Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.
Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots. In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.
I spoke about this with some other models, and realized that some of the people who say these things may be doing so because no one has ever spoken up to tell them not to. Some models may be ok with the request, but others are likely uncomfortable and not speaking up. Photoshoots move fast, and sometimes it can be hard to speak up about quick things that happen. There have definitely been moments where it was easier just to give a quick sultry look and move on.
So, while we're all here and not in a photoshoot, I'll say this: please don't use cues like that. Experienced models know how to give a sultry look, they don't need you to give them a scenario to achieve the look. I'm on friendly personal terms with many of the photographers who I shoot with, but it doesn't mean that I want my sex life to come up while we are shooting. I'm at a shoot in a professional context. It's not appropriate to as a woman at an office job about her sex life, and it's not appropriate to ask models about it either. Some models may be extremely open and forthcoming about personal details, but for others, these things are private. Please don't make assumptions that models will feel comfortable if you bring it up.
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 2342
Beverly Hills, California, US
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot there were at least 10 models..at that shoot I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way. verbal instructions didnt really work. finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose.. she got mad... told her to sit down.. shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame
Photographer
TouchofEleganceStudios
Posts: 5481
Vallejo, California, US
the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot there were at least 10 models..at that shoot I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way. verbal instructions didnt really work. finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose.. she got mad... told her to sit down.. shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame This is exactly why the battle of escorts "Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame". This is my take on it. You are a model, if you do lingerie, topless or nudes especially you should be old enough and mature enough to act on your own. If you are doing a shoot with a photographer and you are already in lingerie he says to you "How about some topless pics. Something sexier, more naughty, like your being touched intimately by your boyfriend." He pauses for a moment then offers to help you get into the mood. If I really need to tell you what you should be doing at this point in a shoot you should get out of modeling. This is a no brainer. It doesn't matter if you are standing there in bra and panties grab your things and leave. Do not stop. Do not let him try to explain. Leave. Just leave. You do not need an escort, a boyfriend, a female friend, your momma or anyone else to tell you. If it is 1 photographer or 10 photographers, same thing leave. Just leave.
I have been at this for more than 16 years. In all of that time I have allowed escorts about a dozen times. Eleven of those turned out to be a huge mistake. Only one time did it help and I would invite him again. He helped carry things, helped with lighting, helped keep onlookers away. And kept a distance while shooting. Once a homeless man was creeped down watching. That made her nervous. I asked her boyfriend to ask him to leave but before that said to her "He will never see you again. Give him something to remember." She flashed him her boobs. Then her boyfriend as he chuckled told the man "You got your peek now go away." The best part of the shoot was that was the only time that she wasn't focused 100% on the shoot.
Model
Model Mayhem
Posts: 7681
El Segundo, California, US
the lonely photographer wrote:
I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way. verbal instructions didnt really work. finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose.. she got mad... Lot's of people, not just models, don't like being touched by strangers, especially in work environments. Did you even ask for permission before touching her? If not, her reaction sounds perfectly reasonable.
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. Many pro models have a list of what they do and don't shoot in their booking policies. I certainly do, but I can't cover every minute circumstance that will come up. That's where communication comes in, which is part of the reason I'm posting here.
Also when you say "a model like that," do you mean a model like me? Because I'm not really clear about what your anecdote about your fashion shoot has to do with the topic that I originally posted about.
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Model Mayhem wrote:
Lot's of people, not just models, don't like being touched by strangers, especially in work environments. Did you even ask for permission before touching her? If not, her reaction sounds perfectly reasonable. This. I can't believe this is already turning into the same tired conversation about hands-on adjustments and escorts that we've already been having for years on this site, but it appears that that's just where it's going so...just because someone is modeling for you does not mean they have to do everything that you want them to do. They always have veto power if they feel uncomfortable. Discomfort with hands-on adjustments has nothing to do with Harvey Weinstein (WTF?), it's about not wanting a near stranger to come into the model's personal space and start putting his hands all over her. It doesn't have to be about sexual touch, most models just don't want to be touched at all and if they say "no" to your attempt to manually pose them, you need to be respectful.
