Ruben Grolet wrote:
Hmmm...You are going to make alot of enemies.

Why, the only people that have anything to fear are the completely mindless jerks that don't show when they're supposed to, and who cares what hole they crawl out of to complain.

WillSun wrote:
(The topic is a bit dramatic, but that's by design.)
I'm currently in talks with a few website/database designers to work on a solution to a common internet problem: people that don't show/call. This website will allow people to confirm a date and time. When this date/time schedule has passed, the photographer is allowed to leave a review on the model. The model can post a review as well, just like ebay.
Many people cannot find an appropriate place to let others know, "You're wasting your time if you decide to work with him/her." You can't do it within a forum or it comes off as bashing. However, if I were to enter a transaction with someone on another website, and the person delivered a bad product, didn't complete the project, or was a no-show/no-call, I'd like to be able to leave a review. One of the reasons so many independent models find it easy to flake is because there are no foreseeable consequences to their future actions.  If ebay had no way to review a seller, who would buy anything from them?
However, if someone places their bio for all to see, with feedback being left on them, they'd be less likely to flake if they want future work. The same goes for independent models who are serious about their work. Right now, they really have no way of differentiating themselves from those who flake. Anyone can post "I've worked with photographer# " yet have many more photographers on which they've flaked.
If a model has confirmed 10 dates, yet shown for none, and charges the same as the model who has shown for all of her dates, who would get the work?
Photogs would also have a way to separate themselves from unprofessional people with cams.
What I'd like are ideas for other features which photogs/models would need, want, or just like to have.

Lora wrote:
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about that is that I HAVE had a photographer make false claims about me and tried to tell other photographers about it. He said I wasn't the actress that I claimed to be and even went as far as revealing things about my personal life. (This all after he "showed up" at my house unannounced and I called him out for it).

They were all very untrue and very hurtful. Just knowing that other photographers thought of me as a liar made me stop modeling for quite a while. How many people would take claims on this site and just assume them to be true?

Jusst like on Ebay the OP said there would be a space for this problem. Simply refute what was said in an un emotional factual manner and you'll look like a star. List the academies you studied acting at and the grade point average and the other career credits you've amassed.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

Jusst like on Ebay the OP said there would be a space for this problem. Simply refute what was said in an un emotional factual manner and you'll look like a star. List the academies you studied acting at and the grade point average and the other career credits you've amassed.

I guess my point is that even one claim like that can be hurtful to your reputation, whether you can back up your claims or not. I felt that way, anyway.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

Jusst like on Ebay the OP said there would be a space for this problem. Simply refute what was said in an un emotional factual manner and you'll look like a star. List the academies you studied acting at and the grade point average and the other career credits you've amassed.

If you have to explain something then your already lost some as they don't even want to be caught up in the drama.

Who wants to be on the defensive trying to explian why someone is lying and ultimately the best you can hope for is that those looking at the fact would still want to work with you?

It's a chilling effect that will turn off models from modeling and potentially a weapon for ethically challenged people to use to get people to do things they don't want to do.

WillSun wrote:
(The topic is a bit dramatic, but that's by design.)
I'm currently in talks with a few website/database designers to work on a solution to a common internet problem: people that don't show/call. This website will allow people to confirm a date and time. When this date/time schedule has passed, the photographer is allowed to leave a review on the model. The model can post a review as well, just like ebay.
Many people cannot find an appropriate place to let others know, "You're wasting your time if you decide to work with him/her." You can't do it within a forum or it comes off as bashing. However, if I were to enter a transaction with someone on another website, and the person delivered a bad product, didn't complete the project, or was a no-show/no-call, I'd like to be able to leave a review. One of the reasons so many independent models find it easy to flake is because there are no foreseeable consequences to their future actions.  If ebay had no way to review a seller, who would buy anything from them?
However, if someone places their bio for all to see, with feedback being left on them, they'd be less likely to flake if they want future work. The same goes for independent models who are serious about their work. Right now, they really have no way of differentiating themselves from those who flake. Anyone can post "I've worked with photographer# " yet have many more photographers on which they've flaked.
If a model has confirmed 10 dates, yet shown for none, and charges the same as the model who has shown for all of her dates, who would get the work?
Photogs would also have a way to separate themselves from unprofessional people with cams.
What I'd like are ideas for other features which photogs/models would need, want, or just like to have.

