Melissa Lynnette wrote:

Haha!  I don't.  Then again, I've never had a problem with Ebay either.  Maybe because of what I'm buying?

Girl, I made the mistake of not checking references once. I bought a 12 dollar poster and never got it. Do you know I had to report those assholes to like 3 different agencies to get my money back? I'm crazy, yes. The ratings are there for a reason!

bang bang photo wrote:
Name one forum for transactions, one publication that rates or reviews performance or products, where there haven't been lawsuits over the facts. It's human nature that two of us can look at the same exact evidence, and draw completely different conclusions. That's why we have wars, divorces, lawsuits, and 10,000 religions that all claim to have an exclusive insight into what makes the whole thing work.

All you people are trying to put together a rating system like a game, and you're ignoring the simple fact that people make bad decisions all the time and later regret it, and want to clean up the mess. This business plan is untenable from the start because it fails to provide an income stream to protect itself against those who are irresponsible today, and want it fixed tomorrow.

Please don't underestimate the power of enterprise. People take risks that are often labeled as foolish, yet without these risk takers, there would be no innovation, no progress.

I say, design, lunch a beta version, redesign, and go from there.

Jay Bowman wrote:
I suppose they'd have to join the site to be able to post schedules and feedback correct?


Certainly you've given this considerable thought but keep one thing in mind:  everybody is familiar with ebay's rating system.  There are tons of modeling websites out there.  Not a single one that we know of has this kind of rating system that you propose. 

While you are surely aware of that, it's likely that when all the early people were tinkering around shortly after the wheel was invented, there was somebody thinking "Hey, I've got an idea... I could make a square wheel!!  None of these idiots has thought of that!!"


Uh, yeah they have.  And I'm sure that all the admins of the countless modeling websites have considered having just such a rating system that you propose.  And they've opted not to do it.  Why?  It just doesn't work.  How's it going to compete with a free site like MM that's already well known?  How will the visual display compete with a site like SoloModels?  How will it have more features than Musecube or OneModelPlace?  The whole "now you can out flakes!" just won't be enough of a hook.  Either the premise will by default attract people who wouldn't flake and repell those who would or you'll end up with a massive mudslinging catastrophe on your hands (and expensive legal problems to deal with).

And then you'll sit and wonder "Why doesn't my square wheel work?  The idea seemed innovative and appropriate at the time..."

This post is appropriate to answer this one-time answer: leave the business details, marketing strategies, etc up to the team I hire.
  There are many reasons a company may choose to implement (or not) certain features.  Before istock, companies didn't imagine they'd be able to make money selling photos for pennies.  Now the square wheel is eating up traditional companies' profits.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:

I see sarcasm in a response to a perfectly understandable argument. And it's a mentality like this that will make sites such as the one suggested end up hurting a lot of people and in the end, just being a joke.

It's not like a model has not canceled at the last minute or just didn't show. Or didn't call to follow up. Yes, there are costs involved, but I know that's the risk I take in working with models off the net or even an agency (happened to me before). I try not to be that way. However, what about the photographers who contact you, pitch an idea, set a date, postpone, set another date, postpone and then nothing for a bit, then contact you, set another date and then postpone? Happened to me recently.

I prefer to be discreet. If a photographer or model is smart, they will do their homework. And if I am asked for a reference, I am going to be honest and relay my experience, noting also that not everyone will have the same experience as another.

The online communication will show the photographer attempting to postpone dates.  The model and photographer both have to confirm any date, otherwise the transaction doesn't go through.

CLT wrote:
Please don't underestimate the power of enterprise. People take risks that are often labeled as foolish, yet without these risk takers, there would be no innovation, no progress.

I say, design, lunch a beta version, redesign, and go from there.

I can't tell you the number of times I sat in rooms with people saying the same kinds of things during the internet bubble. They, and their companies are mostly gone now. Some took thousands of good employees down with them.

Yes, it's great when someone successfully takes a risk and makes it. But not every risk is worth taking. Sometimes something that looks stupid and extremely risky -- is in fact stupid and extremely risky.

Rick Jolly wrote:
I think the results of your site will be legal troubles. But hey, as long as there your legal troubles go for it. I like the idea!

after a couple years of internet modeling photography, I have found it is not that difficult to look at a photographers or models portfolio and have an idea of their show or no-show risk.
By no means am I saying I'm right everytime, but I have a good idea.

here's a clue for a no show... no phone conversation or contact number, odds are a no-show. This has been my experience anyways.

