Alana Skye wrote:
That would be a distorted reality without it.

diana ross howls!!!!!
;-p

Alana Skye wrote:
Never been to China... i can honestly say that.... never beennto Japan... but i CAN AND DO read and i have to functioning eyes that tell me different about some young people in Japan.

yes, you are reading the media hyped publications. My step sister is half japanese, she and i just got back from kyoto. the story is very different. she is half japanese, the second lowest form of life, saving only japanese decendants in other countries that don't speak japanese.

fyi the japanese are so repressed and f'd up, they created things like bukkake and anime because actual porn is so tabboo. at what point can we say a culture that finds shitting on people for sexual gratification on a regular basis as totally flawed. i mean i had bdsm, but bukkake, that is fucked up. not saying all japanese are in to it, but they did create the genre and ran with it. oh those kooky japanese!

Alana Skye wrote:
LOL i began another but didnt finish!! sorry. America wants to pretend to be a deserted isolated continent. But they are sadly mistaken.

Yup, oceans don't divide countries anymore like they did pre-nuke and all this advanced technology.

Alana Skye wrote:
I here you testshoot. I stand corrected.

i don't understand this.
americans would CERTAINLY like to pretend.....

3rd Floor Photography wrote:
I'm sure if we went to asia, we'd see a boatload of asian models, and if we went to india same thing, etc. etc. etc. A lot of it has to do with the audience they are trying to target. And I guess the same goes for movies and music.

FemmeArt wrote:
Do photographers discriminate against black models?

they shouldn't, at least i don't.  i know a few who do because they seem to not like black people for various reasons and some that don't like white people for even more reasons.  i've asked black models in my area to shoot with me and none of them have really replied   i don't have any at all in my port and i mean like my entire port which is really sad...

TXPhotog wrote:

Can you indeed?  Let me suggest to you two observations:

1.  Actual industry statistics show that your statement is false.  It is not "much tougher for black models to find work".  In fact, it's somewhat easier on average.  www.newmodels.com/race.html

2.  Photographers don't hire models, clients do.  Oh, I know, on this whacky world of the Internet there are photographers who hire models - but that's a very small part of the modeling marketplace.  Clients (and advertising agencies) make decisions about who "finds work", not photographers.  So the question is kind of silly anyway.

>Why? What makes it silly? It is no where as easy for models of color as it is for Whites. Newmodels is kind of silly if thats what your using for your point of view. Its a legit question,answer it dont mock it.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
In Ct. and AZ I have had no luck in finding models of color to work with me. I am Black and White in race. I really dont understand why.

You've got great work....
It must be all of those severed heads you keep in your freezer!

Brian Hillburn wrote:
But I'm not badass like Bruce.  I think anyone will drop their panties for Bruce.) 

Oh my goodness! I laughed so hard I blew wind. Excuse please(lol)

I keep hoping that Brian will hook me up with a few of his beautiful models...

In Ct. and AZ I have had no luck in finding models of color to work with me. I am Black and White in race. I really dont understand why.

Local culture.

Without reading through this thread and attending to just this one note, geography, despite the Internet, continues to play the most powerful role in how people view themselves, their surrounds, and their opportunities.  I've given up the, um, other modeling place, lol, but most of the "new model" notices it sent were coming out of the central Maryland counties and their urban anchors, Baltimore and Washington, D.C.  I'm now located in the mountains of western Maryland, a patch of bible belt on the way to Ohio, for sure, as well as a quintessential American small town, and things are a little different here, which is not to say good.  Without going into that, one may suggest art, fashion, glamour, and media inspire more interest in and around urban centers and enthusiasts just bubble up out of the population.

Cspine wrote:
I discriminate against illiterate transgendered homosexual eskimo dwarfs. I'd feel uncomfortable sharing a drinking fountain with one, they should have their own.

Wow!  What does that leave one to shoot?

FemmeArt wrote:
Do photographers discriminate against black models?

I am sure some do. I know though, that some white models are scared to come shoot with this black photographer. When I recognise this, I laugh at the fools, and move on.

