagine this camera is your boyfriend" works, then I will, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt,  do that.

Finally somebody asks the question.

<<<<Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative?>>>>

I will also add that even where touching etc. is needed, NEVER without asking permission first. That takes 1 whole second. I ask, even to adjust the edge of a dress that might be 3 feet away from the model. It is simple courtesy.

And if I am going to have to spend 15 min. trying to find a politically correct way to get an emotion, then the shoot is over.

Of course people have different ways of expressing themselves. This is news? I once asked a model to give me a sultry look. The shot was amazing. But not in the way she intended, It was funny as hell.

However, part of the main premise of the OP of models here saying what they don't like is excellent.
However they should not get upset when some come back and say that that will not work. I can see (as an example) why some would want an escort. But many photographers will explain why that will not fly with them, and the models need to accept that, and neither party will work with the other. So be it.

A little common sense, and common courtesy goes a long way. But we also need to understand that being behind, and in front of a camera are pretty artificial situations, and have some of their own customs and styles.

Francisco Castro wrote:
Although I completely agree with your premise; a model's personal life should not be used as fodder for a shoot,  a large number of people I shoot are NOT models, If they are, they're relatively inexperienced. I can bend over backwards trying to explain concepts of "sultry" and "seductive", but this just wastes a lot of time without being able to communicate in a way the look/expression I am looking for that the MODELS UNDERSTAND. When adjectives fail, you use similes and metaphors.

It's the foundation of the The Stanislavski Method of Acting; to put the actor in the situation of the character, which is exactly what, "Imagine you are looking at your boyfriend." does.

Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative? Not everyone communicates like you, or me, or the next model. Some people need to be prompted with a situation or have them draw from a memory. You may have the experience and background to know what a sultry expression is, but it doesn't mean everyone else does.

I will try different ways of explaining, to see what works. If I find that, "imagine this camera is your boyfriend" works, then I will, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt,  do that.

I remember years ago I attended workshop with a well known headshot photographer,  highly paid.
he had a certain look to his  shots... you can spot his among hundreds of pics..
when he directed his models.. he would instruct them to narrow their eyes.


" give me that look... like a bitch!"  "a stuck up bitch"

I kinda laughed then      sometimes I ask my models for that bitchy look....they say i don't know  how to be a bitch..
well can you imagine I kicked your cat?

whatever works.

Philip Brown wrote:
What I dont understand, is the split brain at work here.
With erotic/implied/nude shoots, some models gets "concerned" that she might get "ogled"...
but the entire point of the shoot is to generate images of her for ogling purposes.

Umm...
Hello?

oh well.
I'm glad I dont do those kinds of shoots, I can skip the drama

Well  you have a point there.
Its been long established females will contradict and forever send mixed signals to utterly confuse the male brain
women will spend hours primping and preening getting ready for a date wearing the most sexy outfits. and then if they get a response   all hell breaks loose. I wonder if its not a game they play to see how much they can "F" with the guys head.

the lonely photographer wrote:

Well  you have a point there.
Its been long established females will contradict and forever send mixed signals to utterly confuse the male brain
women will spend hours primping and preening getting ready for a date wearing the most sexy outfits. and then if they get a response   all hell breaks loose. I wonder if its not a game they play to see how much they can "F" with the guys head.

You are in danger of starting a whole new thread here.

Herman Surkis wrote:

You are in danger of starting a whole new thread here.

yeah probably   maybe we can start a new forum  called "the MANCAVE"

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Conveying emotion through facial expression has to be the most difficult challenge a Model encounters.  TBH I've only ever encountered one Model to date who could emote naturally,  She wasn't even a Model,  She was a dancer in a club and knew how to pull the tips.  My suggestion was that I had a pocket full of Cash and it was Her job to earn it,  She killed. 

