FemmeArt wrote:
I'm a black photographer and model.  I can definitely tell you that it is much tougher for black models to find work.  I just wonder why that is?  Heck, even my portfolio speaks to this trend, but certainly not intentionally.

This is actually something that I've wondered about too.  If you look through this site how many black models are there as compared to white or other ethnicity?  I prefer to shoot the typical fashion model (tall, slender, great lines).  I did a search in WA state for a black model a month ago and there were probably 25 models that were either 5'3 and 145 lbs or 5'8 160 lbs.  Find me a black model that's 5'8"-5'11" and 115-125lbs and I'll shoot her all day long.

I know they must be out there because it seems ANTM is swayed heavily towards black models compared to the rest of the modeling world.

UdoR wrote:

True... yet, I've got to side with TX.

No matter how long Hayden made a living with photography and fed his family, he is trying to enter a new segment which is real world fashion industry, yet, Hayden tries to tell TX how the industry ought to work.

Knowing TX, knowing the industry and having been through numerous discussions with industry newbies (models and photographers alike) over the years cleaning up misconceptions... I understand why TX is getting annoyed.

To Hayden:
There is nothing wrong with letting someone with real experience in a particular field educating you.

I shoot anything out there for years, as a martial artist, I shot many martial arts competitions in the 80's, Funny that Late Bloomer mentioned Rodney King, because last week, I covered my very first boxing event, actually, I saw my very first life event ever. https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=77676

I don't go around and tell other photojournalists who shoot boxing for years how to do it, I rather observe and shut up and hope I can pick up a tip or two when they talk.

I even asked a ringside photographer who had his tag on the ring floor before a fight what can be done, where could I stand and basically asked him for advise.

My suggestion to you, no matter how you dislike TX, you may just drop the argument, don't talk to him anymore, but read every post he made that is industry related. Do the same when Oldguysrule posts and there are a few others too.

There is nothing wrong with "not knowing yet", but a lot with "borrowing assumed knowledge from the future".

All the best

UdoR

Um Udor what assumed knowledge did I borrow? I dont dislike Tx, I dont really think about him, this is an internet debate and that is all it is. I also shoot alot of varied subjects including fashion,food,interiors,machine parts cars bikes motor racing etc. Where did I tell anyone how to shoot fashion? Where did I tell anyone I was an expert at it, I didnt someone named Tx put the words out there as mine.
As for myself making images of people with clothes on is to me the same as photographing a Harley or a car, if you can create beautiful images of one you can of the other. If someone wants to educate me on shooting fashion I have no problem with that,thank you, if someone wants to try and tell me that there are just as many chances for people of color in publishing as there are for whites I am gonna tell them they are wrong.
As for you shooting boxing matches thats really nice,well done and if you ever decide to shoot formula-1 or GP motocross or road racing or Harleys feel free to ask for my advice no problem. You should read what I wrote and not what someone says I wrote or implied, that would make what you have to say alot more valid to me. That you know Tx means very little to me really,no offense it just seems that I dont see alot of tear sheets on your or his page in any field, I see alot of images of pretty people on yours but I dont see covers? In each field of photography that I have entered I have come away with what to me is the goal,the cover or centerfold.
And I will do the same in this one, fashion. I have had alot of newbie photographers come up to me at Gp's and ask for advice and tips, I give it freely and honestly so I understand where your coming from there.And I respect you for knowing your limits as a photographer.
So all in all thats about it for me.

TIM RICKS PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I try to think of it this way, " What can I do to make a difference ? " I shoot everything and try my best to make it noticable. Only color I think about is the cast I want the overall image to have.

Thank you, well said and nice work.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:
I dont see alot of tear sheets on your or his page in any field, I see alot of images of pretty people on yours but I dont see covers? In each field of photography that I have entered I have come away with what to me is the goal,the cover or centerfold.

Fair enough Hadyn;

I may just ask you about shooting Harleys sometime because a project may come up.

I just want to address the tear sheet issue.

On my own website, I have taken down over 600 pages including tear sheet galleries in March of last year, hoping to redesign and update my website. I put up a few galleries then, but real life photography kept me so busy, that I had practically no time yet to do any completion of my site (I am not a webdesigner so it takes forever), but by now, I have so much new material that I even know less where even to begin and would have to do a complete overhaul.

As for being published with tears, I have made only a few covers, most recently with the greek model Yanna Darilis (the pretty lady in white on my MM portfolio), but mostly editorial fashion and runway shots as far as Russia and the Middle East (Alhayat), my clients have my images on their sites or in print. As a photojournalist and runway photographer, I have probably a few thousand of my shots circulating.