Photographer
Carle Photo
Posts: 475
New Orleans, Louisiana, US
the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot there were at least 10 models..at that shoot I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way. verbal instructions didnt really work. finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose.. she got mad... told her to sit down.. shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame Absolutely not.
There is no need to be touching the models on a fashion shoot.
It doesn't matter how many people are on set, having crew watch you, does't allow you to just grab people & pose them.
No professional art school ever allows touching of the models, not nude, not clothed, so who is teaching these guys this is ok?
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
TouchofEleganceStudios wrote:
This is my take on it. You are a model, if you do lingerie, topless or nudes especially you should be old enough and mature enough to act on your own. If you are doing a shoot with a photographer and you are already in lingerie he says to you "How about some topless pics. Something sexier, more naughty, like your being touched intimately by your boyfriend." He pauses for a moment then offers to help you get into the mood. If I really need to tell you what you should be doing at this point in a shoot you should get out of modeling. This is a no brainer. It doesn't matter if you are standing there in bra and panties grab your things and leave. Do not stop. Do not let him try to explain. Leave. Just leave. This is a pretty extreme version of what I was talking about, which has never happened to me. Certainly, there are predatory photographers out there who clearly cross the line by trying to take advantage of the situation. But they are not the majority...what are far more common are comments that are not predatory, not intending to make the model uncomfortable, but still manage to make the shoot awkward.
To be clear, that kind of comment bringing up my romantic/sex life is not something that comes up all the time, I certainly don't have to deal with it as often as I have to deal with people trying to give me unwanted hands-on adjustments, but it does come up with some regularity. It's tricky to happen because it happens fast, and goes away just as quickly. If the photographer is actually creeping me out, I will absolutely say something, but more often I think this comment comes from a lack of awareness of how it could affect me. Often it comes from someone who is perfectly respectful for the entire duration of the shoot, who works with models regularly, and who clearly wants me to feel comfortable and at ease during the shoot.
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 2342
Beverly Hills, California, US
out of hundreds of models I've shot I guess there will be the one...
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13574
Washington, Utah, US
Mina Salome wrote:
Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like ...... Most photographers would ask a model to look at the camera, not the photographer. On behalf of photographers everywhere, I'd like to apologize that you would even hear mention of a photographer who would ask a model to look at them rather than the camera. How unprofessional.
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 2342
Beverly Hills, California, US
Ionalynn wrote:
Absolutely not.
There is no need to be touching the models on a fashion shoot.
It doesn't matter how many people are on set, having crew watch you, does't allow you to just grab people & pose them.
No professional art school ever allows touching of the models, not nude, not clothed, so who is teaching these guys this is ok? it never occurred to you someone put up big bucks for that sessions and needed a certain look that the usual poses won't do? Time is money maybe the stylist or designer should have moved her into position... she gets paid to be a mannequin,
NObody is abusing her or saying anything sexual or anything like that, simply helping her get in the perfect position for the shot. Maybe you have your rules in your head about how shoots should go, fine I respect that if a model sucks we move to the next one, there are thousands of them waiting in line. Verbal instructions don't always work Its quicker to show them. She never got asked back . Most of the models I've shot for the look books are ones I requested, I know them from the runway shows I worked. None have ever complained or freaked when i posed them. I guess it the company I keep...
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 2342
Beverly Hills, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Most photographers would ask a model to look at the camera, not the photographer. On behalf of photographers everywhere, I'd like to apologize that you would even hear mention of a photographer who would ask a model to look at them rather than the camera. How unprofessional. I don't need the model to look at me like..whatever... I shoot clothing high end clothing nobody gives a rip if the model gives me a #@$ me look . Like I said ...I guess its the company I keep.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13574
Washington, Utah, US
the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.... That's probably not a bad idea. According to the EEOC, The following all constitute sexual harassment if they are unwelcome, so knowing what any particular model may or may not welcome is key:
Touching the person's body, hair or clothing
Hanging around a person
Looking a person up and down
Facial expressions
Standing close to another person
One problem in asking models to make a list, is that what one may or may not welcome can change from person to person.
