Rossi Photography wrote:
I wonder, so I'll ask you.

There's a guy who calls himself a photographer here in the Detroit area. Who is known by most of the legit photographers for what he really is. Every person I've ever mentioned him to all say the same thing. But he has a way of manipulating the models. I know this firsthand because this guy has confided in me some things I don't think he'd ever want his models to know. And I made the mistake of letting him photograph me (before I knew what he is) and that did not go well. Some of you may've read about what happened in another thread. Long story short... in the middle of the shoot, he snuck behind me when I wasn't looking and pulled down my shorts.

Someone (can't remember who) posted in another thread describing him to a tee, saying these guys view the shoot as a date of sort, etc... I'll have to go find the post.

And I also question him in other areas, such as once I was at his place and I found in his computer MY photos. He saved them from my blog. I questioned him on it and he said, "Oh, I just wanted to see what you did, how you shot them...". Bullshit! I also noticed he had many, MANY females pictures saved from their myspace pages. That was a bit weird.

Now, is it right or wrong if I, or someone else, were to expose this guy to the modeling/photog community? Say on a message board such as this?

What'd you think? Would it be wrong to name him publicly? I'm not saying I'm going to. Just curious.

Going by the story you have I would go via the contact a mod system rather than doign the "outting" thing .
Those kind of threads ALWAYS turn into train wrecks and are never really all that productive.

Susi wrote:
Naming him would make you look bad.  He said, she said...it just doesn't help in the long run.

Yeah, that's what I figured.

Susi wrote:
Naming him would make you look bad.  He said, she said...it just doesn't help in the long run.

Agreed... I'm no lawyer, but naming him might be considered slander on your part.

Rossi Photography wrote:
I wonder, so I'll ask you.

There's a guy who calls himself a photographer here in the Detroit area. Who is known by most of the legit photographers for what he really is. Every person I've ever mentioned him to all say the same thing. But he has a way of manipulating the models. I know this firsthand because this guy has confided in me some things I don't think he'd ever want his models to know. And I made the mistake of letting him photograph me (before I knew what he is) and that did not go well. Some of you may've read about what happened in another thread. Long story short... in the middle of the shoot, he snuck behind me when I wasn't looking and pulled down my shorts.

Someone (can't remember who) posted in another thread describing him to a tee, saying these guys view the shoot as a date of sort, etc... I'll have to go find the post.

And I also question him in other areas, such as once I was at his place and I found in his computer MY photos. He saved them from my blog. I questioned him on it and he said, "Oh, I just wanted to see what you did, how you shot them...". Bullshit! I also noticed he had many, MANY females pictures saved from their myspace pages. That was a bit weird.

Now, is it right or wrong if I, or someone else, were to expose this guy to the modeling/photog community? Say on a message board such as this?

What'd you think? Would it be wrong to name him publicly? I'm not saying I'm going to. Just curious.

How did you get into his computer and why? You seem to have been very close to him personaly to have that kind of access. What he did was wrong,and in my view scummy. Why did you go back to his place, studio or home?

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:

How did you get into his computer and why? You seem to have been very close to him personaly to have that kind of access. What he did was wrong,and in my view scummy. Why did you go back to his place, studio or home?

(I was wondering that, myself)

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
How did you get into his computer and why? You seem to have been very close to him personaly to have that kind of access. What he did was wrong,and in my view scummy. Why did you go back to his place, studio or home?

I was at his studio using it to get some headshots for a model. After the shoot, he wanted to show me some work he did on his computer. That's when I saw the folder with MY photos and then recognized my friends myspace photo in another folder (along with some others). So, no I was not snooping through anything, or "very close" to him, as you put it.

PapaVic Photography wrote:
His own actions will eventually catch up with him eventually probably without help from you.  In your position as both model and photographer if you get in a p*ssing match with him your motyivations could be written off as professional rivalry regardless of their validity.