The set or theme of the shoot should indicate to an experienced Model what type of look is to be expected.

you go to strip clubs?? oh my   your horrid man!! repent now!!

the lonely photographer wrote:

I remember years ago I attended workshop with a well known headshot photographer,  highly paid.
he had a certain look to his  shots... you can spot his among hundreds of pics..
when he directed his models.. he would instruct them to narrow their eyes.


" give me that look... like a bitch!"  "a stuck up bitch"

I kinda laughed then      sometimes I ask my models for that bitchy look....they say i don't know  how to be a bitch..
well can you imagine I kicked your cat?

whatever works.

Sometimes as an ice breaker I say " give me your superbitch" 

That gets most Models laughing  I which I want)

Those that don't laugh I think " hmmmm you,re the real one "

Herman Surkis wrote:

Finally somebody asks the question.

<<<<Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative?>>>>

I will also add that even where touching etc. is needed, NEVER without asking permission first. That takes 1 whole second. I ask, even to adjust the edge of a dress that might be 3 feet away from the model. It is simple courtesy.

And if I am going to have to spend 15 min. trying to find a politically correct way to get an emotion, then the shoot is over.

Of course people have different ways of expressing themselves. This is news? I once asked a model to give me a sultry look. The shot was amazing. But not in the way she intended, It was funny as hell.

However, part of the main premise of the OP of models here saying what they don't like is excellent.
However they should not get upset when some come back and say that that will not work. I can see (as an example) why some would want an escort. But many photographers will explain why that will not fly with them, and the models need to accept that, and neither party will work with the other. So be it.

A little common sense, and common courtesy goes a long way. But we also need to understand that being behind, and in front of a camera are pretty artificial situations, and have some of their own customs and styles.

To some extent Models are Actors . asking the to draw upon something that makes them feel a certain way is more can be a more respectful approach ithan giving specific mention to say a particular personal personal relationship they've had

Philip Brown wrote:

What I dont understand, is the split brain at work here.
With erotic/implied/nude shoots, some models gets "concerned" that she might get "ogled"...
but the entire point of the shoot is to generate images of her for ogling purposes.

Umm...
Hello?

oh well.
I'm glad I dont do those kinds of shoots, I can skip the drama

Don't ogle Models during photo shoots Phillip ...but you can stare at them to make sure that all the details are working out to create a good photo

the lonely photographer wrote:

Garry k wrote:

the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot  there were at least 10 models..at that shoot  I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way.  verbal instructions didnt really work.  finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose..  she got mad...  told her to sit down..  shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either   she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein,  In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah  designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her  especially the other photographers...shame

Maybe try demonstrating the pose or showing them a photo

where are we going to get a photo of the pose when we are shooting ,  physical?   I had models that wasted a lot of time trying to pose their feet and legs   even after we showed them how.. there were 45 of them 16 in the front row split in half facing each group in a 45 degree angle..  their legs and feet had to be a certain way....noooooooooo.....it took over 10 mins to adjust them    and that is after we got on our hands and knees moving their feet and legs into position... 
the models have to trust the team working with her... this is a business. I never go into the dressing areas backstage when the models are changing during a run,  there are guys in there  usualy MUAHs  and the designers, ohh the temper tantrums some of these guys can throw...its accepted    the gay guys can go backstage, and models have no issue being naked in front of them.... I guess they figure they won't get ogled or leered at by gay guys and feel safe...
I've never shot a nude model from MM  and I have never paid a model   clothed or not. I don't shoot nude models as a hobby nor would I proudly display them to other model mayhem members as in a competition.  As for that single model that had issues with being touched   we don't miss her....placing her hand on her hip exactly where we need it,,, because the dress had a  hidden pocket detail and her fingers had to indicate that it  was there...   that model had PTSD  hair trigger about something,  sounding like a mean SOB, I don't have time to try to understand   her ... thats the way it is..
I worked with regular models for fun purpose, just to hang out. we  shoot all kinds of stuff and  they start taking their clothes off   telling me they want naked pictures...hah   take them   give them copies later on  but they know nobody  and I mean nobody  will ever see them.. never brought up....one model wants an annual shoot...