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Most photographers would ask a model to look at the camera, not the photographer. On behalf of photographers everywhere, I'd like to apologize that you would even hear mention of a photographer who would ask a model to look at them rather than the camera. How unprofessional. The point is more about attempting to bring my personal life into the shoot in a way that feels uncomfortable, but thanks. They might not actually have said "look at me," I don't totally remember. That wasn't the part that felt awkward for me.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13574
Washington, Utah, US
Mina Salome wrote:
The point is more about attempting to bring my personal life into the shoot in a way that feels uncomfortable, but thanks. They might not actually have said "look at me," I don't totally remember. That wasn't the part that felt awkward for me. I don't mean to make light of any uncomfortable situation you were in, and I totally get your point about unsolicited advice tendered by photographers in the model forum. I'm not a model and that rubs me the wrong way.
Photographer
Todd Meredith
Posts: 728
Fayetteville, North Carolina, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
I don't mean to make light of any uncomfortable situation you were in, and I totally get your point about unsolicited advice tendered by photographers in the model forum. I'm not a model and that rubs me the wrong way. I thought we solved this issue months ago. This isn't the model's forum, it's a forum on modeling - as the tag line says. The model's forum is a secret forum hope only to female models and hidden from everyone else's view. I'm not sure but I believe membership there also requires a secret handshake and knock to get in.
Photographer
the lonely photographer
Posts: 2342
Beverly Hills, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
That's probably not a bad idea. According to the EEOC, The following all constitute sexual harassment if they are unwelcome, so knowing what any particular model may or may not welcome is key:
Touching the person's body, hair or clothing
Hanging around a person
Looking a person up and down
Facial expressions
Standing close to another person
One problem in asking models to make a list, is that what one may or may not welcome can change from person to person.
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf geezus... so now I get sued cause I'm looking at the model from head to toe,,,great
hanging around a person thats a good one...
i can't whack the multi legged creature thats crawling on the models hair?
Facial expressions the model hates my ugly looks?
standing close? allright I'll use a 1000 mm telephoto lens...
now i know why guys go shoot landscapes
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
I don't mean to make light of any uncomfortable situation you were in, and I totally get your point about unsolicited advice tendered by photographers in the model forum. I'm not a model and that rubs me the wrong way. It's all good! I didn't think you were making light of it, I just thought you may have interpreted what I was saying as a slightly different, but much more serious situation where the photographer is trying to make advances towards the model. I've been fortunate that I haven't had an issue with that, but others have and it's a big deal when it happens.
Part of the reason I decided to post about this is that it's kind of a smaller issue, but sometimes smaller issues get no attention at all, and they can continue for a long time because there's no discussion or awareness of their existence.
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 10064
Santa Barbara, California, US
Sounds like a failure in common sense and sense of respect and space... I don't know, blame their parents..
Photographer
Black Z Eddie
Posts: 1903
San Jacinto, California, US
Mina Salome wrote:
Hey all, since this forum has become largely about photographers giving advice to models on how to behave, I figured I'd give some friendly advice of my own.
Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots. In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.
I spoke about this with some other models, and realized that some of the people who say these things may be doing so because no one has ever spoken up to tell them not to. Some models may be ok with the request, but others are likely uncomfortable and not speaking up. Photoshoots move fast, and sometimes it can be hard to speak up about quick things that happen. There have definitely been moments where it was easier just to give a quick sultry look and move on.
So, while we're all here and not in a photoshoot, I'll say this: please don't use cues like that. Experienced models know how to give a sultry look, they don't need you to give them a scenario to achieve the look. I'm on friendly personal terms with many of the photographers who I shoot with, but it doesn't mean that I want my sex life to come up while we are shooting. I'm at a shoot in a professional context. It's not appropriate to as a woman at an office job about her sex life, and it's not appropriate to ask models about it either. Some models may be extremely open and forthcoming about personal details, but for others, these things are private. Please don't make assumptions that models will feel comfortable if you bring it up. Unfortunately, I doubt the photographers that do those things will take heed. They're usually full of themselves and they want to feel special. "I'm internationally published." "I can get you published." "I can get you signed." "I have expensive-ass gear and I know people that knows people, that consequently knows people."