I wouldn't go out of my way on behalf of him one way or another were it me.

Yeah, that's what I've pretty much been saying to myself... That eventually he'll bury himself.

Was just curious what others thought. Looks that everyone's pretty much viewing it the same as I.

Rossi Photography wrote:

I was at his studio using it to get some headshots for a model. After the shoot, he wanted to show me some work he did on his computer. That's when I saw the folder with MY photos and then recognized my friends myspace photo in another folder (along with some others). So, no I was not snooping through anything.

I don't think I said you were snooping through anything at all. I was saying you seem very close to him and now you write you were using his studio as well. Sounds like a falling out between two photographers to me and as such don't put his name out there, you will regret it at some point. Very strange indeed really.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
I don't think I said you were snooping through anything at all. I was saying you seem very close to him and now you write you were using his studio as well. Sounds like a falling out between two photographers to me and as such don't put his name out there, you will regret it at some point. Very strange indeed really.

Don't try to make it into something other than what I stated.

It's not uncommon for photographers to use eachothers studios in my town. Not strange at all.

But as for... a falling out between two photographers. Yeah, when I have my shorts ripped down and find my work in his computer, I'd say that's a falling out.

GLB Graphics wrote:
Someone needs to design a "scumasspervertguywithcamera.com" web site...

All kidding aside... Just how do we expose and warn models about guys like this?

Gary

Yeah, that was my main reason for posting. I don't want to go the route of the 'he said, she said' bit. But... what do we do? Ya' know what I'm saying? Or do we do nothing and just let these people bury themself? I dunno'...

Rossi Photography wrote:
I wonder, so I'll ask you.

There's a guy who calls himself a photographer here in the Detroit area. Who is known by most of the legit photographers for what he really is. Every person I've ever mentioned him to all say the same thing. But he has a way of manipulating the models. I know this firsthand because this guy has confided in me some things I don't think he'd ever want his models to know. And I made the mistake of letting him photograph me (before I knew what he is) and that did not go well. Some of you may've read about what happened in another thread. Long story short... in the middle of the shoot, he snuck behind me when I wasn't looking and pulled down my shorts.

Someone (can't remember who) posted in another thread describing him to a tee, saying these guys view the shoot as a date of sort, etc... I'll have to go find the post.

And I also question him in other areas, such as once I was at his place and I found in his computer MY photos. He saved them from my blog. I questioned him on it and he said, "Oh, I just wanted to see what you did, how you shot them...". Bullshit! I also noticed he had many, MANY females pictures saved from their myspace pages. That was a bit weird.

Now, is it right or wrong if I, or someone else, were to expose this guy to the modeling/photog community? Say on a message board such as this?

What'd you think? Would it be wrong to name him publicly? I'm not saying I'm going to. Just curious.

If you take the information public you better be prepared for a fight, and have lots of evidence. Back someone into a corner and they'll fight -- it's just human nature. You could easily end up facing a defamation of character suit, and it's my understanding (I'm not a lawyer) that the rules of evidence in a civil case are not the same as in a criminal case -- all he has to do is show the preponderence of the evidence is in his favor.

A lot of what you listed as "a bit weird" may be weird, but it's not necessarily illegal or actionable either. I mean, how many people have had their pants pulled down as a bit of innocent horseplay between friends? I'm NOT justifying the guy by any means, but when you publicly accuse someone of wrong-doing you force them to chose between accepting public humiliation and being labeled as a pervert with all the consequences, or coming after you hard to try to salvage their own reputation. The best way to shut you down is to damage YOUR reputation, so if you have any skeletons in the closet yourself, they're coming out. If he gets a good lawyer, he will make your life totally miserable, even if you ultimately "win," which is by no means a certain thing in these kinds of cases.

So my advice: Think twice. If he's done something illegal that you have personally witnessed or have strong evidence of, take it to the authorities and let them prosecute him. If not, I'm not sure what the point is.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV, so this isn't legal advice. . . .