Now, to make this short... since February of this year, you are unable to shoot NYC Fashion Week unless you are a seriously published runway/fashion photographer and that means major publications, or you have to be registered by an accredited media outlet or a qualified photographer.

This past fashionweek in September, I had a total of three assistants registering through me and I am also heavily involved in the production of fashionshows for a number of years as well.

For the latter, you don't have tear sheets, but casting for international designers and putting Haute Couture fashionshows together (http://www.couturefashionweek.com) gives me a certain weight in knowledge about the fashion industry... tear sheets online or not.

All the best and sorry for misspelling your name initially.

UdoR

UdoR wrote:

Fair enough Hadyn;

I may just ask you about shooting Harleys sometime because a project may come up.

I just want to address the tear sheet issue.

On my own website, I have taken down over 600 pages including tear sheet galleries in March of last year, hoping to redesign and update my website. I put up a few galleries then, but real life photography kept me so busy, that I had practically no time yet to do any completion of my site (I am not a webdesigner so it takes forever), but by now, I have so much new material that I even know less where even to begin and would have to do a complete overhaul.

As for being published with tears, I have made only a few covers, most recently with the greek model Yanna Darilis (the pretty lady in white on my MM portfolio), but mostly editorial fashion and runway shots as far as Russia and the Middle East (Alhayat), my clients have my images on their sites or in print. As a photojournalist and runway photographer, I have probably a few thousand of my shots circulating.

Now, to make this short... since February of this year, you are unable to shoot NYC Fashion Week unless you are a seriously published runway/fashion photographer and that means major publications, or you have to be registered by an accredited media outlet or a qualified photographer.

This past fashionweek in September, I had a total of three assistants registering through me and I am also heavily involved in the production of fashionshows for a number of years as well.

For the latter, you don't have tear sheets, but casting for international designers and putting Haute Couture fashionshows together (http://www.couturefashionweek.com) gives me a certain weight in knowledge about the fashion industry... tear sheets online or not.

All the best and sorry for misspelling your name initially.

UdoR

I stand corrected,my apologies.
. But that is not my point now. I had alot of words I didnt say placed on my plate here by TX, in an effort to prove his point about me, that is wrong and in the grand scheme of things minor. Spelling my name only matters on the check Udor. Congratulations on your sucess and all the best in the future. Peace
Hadyn

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:

What he said.

For all of you photographers that lament or complain about the industry being racist, how many of you photograph male models, or better yet, older models?  How many of you have photos of a model over 30?..................................................................................yeah, thought so.
Ageism and sexism are just as bad as racism.

acidstudios wrote:
For all of you photographers that lament or complain about the industry being racist, how many of you photograph male models, or better yet, older models?  How many of you have photos of a model over 30?..................................................................................yeah, thought so.
Ageism and sexism are just as bad as racism.

I have and will continue to do so. I do not and will not take photos on ANYONE else's terms. I'll starve, and stay starving. And be happy doing it my way. Just like "ol' blue eyes", and Sid Vicious R.I.P.

None of them are under thirty. And look! There's even women and people of different races!












Then again I don't complain about the "industry", but I will say fuck the industry! Anybody know where I can find a job?

acidstudios wrote:

For all of you photographers that lament or complain about the industry being racist, how many of you photograph male models, or better yet, older models?  How many of you have photos of a model over 30?..................................................................................yeah, thought so.
Ageism and sexism are just as bad as racism.

Umm I have both so am I ok? You bet they are just as bad. When you get down to it who buys the clothes that are shown in the mags for the most part? Women over 30 trying to look under 30. As for male models I see plenty in the mags when it is either mens clothes or womens and they are trying to create a feeling of love lust or hope for those who may purchase the clothing. As for the portfolios here on MM your correct their are not alot of male models. I try to shoot both when I have a TFCD going. I like the interaction of the two male and female. I truly dont understand why so many photographers dont shoot men for their portfolios its a shame really.

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:

I stand corrected,my apologies.

Totally accepted... and to point out... as much experience I have in the real world industry... I am not worthy to hold water for TXPhotog.

This dude is too humble and that's why he is not throwing around big names... but it means a lot that he kinda respect my opinions on the fora, just because he is who he is and I won't disclose who this icon is.

We on MM should be glad that this abrasive SOB is here and shares his knowledge...

UdoR wrote:

Totally accepted... and to point out... as much experience I have in the real world industry... I am not worthy to hold water for TXPhotog.