Side post: Cincinnati, I guess, is different from New Falls.  Contact number, conversation, etc all make no difference in my numbers of no-shows.  The only thing that has been fruitful is requiring a meeting beforehand.  I'm sure it's still possible to flake afterward, but this has been the most successful in screening.

WillSun wrote:

The online communication will show the photographer attempting to postpone dates.  The model and photographer both have to confirm any date, otherwise the transaction doesn't go through.

Too many ways to be dishonest. I applaud the idea as being a genuine one, but as a photographer myself, I wouldn't use a website. Honestly, I don't spend near as much time online as I do in the studio or on location. If I am online, it's to unwind and relax or tend to MM, not to talk about who showed and who didn't. If someone doesn't show, I adapt. No worries. It doesn't do anything for me to try to hurt someone who inconvenienced my day. I am going to Heaven.

bang bang photo wrote:

Name one forum for transactions, one publication that rates or reviews performance or products, where there haven't been lawsuits over the facts. It's human nature that two of us can look at the same exact evidence, and draw completely different conclusions. That's why we have wars, divorces, lawsuits, and 10,000 religions that all claim to have an exclusive insight into what makes the whole thing work.

All you people are trying to put together a rating system like a game, and you're ignoring the simple fact that people make bad decisions all the time and later regret it, and want to clean up the mess. This business plan is untenable from the start because it fails to provide an income stream to protect itself against those who are irresponsible today, and want it fixed tomorrow.

I am just thinking this matter out. You may want to look at the Better Business Bureau plan that they have for business. You can call the bureau to see if any complaints have been made against a business. They will tell you if there are and if the complaints are outstanding or have been resolved. I am not saying the way the bureau is ran may protect you but you may want to look at it frame and then rebuild your ideas from there. In this case you would have to sell membership to photographers and models and build it name up to prestige so that more people would want to join because it shows credibility. But this would take some time so cash flow would be needed. By selling membership your contract would be worded to reduce your liability from law suits.

WillSun wrote:
The thing about telephone contact info is that one would have to be able to decide who gets to see that number.   We wouldn't want unsolicited calls to our business numbers or personal cell phones.  Maybe the number can't be seen until both people agree to a project?  Or maybe the number shouldn't be there unless the model/photographer decide to release it to the other person?  What do you think?

This is already done. If the Photog and the model agree to a shoot, usully numbers are exchanged,  although, it's not a gaurantee.. It's called Email. If numbers aren't exchanged, I'd guess that it's mutual masterbation, and both are flakes.

WillSun wrote:
This post is appropriate to answer this one-time answer: leave the business details, marketing strategies, etc up to the team I hire.
  There are many reasons a company may choose to implement (or not) certain features.  Before istock, companies didn't imagine they'd be able to make money selling photos for pennies.  Now the square wheel is eating up traditional companies' profits.

Fair enough.  Those are valid points.

Still, as a guy with an economics degree who walked away from a job with a reputable brokerage house, business details and marketing strategies are things in which I am quite well-versed.  Don't let the pretty pictures fool you.





Have fun with your square wheel.  I promise not to say "I told you so"...

Tape Her Up wrote:
As someone who has had to deal with a LOT of flakes, I think this is a pretty damn lousy idea.  Mainly because there's so many variables.

Someone posted that all one had to do was look at the ratings posted by the photographer to judge if he/she needed to be taken seriously.  Well, wait a minute.  Let's take a guy like me for example.  On average, I'd say half of my shoots flake on me--even the so-called "bondage models" that have modeled for other sites flaked on me.

Case in point:  I had two shoots lined up for when I was in Hollywood.  Only one showed up.  The other dropped off the face of the Earth.  Both pro bondage models.

So if I used your rating system, we could say that 22 out of my 44 ratings would be bad.  Now, someone looks at that and says "he only gives 50% of his models a good rating, he must just be an angry guy with an agenda" instead of thinking that maybe the other 22 models really did flake?

Again, anyone can post a lie in a feedback system.  And who's word would you take?  A bunch of years ago, I bought something off a guy on Ebay.  He never sent me what I bought.  After a while, I posted negative feedback.  He applied to Ebay for a credit on the sale, saying that I never paid him!  And who's side did Ebay take?  His, only because he had more feedback than me!