Paul

bang bang photo wrote:
If you take the information public, you better be prepared for a fight, and have lots of evidence. Back someone into a corner, and they'll fight -- it's human nature. You could easily end up facing a defamation of character suit, and the rules of evidence in a civil case are not the same as in a criminal case -- all he has to do is show the preponderence of the evidence is in his favor.

A lot of what you listed as "a bit weird" may be weird, but it's not necessarily illegal or actionable either. I mean, how many people have had their pants pulled down as a bit of innocent horseplay? I'm not justifying the guy by any means, but again, when you publicly accuse someone of wrong-doing, you leave them the choice between accepting humiliation, or coming after you hard. . .

Think twice. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV, so this isn't legal advice. . . .

Paul

Sound advice. I've already stated, though, I don't want to go that route.

There's a lot that plays into examples such as this. We all (those of us who take our work seriously) want to be viewed as professional, trustworthy, be respected for what we do, etc... but when there's so called photographers out there preying on models, it puts a damper on our profession. What do we do?

Rossi Photography wrote:
Sound advice. I've already stated, though, I don't want to go that route.

There's a lot that plays into examples such as this. We all (those of us who take our work seriously) want to be viewed as professional, trustworthy, be respected for what we do, etc... but when there's so called photographers out there preying on models, it puts a damper on our profession. What do we do?

I dunno. The world was a dangerous place with nasty people long before there were photographers. Every profession has its deadbeats. People know this. I think in doing any kind of business, or establishing any kind of human relationship, most of us come equipped with pretty good warning systems. I mean, please, you can't be on Model Mayhem as a model without hearing all the horror stories about GWCs, and there are countless "white knights" out there drilling it into every model's head that they shouldn't go anywhere without getting references first, without taking an escort, and so forth. How much MORE safe do you want to make the world?

The flipside of this coin is that for every TRUE story about a photographer who "done wrong," there are a bunch of gossipy false rumors being spread for whatever reason. You must have heard them -- "I was talking to this MUA, who was working with this model, and SHE said that she heard that this photographer. .. . "

At the end of the day, you can only do so much to protect people. And besides, just because people are wierd doesn't mean you should avoid working with them. I mean come on, Angelina Joli ran around with a vial of Billy Bob's blood around her neck, but you'd still shoot her, right? Don't even get me started on Jack Nicholson. . . people can be wierd without being criminals or dangerous.

I stick to my personal rule -- if I have personal, first hand information that someone is doing something that I understand to be breaking the law in a way that could harm an innocent person, I take it to the cops. Other than that, I mind my own business, and stay away from drama as much as possible. Ultimately, I think that's the best policy. If you set out to "expose pervs with cameras" who have NOT broken the law, you end up with a vigilante system at best, and could end up getting hurt badly yourself for your effort at worst.

Regards,
Paul

Rossi Photography wrote:

Don't try to make it into something other than what I stated.

It's not uncommon for photographers to use eachothers studios in my town. Not strange at all.

But as for... a falling out between two photographers. Yeah, when I have my shorts ripped down and find my work in his computer, I'd say that's a falling out.

I know the person Jodie is speaking of. I knew Jodie both before the association with the person in question and after. I'm not close to the situation, but it surprised me when I thought she was part of his "team". Yes there's more than *A* photographer in this. It was comforting to see Jodie get out of association and not surprising when she made a few general references.

I've been asked not to contact the models "managed". I've agreed that this isn't required and I steer clear - you know "the sea is full of fish". What I've observed is how much he'll talk potential models up on MySpace, and the age may not matter much either.

I'm not a photographer that goes ga-ga over models. Sorry, just not me. I encounter plenty of gorgeous women covering events around Detroit. Many of them get to know me as they see me over and over. I'm not a photographer that exchanges services for 'goodies'. If you're a model that does, then we probably aren't working together. Your goodies aren't going to pay my bills - I can't bottle up your treasures and offer them at bill collection time.