Alana Skye wrote:
What do you mean, Donald? I have no experience with Japan. The ones I know of are the complete opposite of what testshoot describe but i concede on the the national culture point because i've never been there.

Unless you've been to Japan or worked with Japanese people (who are here temporary), you have no experience with the "real" Japanese culture. The one's you probably know have already been "westernized" (or "demonized" depending on your POV ). They have come here to live the American life.

In defense of Japan and it's perceived racism, they're not racists. They just believe that they (Japanese) are superior to all other races and/or cultures. That is often mistaken for racism (whether it's Japanese or New Yorkers).

MagicImagePhoto wrote:
I'm tired of the whole Black and White issue for gods sake don't forget there are Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans and the Half Breed like myself. I'm part Hispanic and part White. I shoot whome ever is open is to shoot with me. This question is so wrong. I'm gonna make a thread on why aren't there any more Latinas or Latinos on every ones pages. YOU SUCK! Wake up and get out of the racist issues. Don't turn a photographic form of art into a racist issue get a life or get out of modeling or photography. Enough said

Bravo Magic Image

WTF ???

Alana Skye wrote:
wow. you dont know me. dont say anything else about my character because you don't have any knowledge of it. Let this thread be about what its about for the sake of discussion... BUT DO NOT mention anything else about me in that way.

But we do know you and can comment. We know the "character" that you present here on MM and that's what someone might make comment of. Whoever you originally directed this at is making their comments about you and your character based on YOUR writings (and presumably your idea) that they have read here on MM

Tony Culture Photoz wrote:

I am sure some do. I know though, that some white models are scared to come shoot with this black photographer. When I recognise this, I laugh at the fools, and move on.

So white models that don't want to shoot with you are fools?
LOL...
ok folks....here we go!!!

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
It is no where as easy for models of color as it is for Whites.

And you know this how, based on what data?

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
Newmodels is kind of silly if thats what your using for your point of view.

If you have better hard data, where is it?  What actual research shows that you are right, and the article at newmodels.com is wrong?

For all the whining about how tough things are for whoever is doing the whining, the truth is things are tough for everyone.  It's very tempting to assign the reason for that to "them" - but every once in a while someone ought to actually look at the data, and not just at convenient excuses.

FemmeArt wrote:
I can definitely tell you that it is much tougher for black models to find work.

Maybe it sometimes go both ways.

Let me explain: I think black women are gorgeous, and I would absolutely love to work with them in my style of photography - but I can't - because (most of) the black people living in my city are suspicious of me, because I'm white. We have lots of young people from Cape Verde here, and most dig the hip-hop gangsta style, and for theim, I'm just a weirdo because I'm more into the gothic-rock thing. There are 3-4 of them that know me and are all fine and dandy, but most fear me, and don't want to talk to me.

So in my case, not being able to shoot with black models is not because they're black, it's because I'm white.

FemmeArt wrote:
Do photographers discriminate against black models?

TXPhotog wrote:
Clients (and advertising agencies) make decisions about who "finds work", not photographers.  So the question is kind of silly anyway.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
Why? What makes it silly?

I would think that my statement contained the answer to your question, but evidently not. 

It seems to me the very first response in this thread caught the flavor of why the question is silly:

e-string wrote:
That's kinda like asking if people discriminate against black people.

Think it through.  All of it.  Doesn't the silliness simply scream out at you?

Apparently not.  So let’s go through it:

1.  As many people have noted in this thread, for professional photographers the choice of models is usually not theirs.  The choices are made by clients, ad agencies and models themselves who choose who to pay to photograph them.  I don’t doubt that there is a photographer somewhere who may turn down paying jobs because the models are black, but I think such a person is hardly representative of the industry.  So to suggest that discrimination against black models (to the degree that it exists) is because of photographers seems to me to be placing the implied blame on the wrong people.