This site is a bad idea with a capital B.  Bury it now.

This is why I posted the idea.  I have different experiences concerning no-shows than other photographers and needed input.  No one is required to join.  Opinions aside, I'd like to address your feedback.
Will all of these models also be registered members?  If so, unless there is something mystical about your projects, the models with whom you've confirmed a date are more than likely to have other no-shows with other photographers.  (Earlier in the year my no shows were a lot more than 50%.  I don't know what I'd do to ensure a 50% show rate.)
  I'm sorry about Ebay.  When I sell things, I always get a confirmation slip from the post office.

Dredful Jaymz wrote:

This is already done. If the Photog and the model agree to a shoot, usully numbers are exchanged,  although, it's not a gaurantee.. It's called Email. If numbers aren't exchanged, I'd guess that it's mutual masterbation, and both are flakes.

The problem with email is the same as confirming a date for a project.

WillSun wrote:
This is why I posted the idea.  I have different experiences concerning no-shows than other photographers and needed input.  No one is required to join.  Opinions aside, I'd like to address your feedback.
Will all of these models also be registered members?  If so, unless there is something mystical about your projects, the models with whom you've confirmed a date are more than likely to have other no-shows with other photographers.  (Earlier in the year my no shows were a lot more than 50%.  I don't know what I'd do to ensure a 50% show rate.)
  I'm sorry about Ebay.  When I sell things, I always get a confirmation slip from the post office.

Okay, re-read my post.  I have had Professional Bondage Models--that is to say models who have done bondage for other sites--up and flake on me.  It happened in California.  One showed, the other didn't.  Flakes happen.  Getting angry about it isn't going to solve things and setting up a website where people can flame one another in a ratings system just isn't a generally good idea.

And supposing I set up a shoot with a model not on your site, but here or on OMP?  And that model flakes?  Where's the ability to warn others off then?

I generally think there's a reason sites like OMP and ModelMayhem don't have a ratings system.  The idea is inherently flawed.  Just like it is on Ebay.

Ty Simone wrote:
the Problems as I see them with this proposal:
1. Liability of posts. You could indeed be sued more often than you can afford, regardless if you win or not, it is an expensive route.
2. He said she said system. I guarentee the first time a photog posts something bad about a model the model will respond with something like, "Oh he im'ed me perverted stuff and made suggestions I sleep with him" etc....
In today's society, people seem to thuink that it is best to attack in order to defend yourself (just read these forums)
3. Lack of accountability. Just like everything else on the web, being anonymous, or semi-anonymous allows people to say things they would not normally say. Also, because they feel protected, after all it is first amendment speech... sort of... they can use the fact they are a member to force someone into something they would not normally do.

"Susan, If you do not take off your close spread your legs and use the Cucumber, I will post your name on the blacklist and make sure you never work again...."

Susan, a new starting model may very well do that. (remember the posts about a model accepting a hotel room with the photog..... Not too far off this mark....)

4. General uselessness.
A model simply changes her name and is no longer searchable on the site.
BlackKitty becomes BlakKate.

The concept is good. Several photogs from my area did something similar but more informal to help one another avoid flake models in our area.

Hey, Marie was awesome, but Jenny called an hour before and cancelled because she was partying....

1,3 (Susan doesn't have an escort, I presume), and 4 are already addressed.  Number 2 is the area for discussion.  Anyone can lie, and people can have a bad day.  Over time, the true personality and behavior will dictate the reviews.

Tape Her Up wrote:

Okay, re-read my post.  I have had Professional Bondage Models--that is to say models who have done bondage for other sites--up and flake on me.  It happened in California.  One showed, the other didn't.  Flakes happen.  Getting angry about it isn't going to solve things and setting up a website where people can flame one another in a ratings system just isn't a generally good idea.

And supposing I set up a shoot with a model not on your site, but here or on OMP?  And that model flakes?  Where's the ability to warn others off then?

I generally think there's a reason sites like OMP and ModelMayhem don't have a ratings system.  The idea is inherently flawed.  Just like it is on Ebay.

If the site doesn't work, then it fails and we lose money.  No big deal.  The original post asks about what features, etc would be needed.  I'm not here to solicit investment advice.

It's not solely about "getting angry" or "flaming."  People can leave good reviews as well.