Some basic ideas

you have referred to these shoots as catalogue shoots ....catalogue style poses are well documented on line - so collect some photos of these poses on you phone or tablet and bring them to the shoot

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
And I think you're missing my point.  Pupil dilation is a parasympathetic response triggered by the autonomic nervous system.  Blinking, breathing, sweating, goose bumps, and our hearrbeat are also part of this system, so they're things our body simply controls without any conscious thought.  Our brains are capable of overriding the system though and we can (sometimes with training) learn to control them more. 

Clear your thoughts for a moment though, relax, breat deep, and try to release any tension in the muscles in your face.  Give your body a second to feel at rest.  Now, imagineone of the funniest things you've ever seen. 

If you're like most people,  your heartbeat changed suddenly and either a smile came across your face or you laughed a little after reading that sentence.  The thoughts triggered the parasympathetic response.   It's simple as that, and, as a photographer, I've found it sometimes helps bring out the expressions I'm looking for. 

I'm a more analytical type personality and lean more toward the introvert side of the Meyer's Briggs personality type.  I have a very dry sense of humor, so me telling a joke would likely feel more awkward than funny.  Laughter also isn't the mood I want for my photos.  Robert Alvarado (A popular pin up photographer and friend of mine) is hilarious during a shoot though.  For his style of work, he needs that positive, playful, happy mood that's also sexy and "naughty". 

Just my opinion, but don't overthink a photographer's method for getting the shots he/she wants.  If the photographer does good work, and if they're respecting your boundaries and not being creepy, then follow their direction and be part of creating art.  If you're uncomfortable with the direction though, then say something about it.  Also, just because that type of direction bothers you though, doesn't mean every model is affected the same way and doesn't mean WE should be told not to do it with any other model.  That'd be like a walk-on actor telling Steven Spielberg or Stanley Kubrick (if he was still alive) to change their directing style to suit their own feelings.

i couldnt agree more

Garry k wrote:

the lonely photographer wrote:

Garry k wrote:

the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot  there were at least 10 models..at that shoot  I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way.  verbal instructions didnt really work.  finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose..  she got mad...  told her to sit down..  shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either   she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein,  In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah  designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her  especially the other photographers...shame

Maybe try demonstrating the pose or showing them a photo

where are we going to get a photo of the pose when we are shooting ,  physical?   I had models that wasted a lot of time trying to pose their feet and legs   even after we showed them how.. there were 45 of them 16 in the front row split in half facing each group in a 45 degree angle..  their legs and feet had to be a certain way....noooooooooo.....it took over 10 mins to adjust them    and that is after we got on our hands and knees moving their feet and legs into position... 
the models have to trust the team working with her... this is a business. I never go into the dressing areas backstage when the models are changing during a run,  there are guys in there  usualy MUAHs  and the designers, ohh the temper tantrums some of these guys can throw...its accepted    the gay guys can go backstage, and models have no issue being naked in front of them.... I guess they figure they won't get ogled or leered at by gay guys and feel safe...
I've never shot a nude model from MM  and I have never paid a model   clothed or not. I don't shoot nude models as a hobby nor would I proudly display them to other model mayhem members as in a competition.  As for that single model that had issues with being touched   we don't miss her....placing her hand on her hip exactly where we need it,,, because the dress had a  hidden pocket detail and her fingers had to indicate that it  was there...   that model had PTSD  hair trigger about something,  sounding like a mean SOB, I don't have time to try to understand   her ... thats the way it is..
I worked with regular models for fun purpose, just to hang out. we  shoot all kinds of stuff and  they start taking their clothes off   telling me they want naked pictures...hah   take them   give them copies later on  but they know nobody  and I mean nobody  will ever see them.. never brought up....one model wants an annual shoot...

