Bruce Talbot wrote:

Oh puh-leeze, a D70 is soooo last year. 

I'll use the good stuff and break out my Etch-a-Sketch. Say now, ya won't mind having a pointy head eh? Making circles on that thing is a b-i-t-c-h!

......... and you will be getting nekkid ..........riiiiyeeeeet?

bt

(( this just in - all my assistants are insisting on the use of slingshots and 10' poles ))

Should I wax?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Here's something to consider.  Lets assume the Blacks make up about 14% of
the population.  Of that number lets say 8% are female and of that number lets
say of modeling age for fashion modeling lets say 5%.  Of that number lets say
3% are intrested and want to model.  So as a group Black women and I didn't
use Black men would be around 3% of the modeling population.  3% is still a very
large number but I bet if you look at magazines like W, Vogue, Elle and others that
3% is closer to about at least 10% of the women shown in them.  We can quibble
about someones racial background in some of the roto fashion ads like Kohls and
Sears but these models are not White in many cases.  Although I have noticed
that many stores favor lighter skinned Blacks.  I am also not saying that as a
nation there can't be improvement but based on the numbers I'd say we do work
and are seen in many of the national publications in numbers that reflect our
numbers in the general population.

Well Tony, now that you put it into raw numbers! LOL It does seem the data shows that it's NOT likely the problem has anything to do with few black women being willing or not willing to shoot nudes.  It's a matter of the number of black women available to shoot!

DigitalCMH wrote:
You didn't get it?  You mentioned in your stats that there were 6 Black models.  You didn't stop there.  You had to point out that they were light skinned.  WTF does that matter?  Does that make them less Black?  YOU pointed out that they are light skinned, why would you do that?  How important is their color shade?  Out of the white models, did you indicate which ones are tanned and not?  How about the Asians?  They can be pretty diverse in their skin tones.  I'm guessing that you were trying to make a point and if not, why mention it at all?

So Maybe , just maybe part of the reluctance of truely "Black "Women to be photographed clothed . topless , or nude is that because  of prevailing ( white ) driven social attitudes in the Publishing World -these women  do not see equal opportunity to gain from such ... Moving away from the  Fashion /Vogue  example- how about ( cruder )  Nude /Playboy example - its not like we've ever seen Hugh Hefner cavorting with Black Bunnies .......The playing field  is unequal in that industry as well....

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Here's something to consider.  Lets assume the Blacks make up about 14% of
the population.  Of that number lets say 8% are female and of that number lets
say of modeling age for fashion modeling lets say 5%.  Of that number lets say
3% are intrested and want to model.  So as a group Black women and I didn't
use Black men would be around 3% of the modeling population.  3% is still a very
large number but I bet if you look at magazines like W, Vogue, Elle and others that
3% is closer to about at least 10% of the women shown in them.  We can quibble
about someones racial background in some of the roto fashion ads like Kohls and
Sears but these models are not White in many cases.  Although I have noticed
that many stores favor lighter skinned Blacks.  I am also not saying that as a
nation there can't be improvement but based on the numbers I'd say we do work
and are seen in many of the national publications in numbers that reflect our
numbers in the general population.

I was never very good at Math /satatistics but seems to me that your breakdown is flawed

If "Blacks "comprise  14 percent  of the general population , shouldnt they also compromise 14 percent of  the modelling population -assuming there is  proportional  represention and given the provision that all other demographiic factors are similar between blacks and non blacks ( ie gender balance , age distribution etc )

And therefor when you see  6 "black "models /celebs  in an  issue of Vogue compared to over 300 white- the actual published representation of black models  falls to around 2% when it really should be that 14%

Tony Lawrence wrote:
In general some Black women are conservative and are very concerned with
family, etc. but lots of Black women are OK with nudes.  Many may think about
women like Vanessa Williams the first Black Ms. America and while it in many ways
helped her it was a huge embarrassment at first.  In cities with large Black populations nudes aren't a problem but in small towns where everybody knows your
business it might be.  Again for the record I suspect the OP started this thread
just as a conversation starter because based on the style and talent he shows
I wouldn't think he had a problem getting Black models to pose nude.