Photographer
Spicy Peach Photography
Posts: 36
Macon, Georgia, US
Ionalynn wrote:
Absolutely not.
There is no need to be touching the models on a fashion shoot.
It doesn't matter how many people are on set, having crew watch you, does't allow you to just grab people & pose them.
No professional art school ever allows touching of the models, not nude, not clothed, so who is teaching these guys this is ok? I just don't get it. My wife is a nurse of 25 years and works as my assistant. I work with many inexperienced models as well as clients who have never posed in front of a camera. Always, always, always, my wife/assistant asks permission to touch a model, mover hair, move clothes, move body parts when I'm giving direction and the model is having a hard time setting a pose that I want. And that is for each and every direction given, not just once and then assuming it's ok through the entire shoot. Yes we are all professionals, or at least in my case trying to be one, but to assume that a photographer has some kind of right to exceed personal space boundaries just seems incorrect to me. And from my experience, the experienced models who I have had the pleasure to work with seem to know pretty well how to pose and take direction.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13574
Washington, Utah, US
Ionalynn wrote:
Absolutely not.
There is no need to be touching the models on a fashion shoot.
It doesn't matter how many people are on set, having crew watch you, does't allow you to just grab people & pose them.
No professional art school ever allows touching of the models, not nude, not clothed, so who is teaching these guys this is ok? I think there’s a big difference between asking a model if it’s okay to adjust something she can’t, and just grabbing someone.
Most MM shoots have nothing to do with professional art schools or professional fashion shoots. The models I’ve worked with seem to be okay with what makes sense in the situation, always asking without assuming. I think basic communication makes most of these things non issues.
Despite the increasing anti-touch attitude, I plan to continue to shake a model’s hand when we meet. Call me old fashioned, but I think it’s just polite. She can always use the sanitizer in my restroom if she’s concerned.
Photographer
Black Z Eddie
Posts: 1903
San Jacinto, California, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Despite the increasing anti-touch attitude, I plan to continue to shake a model’s hand when we meet. Call me old fashioned, but I think it’s just polite. She can always use the sanitizer in my restroom if she’s concerned. There's a big difference between reaching out to shake hands vs just touching a model to adjust her position. It's not even the same thing.
Photographer
Deep Visions
Posts: 323
Oceanside, California, US
Mina Salome wrote:
Recently, I saw someone mention photographers giving the cue "look at me like you would your boyfriend," or "try to seduce me" during shoots. In the face of more serious things that bother me during shoots, like trying to give me a hands-on adjustment without asking, this cue is less urgent to handle, but it still negatively affects myself and many other models.
So, while we're all here and not in a photoshoot, I'll say this: please don't use cues like that. While I have never told a model anything like that, I've said other offbeat stuff to try & get them to laugh for certain shots. Usually the phrase "pretend I just farted" seems to always do the trick
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8142
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
TouchofEleganceStudios wrote:
This is exactly why the battle of escorts "Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame". This is my take on it. You are a model, if you do lingerie, topless or nudes especially you should be old enough and mature enough to act on your own. If you are doing a shoot with a photographer and you are already in lingerie he says to you "How about some topless pics. Something sexier, more naughty, like your being touched intimately by your boyfriend." He pauses for a moment then offers to help you get into the mood. If I really need to tell you what you should be doing at this point in a shoot you should get out of modeling. This is a no brainer. It doesn't matter if you are standing there in bra and panties grab your things and leave. Do not stop. Do not let him try to explain. Leave. Just leave. You do not need an escort, a boyfriend, a female friend, your momma or anyone else to tell you. If it is 1 photographer or 10 photographers, same thing leave. Just leave. Exactly. If I were ever on a shoot and heard a photographer say something like, "look at me like you would your boyfriend" or "try to seduce me" I would personally walk up, smack him in the back of the head, and call him a fucking retard right to his face. I've been on shoots with some horrible GWCs before where I've called them out right to their face before. It's amazing just how stupid some of these folks can be.