Some basic ideas

you have referred to these shoots as catalogue shoots ....catalogue style poses are well documented on line - so collect some photos of these poses on you phone or tablet and bring them to the shoot

Sometimes a team wants to create images or poses nobody has done before. ??

Garry k wrote:

Don't ogle Models during photo shoots Phillip ...but you can stare at them to make sure that all the details are working out to create a good photo

Philip hasn't been here long enough to ogle...give him time...luckily my models trust me enough to know when I look them over its because I want them to look good...that goes for the fake eyelashes   the contouring makeup, the  choice of bling bling,  sometimes i look at their boobs....and tell them to try another outfit  or get some silicone booby pads to fill out a dress..    we try to get the best looks and help where  nature cheaped out... we call them back for other shoots and they know whats expected next time....no drama... we get an occasional diva   drama queen or prima donna.... I get warned by designers not to deal with certain models, and models that I trust point out the same ones and it seems some have a rep for being troublesome or a pain in the ass.   word gets around..everybody knows everybody here...
and that goes for some of the photographers  I know a few that are total dicks   maybe not towards models  but assholes  when you run into them during events.  its not a perfect world  sorry

Garry k wrote:

Sometimes as an ice breaker I say " give me your superbitch" 

That gets most Models laughing  I which I want)

Those that don't laugh I think " hmmmm you,re the real one "

lol    yeah...i met a few

the lonely photographer wrote:

Philip hasn't been here long enough to ogle...give him time...luckily my models trust me enough to know when I look them over its because I want them to look good...that goes for the fake eyelashes   the contouring makeup, the  choice of bling bling,  sometimes i look at their boobs....and tell them to try another outfit  or get some silicone booby pads to fill out a dress..    we try to get the best looks and help where  nature cheaped out... we call them back for other shoots and they know whats expected next time....no drama... we get an occasional diva   drama queen or prima donna.... I get warned by designers not to deal with certain models, and models that I trust point out the same ones and it seems some have a rep for being troublesome or a pain in the ass.   word gets around..everybody knows everybody here...
and that goes for some of the photographers  I know a few that are total dicks   maybe not towards models  but assholes  when you run into them during events.  its not a perfect world  sorry

Ogling is for beginners

Staring at every detail is for advanced shooters because we know thar one detail out of place can ruin the shot ...ie a hair out of place , a wrinkle in the clothing etc

Philip Brown wrote:
What I dont understand, is the split brain at work here.
With erotic/implied/nude shoots, some models gets "concerned" that she might get "ogled"...
but the entire point of the shoot is to generate images of her for ogling purposes.

Umm...
Hello?

oh well.
I'm glad I dont do those kinds of shoots, I can skip the drama

Actually, there's a big difference between wanting to create sexy images and feeling uncomfortable with a photographer staring/being overtly sexual towards a model.  Shoots should be, as much as possible, comfortable for all involved.  Yep, I make very sexy glamour/boudoir/nude images.  I know that people find them sexy because men on Instagram message me all day long to tell me so.  Most of the time, I feel perfectly comfortable at shoots and with the photographers who I'm working with.  Occasionally though, I've felt that photographers were trying to share their personal sexual arousal with me during a shoot, and I spoke up about how uncomfortable that made me.  I've also had photographers tell me that I was beautiful, and it was not a big deal.  There are a lot of reasons, many subtle, about why a model would feel comfortable in one situation but not the other.

Francisco Castro wrote:
Now, going back to your premise of what shouldn't be done, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better and still efficient alternative? Not everyone communicates like you, or me, or the next model. Some people need to be prompted with a situation or have them draw from a memory. You may have the experience and background to know what a sultry expression is, but it doesn't mean everyone else does.

Sure!  I'm happy to provide examples of things that have been said to me in the past which felt better.  To be clear, since this doesn't seem clear to everyone here, I'm not providing absolute rules or asking that my words be inscribed on stone tablets.  Human interactions are full of subtlety, and the right course of action for one situation is not going to be right for another one.