Do you think to thsi day Ms Williams views those photos as helping her , and how so ?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Here's something to consider.  Lets assume the Blacks make up about 14% of
the population.  Of that number lets say 8% are female and of that number lets
say of modeling age for fashion modeling lets say 5%.  Of that number lets say
3% are intrested and want to model.  So as a group Black women and I didn't
use Black men would be around 3% of the modeling population.  3% is still a very
large number but I bet if you look at magazines like W, Vogue, Elle and others that
3% is closer to about at least 10% of the women shown in them.  We can quibble
about someones racial background in some of the roto fashion ads like Kohls and
Sears but these models are not White in many cases.  Although I have noticed
that many stores favor lighter skinned Blacks.  I am also not saying that as a
nation there can't be improvement but based on the numbers I'd say we do work
and are seen in many of the national publications in numbers that reflect our
numbers in the general population.

Uh, yeah, this math is totally wrong.

Take a city population of 1,000,000. If 14% of those people are Black, that's 140,000 people. If half of those 140,000 are women, that's 70,000 (he didn't mean to take 5% from the 8%, that's where this starts to get screwed up). If half of that 70,000 is of modeling age, that's 35,000, and if 3% are interested and want to model, that's 1,050 women.

Apply this same formula to 100% of the population.

1,050 Black women of the total modeling population (7,500): Wow! 14%

Unfortunately, here are the real numbers:

http://www.newmodels.com/race.html

Garry k wrote:
I was never very good at Math /satatistics but seems to me that your breakdown is flawed

If "Blacks "comprise  14 percent  of the general population , shouldnt they also compromise 14 percent of  the modelling population -assuming there is  proportional  represention and given the provision that all other demographiic factors are similar between blacks and non blacks ( ie gender balance , age distribution etc )

And therefor when you see  6 "black "models /celebs  in an  issue of Vogue compared to over 300 white- the actual published representation of black models  falls to around 2% when it really should be that 14%

Gary K (referring to the original "statistics" of Tony Lawrence) is totally right.

lotusphoto wrote:

maybe it's because at some level models are supposed to make you buy the clohes they are wearing, white people have more money to spend on clothes so there are more white models

not saying this is a go0d thing or anything....
but studies show that black people spend more money on the high fashions and materialistic odds and ends, than actually investing in real life, long term things.

i dont think the spending is the problem... b/c black people as a whole spend, then just dont invest.


so ... dont say that they dont have the money....

soooo......any other reason?

Garry k wrote:

I was never very good at Math /satatistics but seems to me that your breakdown is flawed

If "Blacks "comprise  14 percent  of the general population , shouldnt they also compromise 14 percent of  the modelling population -assuming there is  proportional  represention and given the provision that all other demographiic factors are similar between blacks and non blacks ( ie gender balance , age distribution etc )

And therefor when you see  6 "black "models /celebs  in an  issue of Vogue compared to over 300 white- the actual published representation of black models  falls to around 2% when it really should be that 14%

At first glance the answer might be yes.  Blacks should have numbers that
reflect their numbers in the general population but should it be based on
the actual numbers of Black women and girls of modeling age.  Lets take the
concept to sports.  In basketball Blacks are the greatest number of players.
In football and baseball our numbers reflect a higher number then 14% my
math may be flawed but my point is that in many publications Blacks are
shown in numbers that in many ways reflect our numbers in the general population.
Is there room for improvement, yes.

K. Holden wrote:

Uh, yeah, this math is totally wrong.

Take a city population of 1,000,000. If 14% of those people are Black, that's 140,000 people. If half of those 140,000 are women, that's 70,000 (he didn't mean to take 5% from the 8%, that's where this starts to get screwed up). If half of that 70,000 is of modeling age, that's 35,000, and if 3% are interested and want to model, that's 1,050 women.

Apply this same formula to 100% of the population.

1,050 Black women of the total modeling population (7,500): Wow! 14%

Unfortunately, here are the real numbers:

http://www.newmodels.com/race.html

Well newmodels says I'm wrong they put the actual number of working Black
models as HIGHER then the 14% of the population I gave.  I'm also curious
where most of those models are.