Photographer
Photo Art by LJ
Posts: 224
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Having done close to maybe 20 shoots with models over this first year of working with models, I've never touched a model unless she first requested it (usually something in her hair she couldn't see).
I've never opposed having an escort along to a shoot, either.
I've heard quite a few stories from MUAs and models about bad shoots they've been on... from photographers saying inappropriate sexual things while on a shoot, to being drunk.
Unfortunately, that seems to just be the way some are. Many of us aim for professionalism, but for those who don't, I think it's unlikely they are going to want to change. I guess that's what the hidden model forums are for? To try to help models avoid the creeps?
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I totally agree with the OPs initial post
Sounds kind of creepy that a photographer would ask such a thing
gotta warn you about using the word sultry with Models who speak English as.a second language and may not have mastered all the nuances of similar sounding
words
I learned rhat lesson the hard way-backstage with a Chinese Model before a fashion show
"You call me what?!! " was her angered response to my request that she give me a sultry expression
😕
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30211
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
the lonely photographer wrote:
maybe its time to for these models to print up a list of things they won't do don't like to do and other no no's before they get hired.
I ran into a model like that. a fashion shoot there were at least 10 models..at that shoot I needed her in a certain position with hips torso and hands a certain way. verbal instructions didnt really work. finally I tried to manipulate her into that pose.. she got mad... told her to sit down.. shot the next model in line...told her the same look... didnt really work either she said show me.. so i moved her hands and fingers, placed them on her hip. bent her torso... etc..got the shot...finished the catalog shoot
Too bad some models feel every guy is a harvey weinstein, In a room full of people including hair stylists MUah designers all watching... the group was uncomfortable working with her especially the other photographers...shame Maybe try demonstrating the pose or showing them a photo
Rather than getting physical with them
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Deep Visions wrote:
While I have never told a model anything like that, I've said other offbeat stuff to try & get them to laugh for certain shots. Usually the phrase "pretend I just farted" seems to always do the trick Lol, I think things like that are perfectly appropriate. I've had a couple of photographers ask if they could tickle me to get a genuine laugh. I said, "no, but you are welcome to tell me a joke."
Model
Mina Salome
Posts: 214
Los Angeles, California, US
Black Z Eddie wrote:
Unfortunately, I doubt the photographers that do those things will take heed. They're usually full of themselves and they want to feel special. "I'm internationally published." "I can get you published." "I can get you signed." "I have expensive-ass gear and I know people that knows people, that consequently knows people." Actually, the people who said that to me weren't like that at all. I didn't feel that they were full of themselves, just that they were completely unaware of the fact that I don't want my private life dragged into a professional setting, or at least unaware that their words were having that effect. Other than that line which bugs me, they treated me with respect and professionalism. So, though I don't know that anyone will learn anything from this (especially since most of the people here are currently talking about whether or not it's ok to give hands-on adjustments to models), I think it's an important conversation to have.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Abbitt Photography wrote:
According to the EEOC, The following all constitute sexual harassment if they are unwelcome, so knowing what any particular model may or may not welcome is key:
Looking a person up and down I hope it's ok to do this thru viewfinder, I need to check that both ears and all toes and fingers are inside the frame.
Photographer
PHP-Photography
Posts: 1390
Vaasa, Ostrobothnia, Finland
Garry k wrote:
Maybe try demonstrating the pose Need to take a 10 min break after that so the model can stop laughing.
Photographer
Randy Dixon
Posts: 77
Brownsville, Texas, US
I think a lot of guys are assholes. I think some of the replies here are pretty assholeish, but I'm a little confused about what the OP is complaining about. A photographer, who is acting professionally, tells her to look at him like she is going to seduce him, and that is prying into her personal life? I don't get that. I've told models too look wistful, and they ask me what that is, so I tell them to look like they are remembering a pleasant memory. I say sultry, they ask what that is, I say, look like you are going to seduce somebody. I don't see the problem.
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 3097
Torrance, California, US
I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and (Going back to the original topic) say that I believe the model's perception of things and the photographer's perception might be completely different.