To start with, yes, I do know what a sultry/seductive look is, so just telling me to give that kind of look is generally enough.  I know that some photographers specifically like giving a scenario and then capturing the model's reaction, but as I've mentioned, certain scenarios can make me (and other models who I've spoken to) feel uncomfortable, so personally I'd rather just say it outright than give a scenario.

Sometimes people will describe the physical attributes of the look they want, which can also work.  For example: Tip your chin up slightly, lips part slightly, eyes narrow slightly.

Reference photos have also been useful on occasion.  If you have an image you really like and would like to see the model recreate, showing it to them or sending it before the shoot can make a world of difference in helping you be on the same page.

Aside from that, I'm not inherently opposed to the model of giving a scenario for the model to react to, but as I've said, I would proceed with caution with wording for those sexy looks.  There is a lot of subtlety in what feels comfortable vs. uncomfortable in a cue, but generally I think it should be kept in mind that you are asking the model to act a role, and that your words should make that clear.  You don't necessarily need to explicitly say that, but to me saying things like "pretend you see a cute guy at the bar and you want to get his attention" are more clearly about acting a role than "Pretend you're seducing me" or "act like you're seducing your boyfriend."  The latter statements blur the boundaries between acting and reality, and can be inappropriate.

Oh, also, for those of you who are saying you're working with newbie models who aren't yet experienced with creating those facial expressions on cue, you might try having a mirror on hand.  The way that I first practiced my facial expressions was to see how I wanted them to look in the mirror, then memorize the muscle activation that created it.  If they are giving you looks that are nothing like the emotion you want, it is probably because they think they are giving a different look than they actually are.  If you can show them with the mirror what they are doing, they might be able to identify what is off and change it.

PHP-Photography wrote:

Need to take a 10 min break after that so the model can stop laughing.

Actually, I've heard a lot of photographers say they don't want to demonstrate a pose because it would be too comical to try, and I must say I shot with a photographer last night who is probably in his 60's and does not look like a movie star, but he demonstrated poses a few times during the shoot, and it was really easy for me to just copy what he was doing.  It wasn't comical at all, just instructive.  You, of course, don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with, but FYI it's probably not as comical as it seems

Mina Salome wrote:

Actually, I've heard a lot of photographers say they don't want to demonstrate a pose because it would be too comical to try, and I must say I shot with a photographer last night who is probably in his 60's and does not look like a movie star, but he demonstrated poses a few times during the shoot, and it was really easy for me to just copy what he was doing.  It wasn't comical at all, just instructive.  You, of course, don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with, but FYI it's probably not as comical as it seems

Screw that... if I tried to demonstrate anything i'd end up in traction and that ain't funny. You wanna know whats pushing the line?   Showing a newbie girl golfer how to grip a golf club... that girl better be your girlfriend

Mina Salome wrote:
Also, food for thought: a lot of photographers assume that I have a boyfriend.  They mention it in a lot of offhand moments, not just while cueing me for a pose.  Earlier this year, I went through a really rough breakup, and I was down about it for a couple of months.  People assuming that I had a boyfriend when I had just gone through this painful breakup reminded me of how lonely and hurt I felt.  I usually wouldn't bring it up unless directly asked, but it was definitely something I struggled with for a while.  Before y'all grab your pitchforks, I'm not saying it should be a crime to assume a model has a boyfriend, or even that it is inappropriate to say during a shoot.

This is just a thought about human interaction in general...maybe we should avoid making assumptions about others, you don't know what someone's going through when you first meet them, and your words can bring up painful feelings.