The thing that is annoys me most is this certain team's approach to model management. The profiles have nearly the same wording and you'll always see a line that the manager will be attending all of the models shoots. Now I don't know if that makes sense that every model wants this guy tagging along. I wouldn't really care provided I didn't feel like my locations and concepts were gonna be ripped off by him. Yeah - that's how I feel about it. I have a good number of photographers that I do trust and welcome shooting next to them. Listen, I've been shooting thousands of people in the two years I've created this business and I know my skills and equipment may be at an early state. I'm out there making a statement in what I do and have developed a social conciousness, and that's another trait models say they admire in what I do. I'm out creating the scene for Detroit rather than waiting for it to hit me.

So this goes out to the models coached against working with me by their manager.
- I'm sorry we won't be working together until your relationship is altered.
- I have contacted some models without realizing you were told not to work with me. Yes I have reservations about collaborating with certain people in this business. When I find my reservations echoed by other seasoned photographers (and Jodie is NOT the only one), then I know I have good grounds.
- Please do yourself the favor of realizing your FIRST shoot doesn't have to include nudity, implied, lingerie or bikini unless YOU see a need for it. Check on your new-found friend/manager. Can they hold a shoot without skin? Is it worth showing skin in that first shoot before you've even seen the results of the first photos taken?
The choice is yours ...

bang bang photo wrote:

I dunno. You know, the world was a dangerous place with nasty people long before there were photographers. People know this. I think in doing any kind of business, or establishing any kind of human relationship, most of us come equipped with pretty good warning systems. I mean, please, you can't be on Model Mayhem as a model without hearing all the horror stories about GWCs, and there are countless "white knights" out there drilling it into every model's head that they shouldn't go anywhere without getting references first, without taking an escort, and so forth. How much MORE safe do you want to make the world?

The flipside of this coin is that for every TRUE story about a photographer who "done wrong," there are a bunch of gossipy false rumors being spread for whatever reason. You must have heard them -- "I was talking to this MUA, who was working with this model, and SHE said that she heard that this photographer. .. . "

At the end of the day, you can only do so much to protect people. And besides, just because people are wierd doesn't mean you should avoid working with them. I mean come on, Angelina Joli ran around with a vial of Billy Bob's blood around her neck, but you'd still shoot her, right? Don't even get me started on Jack Nicholson. . . people can be wierd without being criminals or dangerous.

I stick to my personal rule -- if I have personal, first hand information that someone is doing something that I understand to be breaking the law, I take it to the cops. Other than that, I mind my own business, and stay away from drama as much as possible. Ultimately, I think that's the best policy. If you set out to "expose pervs with cameras" who have NOT broken the law, you end up with a vigilante system at best, and could end up getting hurt badly yourself for your effort at worst.

Regards,
Paul

Yeah, I was thinking that after I posted. There's fucked up shit all around us. Trying to stop pervs with cameras would be like trying to fight the war on drugs. It's always going to be.

Just makes me ill sometimes when I think about it. And believe me, I am not the protesting mothers against drunk drivers type. I usually just keep to myself and do my thing. But like I said, just pisses me off sometimes.

Fuzzytek Photography wrote:

I know the person Jodie is speaking of. I knew Jodie both before the association with the person in question and after. I'm not close to the situation, but it surprised me when I thought she was part of his "team". Yes there's more than *A* photographer in this. It was comforting to see Jodie get out of association and not surprising when she made a few general references.

I've been asked not to contact the models "managed". I've agreed that this isn't required and I steer clear - you know "the sea is full of fish". What I've observed is how much he'll talk potential models up on MySpace, and the age may not matter much either.

I'm not a photographer that goes ga-ga over models. Sorry, just not me. I encounter plenty of gorgeous women covering events around Detroit. Many of them get to know me as they see me over and over. I'm not a photographer that exchanges services for 'goodies'. If you're a model that does, then we probably aren't working together. Your goodies aren't going to pay my bills - I can't bottle up your treasures and offer them at bill collection time.