Paris Finesse718 wrote:

not saying this is a go0d thing or anything....
but studies show that black people spend more money on the high fashions and materialistic odds and ends, than actually investing in real life, long term things.

i dont think the spending is the problem... b/c black people as a whole spend, then just dont invest.


so ... dont say that they dont have the money....


soooo......any other reason?

This is a very sad but true quote.  Read this link
http://capeverde-islands.com/blackwealth.htm

Allure Vision wrote:
I know this post is going to get a lot of attention because of the title. But, I have a question. Yes I am a black photographer and the majority of the women I shoot are black women. The women of other races seem to be more open to topless or even full nudes on an artistic level. Or is it just my understanding? In my opinion I think nudity is an art form and can be explored. What else can be more natural. What more can be seen more beautiful? I have started to believe that more black women see nudity as porn. But when a woman of another race does it, it then becomes art.

"Allure"

I have found women to be open to many different forms of nudity.  But, I have myself questioned a few things.  I have "yet" to be able to find a black model to pose nude.  I have asked other photogs about this ans still don't really have an answer.  Other nationalities or race's dont' seem to be a problem.

As far as nudes in general.  If you are going to do it in "any" form be ready for a backlash from others.  There "are" going to be people...regardless of how tasteful it is...that are going to call it porn.  I don't consider any of my work to be porn...yet it has repeatedly been called that.

It is an issue that, in my opinion, as American's is a shame.  When I was overseas you never had people so ashamed of the human body.  Here we teach our kids to be ashamed.  That carries over into adulthood and here we are...anything nude is porn.

David Lucas wrote:
Obviously you haven't seen my port.

Not to sound cheeky or anything.

I think a lot of it has to do with societal pressures of what is supposed to be black beauty. Black folk are notorious for engulfing racial stereotypes and vomiting them back up as assertions of "blackness", which is socially devestating. I think a lot of folk can be discouraged from modeling nude simply because they have hangups on their body. I know I had a slight issue with it when I first started shooting nudes, but I got over it...

In a sense. I mainly got to the mindset that the folks who want to use me for nudes will contact me, regardless.

The whole issue with nudes isn't just...like...a racial thing, but I think a society thing as well. We're more or less taught to hate our bodies and to really be glad to be mediocre. *sigh*

David: Well put-body hangup issues stop a lot of women, regardless of race. And of course, the GWC factor. I'd shoot with you anytime! I love Santa Fe...a number of my water nudes were shot at 10,000 waves. Soooo...next time I'm in town? :-)https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pid=933344

David Lucas wrote:
Obviously you haven't seen my port.

Not to sound cheeky or anything.

I think a lot of it has to do with societal pressures of what is supposed to be black beauty. Black folk are notorious for engulfing racial stereotypes and vomiting them back up as assertions of "blackness", which is socially devestating. I think a lot of folk can be discouraged from modeling nude simply because they have hangups on their body. I know I had a slight issue with it when I first started shooting nudes, but I got over it...

In a sense. I mainly got to the mindset that the folks who want to use me for nudes will contact me, regardless.

The whole issue with nudes isn't just...like...a racial thing, but I think a society thing as well. We're more or less taught to hate our bodies and to really be glad to be mediocre. *sigh*

A good point. Especially the re-interpretation of the stereotypes.  I think an example of this in other media would be the "Gansta rap" thing, most prevalent in the 90s. 

It's a weird Catch-22.

It also seems as if the photographers responding to this thread say, "I haven't found a Black model who will shoot nudes" (actually that is more or less what the OP said), but I'm starting to think, "How hard have you looked?" and, "Have you photographed Black models in other genres first?"

Hmmm...

K. Holden wrote:

A good point. Especially the re-interpretation of the stereotypes.  I think an example of this in other media would be the "Gansta rap" thing, most prevalent in the 90s. 

It's a weird Catch-22.

It also seems as if the photographers responding to this thread say, "I haven't found a Black model who will shoot nudes" (actually that is more or less what the OP said), but I'm starting to think, "How hard have you looked?" and, "Have you photographed Black models in other genres first?"

Hmmm...

Not twisting my words and making this a racial debate would be greatly appreciated.

I have asked well over 50 and "none" of them accepted.  For that matter one flat out asked me if I was black or white. 