Suppose you set up a shoot with a model not on the site now and she flakes?  Suppose I invest in a bank in the Dominican Republic and it steals my money? 

I don't think the reason sites like OMP and ModelMayhem don't have ratings systems is limited to thinking the idea is flawed.

UnSeenYou wrote:
This is all VERY doable.  We have to stop worrying about those who may sue and think of the greater good.  We need to upgrade BOTH photogs and models.

Maybe I am being simplistic, but MM and others like OMP and MP need to take the lead and have a list of requirments to be professional enough to 1) respond to all mail, 2) Have honest and full exchange of ideas and 30 to keep appointments.

SINCE MM WON'T DO IT .... we need to create a vehicle for the pros to get around the BS.  I can think of about 3 models who are complete idiots and have pulled BS on me, acting as if they know the business, yet prove how ignorant they are of safety and also lack business sense.  Months later, they still have camera phone images and trying to get paid shoots. 

I've come across a LOT of models who talk stuff, but will not even meet for coffee to discuss the upcoming shoot and make arrangements to discuss specifics.  I feel that if a model is too busy to talk over coffee and to review my work, then she is not professional PERIOD.  This is for her peace-of-mind and safety. 

A model and photog need to have clarity of what they want to do before they meet, but many simply think that they will walk in, have this super shoot and will have tremendous results.

So, if we need to take the bull by the horns, so be it.

Side note, Unseen:  The best method for ensuring my no-show rate stays as low as it has ever been has been setting up pre-shoot meetings.  I'm knocking on wood, but the pre-shoot attendees have been 100% shows.  If they don't show for the meeting, it won't matter since it's somewhere I wanted to go anyway, and no real time has been lost.

UnSeenYou wrote:
SINCE MM WON'T DO IT .... we need to create a vehicle for the pros to get around the BS.

There is a vehicle in place already for professionals to get around the BS of internet modeling, but by default it requires you to step away from your computer and interact in the real world. 

Perish the thought...



Or you can avoid unprofessional sites like MM completely.  Either that or be realistic about the likelihood of no-shows from a free internet site where anyone with 4 pictures can claim to be a model or photographer or stylist or make-up artist etc.

Take your pick; the vehicles are already available...

Jay Bowman wrote:

There is a vehicle in place already for professionals to get around the BS of internet modeling, but by default it requires you to step away from your computer and interact in the real world. 

Perish the thought...



Or you can avoid unprofessional sites like MM completely.  Either that or be realistic about the likelihood of no-shows from a free internet site where anyone with 4 pictures can claim to be a model or photographer or stylist or make-up artist etc.

Take your pick; the vehicles are already available...

"the likelihood of no-shows from a free internet site where anyone with 4 pictures can claim to be a model or photographer or stylist or make-up artist etc" You said it.

Tape Her Up wrote:
Okay, let me ask something here because it's bothering me.  You mentioned the idea of the scheduled shoots being posted directly on the site.  So...let's take an example and see if this is what you mean.

Let us say that Dawn Elizabeth (I'll pick on a Mod for this one) and I decide we're going to do a 3 hour bondage shoot on Saturday, October 7, 2006 at 11 am at the Holiday Inn on Street Road (across from the Hooters).  So (if I'm reading this right) we would then go and post on your site that Dawn Elizabeth and Tape Her Up are going to do a 3 hour bondage shoot on 10/07/06 at the Holiday Inn 2331 Street Road (or whatever the hell that address was).  This is Dawn Elizabeth's cell phone number.  This is Tape Her Up's Cell Phone Number.

All this would be posted on your site right out in the open where ANYONE can see it?  Other photographers, other models, Right Wing Moralist Nut Jobs, etc?  So then people could crash the shoot, or call Dawn up and harrass her to not do the shoot because it's immoral, or call me up and harass me that I'm a tool of Satan, call the cops and tell them all sorts of wicked lies so that the cops crash the shoot, etc.

This idea is getting worse and worse.

Tape Her Up, in all honesty, that's your idea, not mine.  I don't even think MM's online communication works like that.

WillSun wrote:
Tape Her Up, in all honesty, that's your idea, not mine.  I don't even think MM's online communication works like that.

Then how would this online communication thingy work?  In other words, if Dawn Elizabeth and I agree to a shoot and post the time, date, location, yada yada on the site, where would it go?