2. The question is inherently incapable of being answered in a meaningful way.  Is there a photographer anywhere who is prejudiced against black models?  Most assuredly.  (Some of them are black.)  It would be hard to find any characteristic of humanity that some person, photographer or not, is not prejudiced against.  But that is hardly a meaningful question.  Are there photographers who are not prejudiced against black models?  Most assuredly.  Are photographers, as a class, any more subject to prejudice against black models than the society at large?  Probably not, but given the evidence and the causes for it, how do you tell?

3.  The question as asked contains an accusation.  It necessarily will cause defensive reactions, even from those who are not prejudiced.  It’s hardly a values-neutral way of phrasing the issue.

4.  This forum shows little sign of being able to discuss such a question in a way that sheds any significant light on the issue.  Inevitably we see what we have seen, which has resulted in no useful answer to the question, but has brought out the usual intellectual biases.  Asking it here is an exercise in futility if you want to do anything other than incite silliness (or worse).

5.  Inevitably, people come into the conversation with “data” which is not data, but simply reflects their own biases or fears, or something they read which also was not real data, and they present it as “fact” to support their biases.  We have already seen statements like that here, claims about the ratios of models who get hired for advertising and for runway work that are not factual, and simply reflect the ignorance of the person making the claim.  Still, people read these claims and believe them – especially those which back up their own preconceptions.  The discussion is inherently dishonest.

6.  There are related sub-questions that might, just might, be capable of being answered here.  But by asking an accusatory, emotion-laden question for which there is no acceptable answer, that conversation is foreclosed.

Here’s an example:  Several times Alana has raised the issue of Euro-centric features being standards of beauty.  That issue is quite different from the question asked.  Although her question has been dealt with a little bit, it has largely been ignored or misunderstood.

Bruce Talbot, for instance, presented some absolutely wonderful shots in his portfolio, and they were judged against the standards of the original question, not Alana’s.  If you apply Alana’s standards to his port, what you find is exactly what she suggests:  the people in it (mostly) have dark skin, but still “Euro-style” features.  Beautiful black Europeans.  (OK, I know that’s not entirely accurate, but try getting the flavor of it without dwelling on the specific statement, and see if it’s not right.)

But that’s not the conversation we are having.  We are also not dealing with the next question raised by her assertion (one that she touches on herself):  is discrimination on the basis of a feature-set (which is more widely distributed among Caucasians) the same as discriminating against “black models”?  By Alana’s implied formulation, a black model with “white features” would not be discriminated against.  Is Bruce Talbot's portfolio evidence of "discrimination" because so few of the people in it look "African"?  So what, exactly, is "discrimination"?

For all of these reasons, the question as asked was silly.

TXPhotog wrote:

And you know this how, based on what data?


If you have better hard data, where is it?  What actual research shows that you are right, and the article at newmodels.com is wrong?

For all the whining about how tough things are for whoever is doing the whining, the truth is things are tough for everyone.  It's very tempting to assign the reason for that to "them" - but every once in a while someone ought to actually look at the data, and not just at convenient excuses.

I will give you some data TX, Go into a store, say Barnes and Nobel. Now walk over to the magazine rack. Place your hand on any magazine you care to choose and count the number of white,black and any other race models you see on the pages. Its really very simple. If you leave out the publications directed at only one group such as Jet for example you should be able to come to some understanding of this issue on your own without having someone else give you your opinion.
But its all good.

Skehrkrow wrote:
Another comment about minorities and racism:

Racism can go in every direction. General assumption is that it's "white" people that are racists vs. "black" people, but everyone can be a racist, no matter what "colour" he has - I know "yellow" people that are racist, I know "black" people that are racist, I know "black" people that don't like "yellows", "yellows" that don't like "whites", "whites" that don't like other "whites, and so on... it's endless, and pointless, racism is potentially everywhere.

As for minorities, I belong to a genuine minority, I live in Luxemburg, we have a population of 450K people, and currently there are only 200K native luxemburgish people in this country - less than 50% so we're a minority in our "own" country - hell, I can't even go to the local supermarket and speak my mothertongue because most employees are foreigners - do I complain? No, that's the beauty of multi-ethnicity - many interesting cultures living in one place. And I love it.