Since you are bringing up race as an issue lets make one thing very clear...ignoring the fact that race does play an issue in decisions made still today will not solve the fact that those issues still exist.

Furthermore, I was not trying to start a race debate I was simply reaffirming the posters comments and adding my own experiences.

Iris Swope wrote:

I dunno, I was watching it with my mouth hanging open...

People can say whatever they want in forums (not you ; in other stupid race topics) but it's nothing like being beat by Sheriffs, because you want to vote...that's just plain stupid...  But I've never been in Mississppi either, and am now not so sure that I ever want to go...

beatings...arrested...being falsely accused.... it happens EVERY day EVERY single day... all over not just in MS... PA has the largest number of registered hate groups in the nation... 

heck... my younger sister ( who wouldn't do anything illegal) just got arrested for being with someone who spoke back to a clerk and my family is having to go to court...   in high school i had to pay for a new car b/c this girl (white) hit me head on and SHE was in the wrong lane....  and  WHY???

my first two yrs of college in PA ...my friends and got called all kinds of names



things happen every day...it may not be as overt b/c now certain laws are in place but they happen... many ppl are just as closed minded they just can't act on it....


you don't have to watch PBS to "learn" that



what was this thread about again.... 

Image K wrote:
This thread was intended to get people riled up for no legit reason.

Just because this OP has supposedly had this experience, means nothing.

Let's place "the race card" back in the deck, where it belongs.

If you have a brain- leave this thread alone.

If discussing racial issues gets you riled up , then perhaps this is  not the discussion for you


It doesnt get me riled up , as I know that it is always my choice how I wish to respond to things emotionally

amelia84 wrote:

beatings...arrested...being falsely accused.... it happens EVERY day EVERY single day... all over not just in MS... PA has the largest number of registered hate groups in the nation... 

heck... my younger sister ( who wouldn't do anything illegal) just got arrested for being with someone who spoke back to a clerk and my family is having to go to court...   in high school i had to pay for a new car b/c this girl (white) hit me head on and SHE was in the wrong lane....  and  WHY???

my first two yrs of college in PA ...my friends and got called all kinds of names



things happen every day...it may not be as overt b/c now certain laws are in place but they happen... many ppl are just as closed minded they just can't act on it....


you don't have to watch PBS to "learn" that



what was this thread about again.... 

Not too may hate groups where I live , and  a lot of racial harmony ........

Garry k wrote:

Not too may hate groups where I live , and  a lot of racial harmony ........

maybe where you live should be a model ( no pun intended) for other regions...
if soo i would love to visit


or maybe things aren't quite how you perceive them... 


love.love.love

Garry k wrote:

If discussing racial issues gets you riled up , then perhaps this is  not the discussion for you


It doesnt get me riled up , as I know that it is always my choice how I wish to respond to things emotionally

Your point is well taken, Garry.

Maybe "riled up" was bad wording on my part (I love when people play "semantics")

Don't get me wrong, you are more than welcome to hammer away at this issue all day long if you like.

At the end of the day, you will have settled nothing.

Ali_C wrote:
Ok so here is my question..... just how black do you have to be before some of these photog's get off the subject of shades. Back then by law I was told that if you had even the slightest of black in you... you where black. Blacks have a beautiful spectrum if shades... and thats what represents our diversity. I have been watching this thread and it's sad to say that's what some of this is dwelling on. We have had several sista's come in here and represent... did they get any love or acknowledgement for steppin up and show'n "yes we do, do nudes?" NO... they didnt. As long as a sista whether she be dark or light-skinned does art nudes or modeling for that matter... we should be thankful. I know I am.

I started this post  yesterday and I am replying to the women who have responded. I appreciate their input as I do yours. The beauty of black women is due the the various shades of skin color, the shapes and variety of hair etc. Thats the purpose behind shooting nude black women as an art form. Since I've started this thread there have been responses from some black women. I have shown them "Love" for there response. But I've only had 1 to contact me back. We appreciate their opinion but let's not talk a bout it, right?

PS. I would do a website dedicated to the beauty of the black woman if we had the right participants. (OOPS! That should be the next thread!)