I've wanted to do the exact same thing, except I don't have the resources to implement it. I think it's a good idea. It gives flakers something to think about before they mindlessly commit to a shoot.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
I would like there to be no moderators.

I'm Batman.

CLT wrote:
I've wanted to do the exact same thing, except I don't have the resources to implement it. I think it's a good idea. It gives flakers something to think about before they mindlessly commit to a shoot.

I think you're missing a point -- flakers who are "mindless" aren't going to be thinking about anything before they commit to a shoot. Having a website out there to punish them isn't going to make them think any harder, any more than locking people up stops crime. People do what they want to do, and worry about the consequences later. And the flakier they are, the more likely they are not to worry about it.

But when they figure out that this website is making them look like fools, they'll put plenty of energy into figuring out how to make it go away.

I'm not saying there's not merit to the idea -- I'm saying that unlike newspapers, magazines, and other websites that often piss people off, you don't have a stream of income to use to defend yourself against those who piss in your direction. Without money, you're too vulnerable to be appointing yourself protector of the universe -- you have no protection yourself!

Paul

Lora wrote:
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about that is that I HAVE had a photographer make false claims about me and tried to tell other photographers about it. He said I wasn't the actress that I claimed to be and even went as far as revealing things about my personal life. (This all after he "showed up" at my house unannounced and I called him out for it).

They were all very untrue and very hurtful. Just knowing that other photographers thought of me as a liar made me stop modeling for quite a while. How many people would take claims on this site and just assume them to be true?

Thanks for your reply Lora.  I agree that there may be areas of abuse.  These kind of questions need to be brought up so I and my team could discuss them.  On the surface, I guess this would work the same as ebay, in that anyone can blatantly lie about a seller.  What if all communication were done through the site, only to be viewable by the model and photographer who agreed on the project?  This would leave a trail for arbitration and dispute resolution.  Moreover, I believe a photographer who is quick to lie about people would inadvertently manifest this weakness.  Your other reviews should all be positive.

Bob Randall Photography wrote:

Jusst like on Ebay the OP said there would be a space for this problem. Simply refute what was said in an un emotional factual manner and you'll look like a star. List the academies you studied acting at and the grade point average and the other career credits you've amassed.

I see sarcasm in a response to a perfectly understandable argument. And it's a mentality like this that will make sites such as the one suggested end up hurting a lot of people and in the end, just being a joke.

It's not like a model has not canceled at the last minute or just didn't show. Or didn't call to follow up. Yes, there are costs involved, but I know that's the risk I take in working with models off the net or even an agency (happened to me before). I try not to be that way. However, what about the photographers who contact you, pitch an idea, set a date, postpone, set another date, postpone and then nothing for a bit, then contact you, set another date and then postpone? Happened to me recently.

I prefer to be discreet. If a photographer or model is smart, they will do their homework. And if I am asked for a reference, I am going to be honest and relay my experience, noting also that not everyone will have the same experience as another.

Jack Checkowy wrote:
It might work!  I think what people are missing is that if you can see all the reviews, if one out of 20 is bad, there may be a good reason and the model/ photographer is worth the chance, 1 out of 20 good, well there are 19 other reasons not to use them.  Every one has an off day, but if the majority are good, then you win!!

So a new model who might have been a little naive about checking references might be badmouthed by someone who, for one reason or another, just wasn't clear in explaining what he expected of her, or maybe just assumed she should know what and experienced model should know and she's got a 1 out of 1. No one would work with her. Hmm... was that a run-on?

Jessalyn_54 wrote:
what about models (or anyone, photographers etc, for that matter) that DON'T know about the website when it goes live? say there is an honest misunderstanding with a shoot (time mixup?) and a model doesn't show. so a photographer goes on this website bashing her and she loses work because of it. she doesn't know about it and therefore cannot defend herself

If you don't know about the website, no one can leave a review.  Think of ebay.  I can't just leave a review about a seller if this seller is not even on ebay.
The time mix-up would not be an excuse.  The time would be on the website for both the photographer and model to see.  If the model/photog doesn't show on Oct 3 at 7:00 because s/he thought Oct 3 was next week, it would show unprofessionalism either way.
No one can bash anyone arbitrarily.  All confirmations of dates/meetings/projects are through the site with both the model and photographer being registered members.  Anonymous bashing is best reserved for sites like craigslist.

Ched wrote:

I'm Batman.