The thing that is annoys me most is this certain team's approach to model management. The profiles have nearly the same wording and you'll always see a line that the manager will be attending all of the models shoots. Now I don't know if that makes sense that every model wants this guy tagging along. I wouldn't really care provided I didn't feel like my locations and concepts were gonna be ripped off by him. Yeah - that's how I feel about it. I have a good number of photographers that I do trust and welcome shooting next to them. Listen, I've been shooting thousands of people in the two years I've created this business and I know my skills and equipment may be at an early state. I'm out there making a statement in what I do and have developed a social conciousness, and that's another trait models say they admire in what I do. I'm out creating the scene for Detroit rather than waiting for it to hit me.

So this goes out to the models coached against working with me by their manager.
- I'm sorry we won't be working together until your relationship is altered.
- I have contacted some models without realizing you were told not to work with me. Yes I have reservations about collaborating with certain people in this business. When I find my reservations echoed by other seasoned photographers (and Jodie is NOT the only one), then I know I have good grounds.
- Please do yourself the favor of realizing your FIRST shoot doesn't have to include nudity, implied, lingerie or bikini unless YOU see a need for it. Check on your new-found friend/manager. Can they hold a shoot without skin? Is it worth showing skin in that first shoot before you've even seen the results of the first photos taken?
The choice is yours ...

Applauds, my friend.

Rossi Photography wrote:

Yeah, I was thinking that after I posted. There's fucked up shit all around us. Trying to stop pervs with cameras would be like trying to fight the war on drugs. It's always going to be.

Just makes me ill sometimes when I think about it. And believe me, I am not the protesting mothers against drunk drivers type. I usually just keep to myself and do my thing. But like I said, just pisses me off sometimes.

I hear you! I have a pretty good sense of justice myself, and I HATE it when I see somebody hurting other people. But it's just one of those things -- imagine if you were at the doctor's and he leaned over and whispered in your ear. . . "hey, stay away from that dentist across the street, I've been hearing some bad stuff about him." And I roll my eyeballs when an auto mechanic bad-mouths the competition. How do you know who to believe?

Anyway, good luck out there!

paul

Rossi Photography wrote:
I wonder, so I'll ask you.

There's a guy who calls himself a photographer here in the Detroit area. Who is known by most of the legit photographers for what he really is. Every person I've ever mentioned him to all say the same thing. But he has a way of manipulating the models. I know this firsthand because this guy has confided in me some things I don't think he'd ever want his models to know.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to make a thread explaining how he manipulates the models and relaying what he told you in confidence but without giving his name or any info about him. That way models can know what to watch for from him or anyone else.

Rossi Photography wrote:

Don't try to make it into something other than what I stated.

It's not uncommon for photographers to use eachothers studios in my town. Not strange at all.

But as for... a falling out between two photographers. Yeah, when I have my shorts ripped down and find my work in his computer, I'd say that's a falling out.

How did I try to make it something other than what you posted? I do feel and this is just me that you two were alot closer than you say. Your on his computer, your using his studio, you shot with him. People share studios here as well, I let others use mine at times but not someone I don't know. Thats the part I find strange,that were close and now your not. Did you go to or use his studio after he pulled your shorts down? For whatever reason.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
How did I try to make it something other than what you posted? I do feel and this is just me that you two were alot closer than you say. Your on his computer, your using his studio, you shot with him. People share studios here as well, I let others use mine at times but not someone I don't know. Thats the part I find strange,that were close and now your not. Did you go to or use his studio after he pulled your shorts down? For whatever reason.

Haydn, I don't give a shit what you think, or how you feel about the situation. You nit pick just about everything every other person says in a post (I think for your own twisted amusement).

Rossi Photography wrote:

Haydn, I don't give a shit what you think, or how you feel about the situation. You nit pick just about everything every other person says in a post (I think for your own twisted amusement).