As a Black and White mixx I have had more racisum directed at me from blacks than whites. Except when it came to their daughters, and then everyone kind of came together on this issue.

TXPhotog wrote:

FemmeArt wrote:
Do photographers discriminate against black models?

TXPhotog wrote:
Clients (and advertising agencies) make decisions about who "finds work", not photographers.  So the question is kind of silly anyway.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
Why? What makes it silly?

I would think that my statement contained the answer to your question, but evidently not. 

It seems to me the very first response in this thread caught the flavor of why the question is silly:

Think it through.  All of it.  Doesn't the silliness simply scream out at you?

Apparently not.  So let’s go through it:

1.  As many people have noted in this thread, for professional photographers the choice of models is usually not theirs.  The choices are made by clients, ad agencies and models themselves who choose who to pay to photograph them.  I don’t doubt that there is a photographer somewhere who may turn down paying jobs because the models are black, but I think such a person is hardly representative of the industry.  So to suggest that discrimination against black models (to the degree that it exists) is because of photographers seems to me to be placing the implied blame on the wrong people.

2. The question is inherently incapable of being answered in a meaningful way.  Is there a photographer anywhere who is prejudiced against black models?  Most assuredly.  (Some of them are black.)  It would be hard to find any characteristic of humanity that some person, photographer or not, is not prejudiced against.  But that is hardly a meaningful question.  Are there photographers who are not prejudiced against black models?  Most assuredly.  Are photographers, as a class, any more subject to prejudice against black models than the society at large?  Probably not, but given the evidence and the causes for it, how do you tell?

3.  The question as asked contains an accusation.  It necessarily will cause defensive reactions, even from those who are not prejudiced.  It’s hardly a values-neutral way of phrasing the issue.

4.  This forum shows little sign of being able to discuss such a question in a way that sheds any significant light on the issue.  Inevitably we see what we have seen, which has resulted in no useful answer to the question, but has brought out the usual intellectual biases.  Asking it here is an exercise in futility if you want to do anything other than incite silliness (or worse).

5.  Inevitably, people come into the conversation with “data” which is not data, but simply reflects their own biases or fears, or something they read which also was not real data, and they present it as “fact” to support their biases.  We have already seen statements like that here, claims about the ratios of models who get hired for advertising and for runway work that are not factual, and simply reflect the ignorance of the person making the claim.  Still, people read these claims and believe them – especially those which back up their own preconceptions.  The discussion is inherently dishonest.

6.  There are related sub-questions that might, just might, be capable of being answered here.  But by asking an accusatory, emotion-laden question for which there is no acceptable answer, that conversation is foreclosed.

Here’s an example:  Several times Alana has raised the issue of Euro-centric features being standards of beauty.  That issue is quite different from the question asked.  Although her question has been dealt with a little bit, it has largely been ignored or misunderstood.

Bruce Talbot, for instance, presented some absolutely wonderful shots in his portfolio, and they were judged against the standards of the original question, not Alana’s.  If you apply Alana’s standards to his port, what you find is exactly what she suggests:  the people in it (mostly) have dark skin, but still “Euro-style” features.  Beautiful black Europeans.  (OK, I know that’s not entirely accurate, but try getting the flavor of it without dwelling on the specific statement, and see if it’s not right.)

But that’s not the conversation we are having.  We are also not dealing with the next question raised by her assertion (one that she touches on herself):  is discrimination on the basis of a feature-set (which is more widely distributed among Caucasians) the same as discriminating against “black models”?  By Alana’s implied formulation, a black model with “white features” would not be discriminated against.  Is Bruce Talbot's portfolio evidence of "discrimination" because so few of the people in it look "African"?  So what, exactly, is "discrimination"?

For all of these reasons, the question as asked was silly.

The question as asked bought out this wonderful example of free thinking by you TX. Therefore it was not a silly question.
See my point?