Saturday, October 7, 2006 Dawn Elizabeth flakes.  I post that she flakes.  How would you or whoever the arbitrator was have a way to check that such a shoot was to happen?

Explain to me the details of this posting of information for the shoot.  How would this work any differently than sending messages through MM or OMP?  How would the arbitrators even know a shoot was supposed to happen?

Lora wrote:

So a new model who might have been a little naive about checking references might be badmouthed by someone who, for one reason or another, just wasn't clear in explaining what he expected of her, or maybe just assumed she should know what and experienced model should know and she's got a 1 out of 1. No one would work with her. Hmm... was that a run-on?

Well if the project is handled inhouse on the site then all contact and info given and recieved will be there for any to see. So if this new model or photographer says so and so didn't explain whatever then all we need do is read what was written like each of them should have done. I think it's a great idea, find your model whereever and once contact is made bring the project to the site being discussed here.
works for me.

Tape Her Up wrote:

Then how would this online communication thingy work?  In other words, if Dawn Elizabeth and I agree to a shoot and post the time, date, location, yada yada on the site, where would it go?

Saturday, October 7, 2006 Dawn Elizabeth flakes.  I post that she flakes.  How would you or whoever the arbitrator was have a way to check that such a shoot was to happen?

Explain to me the details of this posting of information for the shoot.  How would this work any differently than sending messages through MM or OMP?  How would the arbitrators even know a shoot was supposed to happen?

If you can't independently see the contraposition of your prior post, I don't think answering would benefit me (or you) in any way.  Do you believe MM's online communication is inaccessible to the owners of this website?
  I believe many of your questions are deliberately rhetorical to make an assertion, rather than to offer anything.  You've stated your opinion frequently in this thread; so whether you understand or not, I'm sure it won't affect you or me either way.

WillSun wrote:
If you can't independently see the contraposition of your prior post, I don't think answering would benefit me (or you) in any way.  Do you believe MM's online communication is inaccessible to the owners of this website?
  I believe many of your questions are deliberately rhetorical to make an assertion, rather than to offer anything.  You've stated your opinion frequently in this thread; so whether you understand or not, I'm sure it won't affect you or me either way.

Okay, let me translate your answer:  you didn't think this through, you have no answers, and you really only want people to tell you it's a great idea.

Carlos Arturo Velarde wrote:
There is already a place like that. www.modellocate.com not only allows you to schedule a shoot through the site, it also allows you to review the person after you work with him/her, and they allow links on your profile ot any other modeling site you want to put there.

If you do join, I would appreciate it if you put my number (1706) at the bottom of the page as the person who referred you to the site.

Thank you Carlos.  I guess the detractors like to make negative comments, site unseen (bad corny pun).

Jay Bowman wrote:

There is a vehicle in place already for professionals to get around the BS of internet modeling, but by default it requires you to step away from your computer and interact in the real world. 

Perish the thought...



Or you can avoid unprofessional sites like MM completely.  Either that or be realistic about the likelihood of no-shows from a free internet site where anyone with 4 pictures can claim to be a model or photographer or stylist or make-up artist etc.

Take your pick; the vehicles are already available...

Good points but, as we move more and more towards the internet for all of our lifes needs including models and away from the brick and mortor agency type why not have a place that trys to insure that we have the same safeguards given now by the agencies?

Vivus Denuo wrote:
Suppose a photog gets pissed off at a model who rejected his advances, so, in a snit, he falsely posts dirt about her.  Other photogs see that she's got one comment and it's negative.  They won't shoot with her.  She then has to prove her innocence.  That's unfair.

The OP already said that nothing can be said about the model unless she is registered and can defend herself. Though, in my opinion, the damage is already done. I've been in that situation.

Vivus Denuo wrote:
Suppose a photog gets pissed off at a model who rejected his advances, so, in a snit, he falsely posts dirt about her.  Other photogs see that she's got one comment and it's negative.  They won't shoot with her.  She then has to prove her innocence.  That's unfair.

read the whole idea of this, you transact the shoot through the site, all contact about the shoot is there to be seen. Your fear is groundless.

Lora wrote:

The OP already said that nothing can be said about the model unless she is registered and can defend herself. Though, in my opinion, the damage is already done. I've been in that situation.

I agree, the accusation itself is damning.  If there's both a complaint against a model and her defense, I don't know the real story, so I'd probably just skip the model and find one with no complaints.

I think the idea for such a site sounds better than it is.