UnoMundo Photography wrote:
well, you are in Tennessee !

I get naked in TN

David Lucas wrote:
Obviously you haven't seen my port.

Not to sound cheeky or anything.

I think a lot of it has to do with societal pressures of what is supposed to be black beauty. Black folk are notorious for engulfing racial stereotypes and vomiting them back up as assertions of "blackness", which is socially devestating. I think a lot of folk can be discouraged from modeling nude simply because they have hangups on their body. I know I had a slight issue with it when I first started shooting nudes, but I got over it...

In a sense. I mainly got to the mindset that the folks who want to use me for nudes will contact me, regardless.

The whole issue with nudes isn't just...like...a racial thing, but I think a society thing as well. We're more or less taught to hate our bodies and to really be glad to be mediocre. *sigh*

Definitely Beautiful definitely art, this is exactly what I mean!

Image K wrote:
I was at the supermarket yesterday.

In the produce section.

A black woman rammed in to me with her shopping cart. She didn't say excuse me.
  I was flabbergasted!

Four months ago, a black man did the same exact thing to me.

So, my question is...

LOL... i'm soo bored i'm entertaining this....
and i'm assuming that was making reference to my comment...

sorry i was a little vague... but i don't really care to expound it would take too much time and i should actually be working

believe what you wish... 



love.love.love

Cat Platz wrote:

I get naked in TN

I love your response! LOL!

Allure Vision wrote:

I love your response! LOL!

Thanks!

I checked you out the other day and left you a pic comment......great work!  If I were a black woman, I'd get naked for ya 

Good luck!

Allure Vision wrote:

I started this post  yesterday and I am replying to the women who have responded. I appreciate their input as I do yours. The beauty of black women is due the the various shades of skin color, the shapes and variety of hair etc. Thats the purpose behind shooting nude black women as an art form. Since I've started this thread there have been responses from some black women. I have shown them "Love" for there response. But I've only had 1 to contact me back. We appreciate their opinion but let's not talk a bout it, right?

PS. I would do a website dedicated to the beauty of the black woman if we had the right participants. (OOPS! That should be the next thread!)

I just think you are in the wrong area luv.... try a different state. I do art nudes as you can see in my port and all of the "women of color" I know do nudes. I think geo-demographics plays a big part on your selection. Have you tried outside your state? Have you also tried paying the models? I dunno maybe those are some suggestions or maybe you have already done them. I myself know for starters Art nudes are a no no then it comes to a tfp stand-point. I was told never to tfp an art nude by a photog friend of mine. Good luck on your qwest though....
p.s. I still have seen the female models that spoke up get props.... i'll go and re-read this thread again but all i see are percentages. I'm lookin out for us models cause it seems no one else will... not saying you aren't

lotusphoto wrote:

taking the first zip code in a list for nashville tenn, 37201, i browsed mm, there are 11 black models (both genders) and 31 total (both genders -no preference)-within 5 miles..

i'm tripping on your question big time, i'm remembering a study that showed that black children prefered white dolls, i remember seeing those old national geographics, racial stereotyping in general..

my family comes from abolitionalists -people who campaigned for the aboltion of slavery (not people who like abalone), one of my ancestors was lincoln's secty of the treasury, we got an earful growing up, it was good

in 1962 when i was 12 we traveled to florida from connecticut for a december vacation, when we got below the mason dixon line we started to see segregation, i was shocked to see a 'white' drinking fountain beside a 'colored' drinking fountain... i stared at it for a few minutes..

just reading your question is kind.. 40, 45 years ago the idea of a black man photographing a white woman nude would have been unheard of, the fact that it's become routine enough for you to ask your question  in my short life is pretty cool..

thanks for pointing out the progress we have made  - although, be it as it may, in the narrow field of the arts...

I live in Memphis which is a about 4 hours down I40 from Nashville. I have photographed many women of any color in the nude and I can say that things have not changed all that much. There are those in this city who have let it be known that they wish lynching was still allowed because I would be hanging from a sour apple tree if it was. Did I mention I have a permit to carry a big gun.

Michele Iman wrote:

This is the part they need to get over, its not always pornographic.  It can be the appreciation of the body as something beautiful.