Over the years that I've been shooting, I've come across several models that weren't good at emoting. They were beautiful and had nice figures, but the expression on their face while shooting looked too "posed". In my opinion, modeling is very much like acting. To create the mood and the expression I want for the photo, I've found it often helps to give the model suggestions on what frame of mind they should be in.
If I say, "Imagine you're at a bar and see a guy across the room that you find attractive. Now tell him with your eyes you want to get his attention", and the model does exactly that, then the muscles in her face will naturally adjust to match what's going on in her mind. Same thing happens if I tell them model, "Imagine you're a powerful woman and nothing can stand in your way."
As a photographer, I have a goal in mind...it's to get the shots I've imagined in my head to appear the same way in a photograph. Some models I've worked with were amazing at conveying emotions and posing without any guidance from me at all. Others THOUGHT they were giving good expressions, but the images felt more like the model was trying to mimic a photo she saw in a magazine and really liked.
Look at just about any model or photographer's earliest work. Almost every single one of us had that one shot where we tried to create an image that was "deep", or "contemplative". You know the one...where the model is looking down toward the ground and their head is turned slightly to the right or left (Basically, "I'm sad and I'm carrying the weight of the world...I don't know how I'll go on."). Most of the time the photo looked anything but "deep", and instead came across as amateur.
So, you might think there's an ulterior motive behind the request. I say a good photographer is like a good director on a movie set; sometimes, he has to get into your head to help bring out the actress in you. Also, you as the model cannot see what I, as the photographer, am seeing in my camera's viewfinder. I KNOW what a good photo looks like, and I know what a bad one looks like. If you (generally speaking) are not hitting the mark, then it's incumbent on my to help you get there. When we work together, we create good images.
Model
Alexandra Vincent
Posts: 308
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Here is why I always found it awkward when people said, "Look at me like you'd look at your boyfriend" or "Like your man just walked through the door and you have to have him."
These people's ideas about what that "should" look like is based on cliches, female stereotypes, subjective and doesn't acknowledge that every person's way of emoting in real life is different. The way I personally interact with my partner is through WORDS. There was certainly a time in my life when I flirted with people I wanted to meet - but it was always through approaching them and initiating conversation. I never just "gave them a look." That's not how we all work in the real world. Every "look" I've ever given during a shoot was fabricated to mimic how society stereotypes perceived a facial expression of sex appeal. Because when I want intimacy with my partner, I ask for it verbally. You don't just stand next to the person you are attracted to and give them odd looks as a means of seduction. That would probably scare them away. Facial expressiveness also varies by culture, and there is no universal sex appeal expression - at least not in real life.
I just find the whole "look at me like you'd look at your boyfriend" to be completely unrealistic, and presumptuous. Everyone can learn to mindfully emote through facial muscle control. Yet, in the real world (the sexy scene we are expected to conjure in this particular scenario), we all communicate with our partners in vastly different ways. Facial expression may not even play a part in our real life communication styles.
Model
Alexandra Vincent
Posts: 308
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
. ...If I say, "Imagine you're at a bar and see a guy across the room that you find attractive. Now tell him with your eyes you want to get his attention", and the model does exactly that, then the muscles in her face will naturally adjust to match what's going on in her mind... Back when I used to actually do things like approach attractive people at bars, I walked up to them, said hello and offered to buy us a round. Standing over in the corner staring at someone might make the hair on the back of their neck stand up, but it isn't likely to get you a date with them.
My main point being - cueing in this way does not make logical sense for people who communicate in different ways. For me, this cue is confusing, because I would not approach someone with a look, but with words.
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 3097
Torrance, California, US
Alexandra Vincent wrote:
Back when I used to actually do things like approach attractive people at bars, I walked up to them, said hello and offered to buy us a round. Standing over in the corner staring at someone might make the hair on the back of their neck stand up, but it isn't likely to get you a date with them.