You wouldn't be welcome as batman, due to past offences to mankind you would have to pay penance before admission. Something like $100.00 payable to me as mankinds representative here on MM and some hail mary's (you determine the appropriate number) should do it.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Can I just say that I never look at the feedback ratings on ebay.

Why not? Aren't you worried about what might happen to your money?

Ruben Grolet wrote:
Hmmm...You are going to make alot of enemies.

But, I must ad, if a model is asking for pay then she should be professional enough to show, call to re-schedule or cancel with an explanation. Not only do models need to make money, so do photographers.

What kind of enemies?  I'd think professional, serious people would like a way to separate themselves from the others who give us a bad name.

bang bang photo wrote:
I think you're missing a point -- flakers who are "mindless" aren't going to be thinking about anything before they commit to a shoot. Having a website out there to punish them isn't going to make them think any harder, any more than locking people up stops crime. People do what they want to do, and worry about the consequences later.

When they figure out that this website is making them look like fools though, they'll put plenty of energy into figuring out how to make it go away.

Paul

I'm not missing the point. While I don't know what all the op has in the designs, my concept was that both the photographer and the model must be registered users, and  both must confirm the shoot. When the shoot date has passed, each party go back to the site and rate their experience. The experience will be multiple choice, such as "session completed", "rescheduled", "cancelled", or "no show". Then, like eBay, you'll get a few characters to write the experience in your own words. All parties will be active participants in this system if they choose to be, no one will be surprised that they are being "outed" on another site.

WillSun wrote:

If you don't know about the website, no one can leave a review.  Think of ebay.  I can't just leave a review about a seller if this seller is not even on ebay.
The time mix-up would not be an excuse.  The time would be on the website for both the photographer and model to see.  If the model/photog doesn't show on Oct 3 at 7:00 because s/he thought Oct 3 was next week, it would show unprofessionalism either way.
No one can bash anyone arbitrarily.  All confirmations of dates/meetings/projects are through the site with both the model and photographer being registered members.  Anonymous bashing is best reserved for sites like craigslist.

I ask again -- what will you do when they come for you? How will YOU defend yourself when someone claims that your website has unfairly harmed their business?

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Can I just say that I never look at the feedback ratings on ebay.

If you use Ebay then that is un-wise. Unless you just like rolling the dice. I mean hey, you probably don't check the reciepts at the mall to see if your being overcharged for anything either..that's cool. To each their own!

Bob Randall Photography wrote:
I'd like to see everyone here join that site. I would like there to be no moderators. Telephone contact info would be nice.

The thing about telephone contact info is that one would have to be able to decide who gets to see that number.   We wouldn't want unsolicited calls to our business numbers or personal cell phones.  Maybe the number can't be seen until both people agree to a project?  Or maybe the number shouldn't be there unless the model/photographer decide to release it to the other person?  What do you think?

CLT wrote:
I'm not missing the point. While I don't know what all the op has in the designs, my concept was that both the photographer and the model must be registered users, and  both must confirm the shoot. When the shoot date has passed, each party go back to the site and rate their experience. The experience will be multiple choice, such as "session completed", "rescheduled", "cancelled", or "no show". Then, like eBay, you'll get a few characters to write the experience in your own words. All parties will be active participants in this system if they choose to be, no one will be surprised that they are being "outed" on another site.

Name one forum for transactions, one publication that rates or reviews performance or products, where there haven't been lawsuits over the facts. It's human nature that two of us can look at the same exact evidence, and draw completely different conclusions. That's why we have wars, divorces, lawsuits, and 10,000 religions that all claim to have an exclusive insight into what makes the whole thing work.

All you people are trying to put together a rating system like a game, and you're ignoring the simple fact that people make bad decisions all the time and later regret it, and want to clean up the mess. This business plan is untenable from the start because it fails to provide an income stream to protect itself against those who are irresponsible today, and want it fixed tomorrow.

Lora wrote:

So a new model who might have been a little naive about checking references might be badmouthed by someone who, for one reason or another, just wasn't clear in explaining what he expected of her, or maybe just assumed she should know what and experienced model should know and she's got a 1 out of 1. No one would work with her. Hmm... was that a run-on?

The system is never perfect, but if you are able to shearch the person making the comments, lets say Photographer "A" and you find he.she has put bad references on 8 out of 10 models, a reasonable person could conclude that Photographer "A" has a problem and his/her posts should be taken with a large grain of salt!  Look at the total personna of the person on the site and make your own decision!