Sorry I think you need time to heal.

the lonely photographer wrote:

Philip hasn't been here long enough to ogle...give him time...luckily my models trust me enough to know when I look them over its because I want them to look good...that goes for the fake eyelashes   the contouring makeup, the  choice of bling bling,  sometimes i look at their boobs....and tell them to try another outfit  or get some silicone booby pads to fill out a dress..    we try to get the best looks and help where  nature cheaped out... we call them back for other shoots and they know whats expected next time....no drama... we get an occasional diva   drama queen or prima donna.... I get warned by designers not to deal with certain models, and models that I trust point out the same ones and it seems some have a rep for being troublesome or a pain in the ass.   word gets around..everybody knows everybody here...
and that goes for some of the photographers  I know a few that are total dicks   maybe not towards models  but assholes  when you run into them during events.  its not a perfect world  sorry

all these catalogue amd look book shoots with special posing- I a curious to see this work of yours

Mina Salome wrote:
Also, food for thought: a lot of photographers assume that I have a boyfriend.  They mention it in a lot of offhand moments, not just while cueing me for a pose.  Earlier this year, I went through a really rough breakup, and I was down about it for a couple of months.  People assuming that I had a boyfriend when I had just gone through this painful breakup reminded me of how lonely and hurt I felt.  I usually wouldn't bring it up unless directly asked, but it was definitely something I struggled with for a while.  Before y'all grab your pitchforks, I'm not saying it should be a crime to assume a model has a boyfriend, or even that it is inappropriate to say during a shoot.

This is just a thought about human interaction in general...maybe we should avoid making assumptions about others, you don't know what someone's going through when you first meet them, and your words can bring up painful feelings.

Respect ....I think it best not to ask Models about their personal lives unless they bring it up and want talk about it  (in a healthy way)

I had a situation several years ago where my HMUA Asked the Model about her relationship status ...the Model ended up sobbing In a ball on the floor because she ha just gone through a painful breakup ..

the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot  there were at least 10 models..at that shoot  I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way.  verbal instructions didnt really work.  finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose..  she got mad...  told her to sit down..  shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either   she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein,  In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah  designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her  especially the other photographers...shame

If two models failed to understand your direction then the problem is with your direction, not the models.

But also judging by your other replies, you're just fucking gross and disrespectful of women. /shrug

Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.

Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots.  In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.

I spoke about this with some other models, and realized that some of the people who say these things may be doing so because no one has ever spoken up to tell them not to.  Some models may be ok with the request, but others are likely uncomfortable and not speaking up.  Photoshoots move fast, and sometimes it can be hard to speak up about quick things that happen.  There have definitely been moments where it was easier just to give a quick sultry look and move on.

So, while we're all here and not in a photoshoot, I'll say this: please don't use cues like that.  Experienced models know how to give a sultry look, they don't need you to give them a scenario to achieve the look.  I'm on friendly personal terms with many of the photographers who I shoot with, but it doesn't mean that I want my sex life to come up while we are shooting.  I'm at a shoot in a professional context.  It's not appropriate to as a woman at an office job about her sex life, and it's not appropriate to ask models about it either.  Some models may be extremely open and forthcoming about personal details, but for others, these things are private.  Please don't make assumptions that models will feel comfortable if you bring it up.

Mina, that makes perfect sense.

One way I avoid that is to develop a theme for a shoot and share that with the model.  Sometimes the theme is simple, such as "Square Summer".  Here's how I communicated it with the model:  "You're carefree, self-composed.  Intelligent.  It's summer clothes, summer fashions.  It's Fashion Week in the Square.  You're it, and all eyes are on you.  Moreso, we're making photos to put you in the pages of Vogue.  It's all steps along that path.  Today, Model Mayhem.  Tomorrow, the September Issue of Vogue."  I created a mood board I shared with her, did a location scouting shoot and shared those photos with her.  We emailed back and forth.  She shared photos of outfits she thought would work.  Then we shot.  She knew what we were shooting, and she brought her emotions to the shoot.  She knew it wasn't for Vogue, but why not imagine it was?