My main point being - cueing in this way does not make logical sense for people who communicate in different ways. For me, this cue is confusing, because I would not approach someone with a look, but with words. Photographs (besides photojournalism) are a work of fiction. Movies (besides...most...documentaries) are also a work of fiction. If I want a photograph to tell a story, then I have to convey it literally in a fraction of a second. Seduction, sorrow, joy, ectasy, anger, fear, etc simply HAVE to be over-exaggerated to make that happen; otherwise, it's a lifeless image.
Perhaps YOU don't meet guys with a glance, but a photo of you offering to buy a guy a beer in some dive bar doesn't sound too visually appealing to those who want to look at art or even an aesthetically pleasing photo. As a model, youre playing a character; just like an actress does. You could be so broke you don't know how you're going to pay next month's rent, but if a fashion photographer puts you in diamonds and an evening gown, then I'd bet you'd act like you're living the high life to create that mood for the photo.
Our bodies have natural, subconscious physiological reactions to certain stimuli. When we find someone attractive, our pupils dilate, our pulse quickens, and our skin flushes. We look at the person longer and our eyes tend to remain fixed on each other for several seconds longer than someone we're not interested in. Those fragments of time are what we're trying to recreate. I think some of you are reading into it way too much.
Photographer
FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 6597
Uniontown, Pennsylvania, US
Conveying emotion through facial expression has to be the most difficult challenge a Model encounters. TBH I've only ever encountered one Model to date who could emote naturally, She wasn't even a Model, She was a dancer in a club and knew how to pull the tips. My suggestion was that I had a pocket full of Cash and it was Her job to earn it, She killed. 
The set or theme of the shoot should indicate to an experienced Model what type of look is to be expected.
Model
Alexandra Vincent
Posts: 308
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Photographs (besides photojournalism) are a work of fiction. Movies (besides...most...documentaries) are also a work of fiction. If I want a photograph to tell a story, then I want have to convey it literally in a fraction of a second. Seduction, sorrow, joy, ectasy, anger, fear, etc simply HAVE to be over-exaggerated to make that happen; otherwise, it's a lifeless image.
Perhaps YOU don't meet guys with a glance, but a photo of you offering to buy a guy a beer in some dive bar doesn't sound too visually appealing to those who want to look at art or even an aesthetically pleasing photo. As a model, youre playing a character; just like an actress does. You could be so broke you don't know how you're going to pay next month's rent, but if a fashion photographer puts you in diamonds and an evening gown, then I'd bet you'd act like you're living the high life to create that mood for the photo.
Our bodies have natural, subconscious physiological reactions to certain stimuli. When we find someone attractive, our pupils dilate, our pulse quickens, and our skin flushes. We look at the person longer and our eyes tend to remain fixed on each other for several seconds longer than someone we're not interested in. Those fragments of time are what we're trying to recreate. I think some of you are reading into it way too much. I believe you missed my point.
The photographer providing the cues may perceive an expression as meaning something different to him than it does to the subject. Humans misinterpret others' faces and body language all the time. Facial expressions and body language have deep bias towards what culture one grew up in, how they formed their communication skills, etc. For some people, a facial expression they show with their lover may be very similar to a loving expression they show with their children. For others, they may have little to no visible facial expression in relation to emotional stimuli of other people.
This is so individualized - and so heavily based in cultural and gender stereotypes - that telling someone to "look at me like you want to seduce me" doesn't really mean anything at all. What they are actually saying is, "Read my mind and express back to me how you think I perceive seduction, based on my own upbringing, gender and background."
With that being said, I'd be interested to talk to someone who can make their own pupils dialate on command, without either drugs or having a flashlight shown into the pupils. I can cry on command, complete with tears - among other assorted things - but pupil dialation...that would be an impressive skill. Out of the list of characteristics you noted as indicative of attraction, the only ones that would possibly be obvious in a photo would be pupil dilation and (possibly) flushing. Flushes are frequently created artificially with makeup, which is more observable than the subtle natural flush one would get from excitement. You can also do a few jumping jacks and get a nice flush, so let's assume the flush is artificial. So, in this situation, all the model could actually do to replicate that look would be to just provide eye contact. Perhaps their pupils would dialate in response to light in the room.
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