I do feel sorry for new models and often try and point them in the proper dirrections and advise them what to look for when talking to a photographer.

Michael Kirst wrote:

If you use Ebay then that is un-wise. Unless you just like rolling the dice. I mean hey, you probably don't check the reciepts at the mall to see if your being overcharged for anything either..that's cool. To each their own!

Haha!  I don't.  Then again, I've never had a problem with Ebay either.  Maybe because of what I'm buying?

WillSun wrote:
(The topic is a bit dramatic, but that's by design.)
I'm currently in talks with a few website/database designers to work on a solution to a common internet problem: people that don't show/call. This website will allow people to confirm a date and time. When this date/time schedule has passed, the photographer is allowed to leave a review on the model. The model can post a review as well, just like ebay.
Many people cannot find an appropriate place to let others know, "You're wasting your time if you decide to work with him/her." You can't do it within a forum or it comes off as bashing. However, if I were to enter a transaction with someone on another website, and the person delivered a bad product, didn't complete the project, or was a no-show/no-call, I'd like to be able to leave a review. One of the reasons so many independent models find it easy to flake is because there are no foreseeable consequences to their future actions.  If ebay had no way to review a seller, who would buy anything from them?
However, if someone places their bio for all to see, with feedback being left on them, they'd be less likely to flake if they want future work. The same goes for independent models who are serious about their work. Right now, they really have no way of differentiating themselves from those who flake. Anyone can post "I've worked with photographer# " yet have many more photographers on which they've flaked.
If a model has confirmed 10 dates, yet shown for none, and charges the same as the model who has shown for all of her dates, who would get the work?
Photogs would also have a way to separate themselves from unprofessional people with cams.
What I'd like are ideas for other features which photogs/models would need, want, or just like to have.

I think it is an idea whose time has come...  my experience in Nevada last month was beyond belief... never had a run of last minute (literally) cancellations for all manner of excuses.  It's past the time to exchange the info and experiences.

bang bang photo wrote:
One important difference between ebay and you -- they're making money -- a lot of money -- off of their website. How do you plan to make money off of yours?

Hope you have deep pockets -- I predict you'll have this up and running for only a few weeks - maybe a couple of months before somebody sues you for libel, slander, defamation of character, or some other thing. ebay gets sued all the time -- they can afford it. How are you planning to pay for your legal expenses?

Any system of justice requires checks and balances. People who are accused of doing wrong, whether it's paying a bill late, killing somebody, or doing a no-show on a photo shoot, have a right to face their accusers and produce evidence that the charges against them are false. How will you provide this?

So, my take: you're starting a publishing business with no business plan for the creation of income and profit. Your publishing business is based on the premise of "outing" people who do bad things to other people. "Outing" people backs them into a corner, and forces them to defend themselves to protect their image, name, ego, reputation, business, income stream, you name it. So you can expect at least a few of the folks you "out" to hit back at you -- and the best way to do that, other than having you beat up in a back alley, is to legally harass you, discredit you as an individual, and make it economically unfeasible for you to continue with your website. And your website has no way to generate income to protect yourself against the people you annoy with it. Good luck!

Here's a little light reading that should amplify my point:

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/silico … 233346.htm
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercuryn … 228670.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … U22018.DTL
http://news.com.com/5208-1017-0.html?fo … 2&start=-1


Paul

I have no obligation to tell you how the site will make money; this also isn't a business forum.  The site isn't based on outing bad people; the site isn't based on giving kudos to good people.  The reviewing is another feature which can be found on the site.  One of your questions seemed more than rhetorical: "have a right to face their accusers and produce evidence that the charges against them are false. How will you provide this?"  I've generated a few ideas on this, and they'll probably be molded and perfected during our discussions.  Thanks for your response, these are the kinds of questions I need.

Lady_Death wrote:
I think that is rather childish... I've had numerous photogs say "lets shoot on so and so date" and never give you a number or any other information then when the day rolls around act like you flaked on them... well with no information, no consistent contact... who would want to show up? Where would one show up at? Thats way too much drama... if you don't like them don't work with them... right now I've changed venues I get calls the night before for auditions or filming schedule changes just like yesterday I was told by Friday I'd be in Vancouver filming, so you never know what will pop up... Communication is the key...

The online communication will show that the photographer gave you no contact info.  When the photographer attempts to post a negative, no-show review about you, it will be reflected that this photographer did not bother to enable you to show.