I feel the same way at times about some of the things you write in response to my threads but....
Twisted? could be but you didn't answer the question either. Did you go back to his studio for whatever reason after he pulled your shorts down. Why your so angry at me I don't know I only asked you a question and enquiring people want to know.

Ought To Be Shot wrote:

Agreed... I'm no lawyer, but naming him might be considered slander on your part.

Only if it's not true.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
I feel the same way at times about some of the things you write in response to my threads but....
Twisted? could be but you didn't answer the question either. Did you go back to his studio for whatever reason after he pulled your shorts down. Why your so angry at me I don't know I only asked you a question and enquiring people want to know.

I'm not angry at you, Hayden. Not at all. You're just words on a computer screen.

I'm not going to answer your questions because I'm not going to play along with your game. I see you pull this shit on almost every thread you participate in.

Sharon Gutowski wrote:
Out of curiosity, had you ever modeled before?  I am always a little wary of male photographers who ask me to model because I know I'm just not model material, but that is just me.  And I've been told I am too strict on that policy.

Sharon

Have I modeled before? When I was younger (18/19), I did. Not for very long, though. Got back on the other side of the camera where I belong. Lol...

Being a photog, I can understand where some might think you're too strict on your policy, but then again... being a female I can understand you being strict -- especially when there's creeps out there such as this.

Rossi Photography wrote:

I'm not angry at you, Hayden. Not at all. You're just words on a computer screen.

I'm not going to answer your questions because I'm not going to play along with your game. I see you pull this shit on almost every thread you participate in.

Hmm, still won't answer the question.  Interesting...  ;-)

Rossi Photography wrote:

I'm not angry at you, Hayden. Not at all. You're just words on a computer screen.

I'm not going to answer your questions because I'm not going to play along with your game. I see you pull this shit on almost every thread you participate in.

I think you just answered it for me.

jayedwards wrote:
Hmm, still won't answer the question.  Interesting...  ;-)

Funny how this is being turned around on me. Now, if someone who wasn't acting like an asshole asked me, I'd gladly give the answer.

Rossi Photography wrote:

Funny how thing is being turned around on me. Now, if someone who wasn't acting like an asshole asked me, I'd gladly give the answer.

ok so answer it. no one is turning it around, i want to know just "how" insulted you were when your draws got pulled down.

Rossi Photography wrote:
he snuck behind me when I wasn't looking and pulled down my shorts.

is his name al depantsue?

sorry...couldnt resist.

i dont see anything wrong with calling someone out for thier actions.  i mean...i wouldnt go into a he did this then did that......

whats wrong with sharing information?  you wouldnt think twice, and no one would have objections if you were saying how awesome he was.  and how good the work is.  then its called publicity... and encouraged.

i dont see anything wrong in saying...i shot with (insert name here) and it just wasnt a good time. 

the more words like that get out....the more he will be outed as a douchebag.

whats wrong with saying i had a bad experience with ****.  email me, ill tell you the deal as a ref.

dont take any shit.  if someone is a dickhead....dont be afraid to tell them.

unless youre talkng about me.  in that case....keep quiet.

jason messer wrote:

is his name al depantsue?

sorry...couldnt resist.

i dont see anything wrong with calling someone out for thier actions.  i mean...i wouldnt go into a he did this then did that......

whats wrong with sharing information?  you wouldnt think twice, and no one would have objections if you were saying how awesome he was.  and how good the work is.  then its called publicity... and encouraged.

i dont see anything wrong in saying...i shot with (insert name here) and it just wasnt a good time. 

the more words like that get out....the more he will be outed as a douchebag.

whats wrong with saying i had a bad experience with ****.  email me, ill tell you the deal as a ref.

dont take any shit.  if someone is a dickhead....dont be afraid to tell them.

unless youre talkng about me.  in that case....keep quiet.