On one hand, it was fun!  It was a great time, she played dress up, I played photographer.  On the other hand, I had my job to do, to take pictures and make adjustments to them.  She had her job to do, to be a model, to pose, to bring whatever she needed to herself to create looks consistent with the theme of the shoot.  We collaborated, and at the same time we retained control over our respective domains, each being a professional.

I don't want her looking at me like she would her boyfriend.  She's a model, and I want her to create an appropriate look for the camera.  Period.  I may be physically repulsive to her!  Even if I'm not, it's her job to bring what's needed to the shoot.  If she's thinking of her boyfriend, fine.  I don't need to know.  Likewise, this is just another person in front of the camera.  My job is to make the photos I need to make.  My job relates to light, composition, depth of field effects, et al.  She may be attractive, usually quite so, but it doesn't matter.  I'm there to get a picture.  Under the best circumstances, we develop a nice rapport during the shoot, and create something together that neither of us could do alone.

Over the last two years, I've created a theme for every shoot proposal I've made.  For those cases where the model responds that she is interested in working with me, the theme typically develops further and is refined.  In one shoot I created an actual story, and we created this fun photoshoot, complete with a little printed magazine-like publication and a photo montage video.  Ultimately it represents more work for the model and for me.  It isn't just, "Hey, let's shoot!", it's "Here's a theme I'd like to shoot."  I think however it keeps the work fresh, professional, and fun.

the lonely photographer wrote:

yeah probably   maybe we can start a new forum  called "the MANCAVE"

I like that idea!  We could ask the site to make it for male photographers only and lock it down so you'd need the high sign and a secret decoder ring to gain access.  We could sit around, smoke virtual cigars and drink brandy by the gallon while critiquing everyone's work and talking smack about them.  The best part is no one would know what we're talking about except us - the male photographers.  Some would claim that's sexist but does the site already have a feature similar to that?

Garry k wrote:

all these catalogue amd look book shoots with special posing- I a curious to see this work of yours

I turned those over to the designers   eventually I'll have time to do my own shoots...so you'll have to wait  i don't want to get into issues   with the owners.. no i'm not bullshitting..

the lonely photographer wrote:
it never occurred to you someone put up big bucks for that sessions and needed a certain look that the usual poses won't do?  Time is money  maybe the stylist or designer should have moved her into position... she gets paid to be a mannequin,
NObody is abusing her or saying anything sexual or anything like that, simply helping her get in the perfect position for the shot. Maybe you have your rules in your head about how shoots should go,   fine I respect that  if a model sucks  we move to the next one, there are thousands of them waiting in line. Verbal instructions  don't always work    Its quicker to show them.  She never got asked back . Most of the models I've shot for the look books are ones I requested, I know them from the runway shows I worked. None have ever complained or freaked when i posed them.  I guess it the company I keep...

I have never been on a shoot that is so pressed for time that there is not enough time to direct a model. It is utter bullshit to suggest that 'big buck' sessions alter those rules. Your supposition that 'verbal instructions don't always work' sounds more like a limitation you have in directing. Don't project that on professional shoots. It is the very opposite.

Dan Howell wrote:
Your supposition that 'verbal instructions don't always work' sounds more like a limitation you have in directing. Don't project that on professional shoots. It is the very opposite.

I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".

It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

Dan Howell wrote:
Your supposition that 'verbal instructions don't always work' sounds more like a limitation you have in directing. Don't project that on professional shoots. It is the very opposite.

Philip Brown wrote:
I note that you are posting from "new york, new york".
It is not unreasonable to think that the pool of available models where you are, is a lot more talented and better able to follow direction, than many other places.

Location has nothing to do with Lonely Photographers need to handle models, MANY photographers work with models all over the US & abroad & have no need to be posing them like puppets.
MANY of my clients have never been in front of a camera before, I have no need to physically adjust their hands & feet while on set.... 

Making excuses like "big bucks" does not fly.

He needs to learn how to direct people better.