This dude is too humble and that's why he is not throwing around big names... but it means a lot that he kinda respect my opinions on the fora, just because he is who he is and I won't disclose who this icon is.

We on MM should be glad that this abrasive SOB is here and shares his knowledge...

You should, I dont worship anyone, nor do I hold anyones water. If that is how you move forward thats great. What Tx has done in the past means nothing to me at all. Just as nothing I have done in the past means anything to him or you. In my opinion he is a blowhard plain and simple. Abrasive is one thing, stupid is another and he has both covered very well. When I started out several people told me who I should worship or whatever, I didnt and achieved what I did on my own because my work was as good or better than those who wanted someone to kiss their ass.
If your retired, retire and get out of the way. I have looked at his port and quite frankly it looked senile to me. I dont know what happened to this Icon.
peace
Hadyn

Edwiina wrote:
Ok

Ive had enough

I want to grab the thread by the bull horns here and bring it right back to the question.

The answer is from my experiences so excuse me if you find this hard to beleive.

I work as a fashion model in London, i was signed to a well known agency for 6months after that i decided to leave and be represented by another. . .
Why? well it goes something like this.

After running around london ive constantly being told "you know, you will only get work part time because of your skin tone" "black models dont get much work" "its really hard for a black model" I finally got signed to Agency X (which i wont name). First thing they told me was that i was gonna be a part time model because im black and its not goin to be easy...i said fine and 6months later, i left. The reason i left was because I was forwarded to sooo MANY test shoots and so many castings, so many runway shows etc etc etc that it became a big concern as to why i was still only holding a comp card with 3 ugly polariod pictures on it, that i had to ask my bookers what was up. There answer was "its your skin tone"...

Now although i knew this is the fact, i dont think the non black people actually understand racism. Racism is concious and unconcious, because of stigma, comfort and expectations, the reason why white photographers dont want to use black models for big campaigns is because they have fear that their collaboration with the black model will not fulfill the buyers need because of the shock of not being able to relate to this black image.

We are even constantly pressured to have a weave that is of an european appearance just to get a good picture because nobody knows how to work with our natural hair. I go to shoots and i do my own hair because they only ignorantly know how to work with straight hair.

Runway shows cast about 20 white models and 2 black models MAX.
and guess what, this is what i have learned from WHITE models and later realised to be true.

Why is it that only 2 models at most get casted for top designer shows?

Why is it that my white model friends have numerous castings every single day and me and my black model friends dont?

Why is it that white models have high fashion test shoots and black models get the hair test shoots?

Why is it that when it comes to black models, the names that come to mind is naomi campbell, tyra banks, iman and alek wek. What about the other hundreds?!

And in response to that person who said your not gonna see a white model doing roccawear or something, im sure victoria beckham did a campaign 2years ago. And Apple bottoms are directed at a market for people with BOOTY (hence the name) everybody knows black females are known for having a full round bottom.
So what can you say in defence for Louis Vitton, Gucci, Stella Mccartney, Roberto Cavalli? What market were they aiming for that a black model couldnt reach out to?

Another thing, i do not respect or appreciate people in here taking this thread as a chance to get patronising and jokey about a subject extrememly upsetting to alot of black models and black people in the fashion industry, you need to appreciate that its hard being passionate about something you love that discriminates what you about.

Racism is everywhere ESPECIALLY where image is concerned.

Well said.  I think although there are more models of color working now. 
Designers and others believe that they can use White models all day long
and still everybody will buy their products but sometimes using Black models
means that only Black people will look and buy whats shown.  This is why even
covers for the major fashion rags tend to show White models.  One thing I do
want to bring into focus is that if you don't like how a industry treats you either
fight to change it don't buy the product or do your own thing.  There are enough
Black consumers to support a Black or minority fashion publication.  Nope
Ebony and Essence don't cout and Essence isn't Black owned anymore.  One more
thing I'd like to see is more Black models working with or at least respecting Black
photographers.

acidstudios wrote:

For all of you photographers that lament or complain about the industry being racist, how many of you photograph male models, or better yet, older models?  How many of you have photos of a model over 30?..................................................................................yeah, thought so.
Ageism and sexism are just as bad as racism.

L!M!A!O!!!!!
what if you are averse to flabby, old, white people?

Hadyn Lassiter wrote:

You should, I dont worship anyone, nor do I hold anyones water. If that is how you move forward thats great. What Tx has done in the past means nothing to me at all. Just as nothing I have done in the past means anything to him or you. In my opinion he is a blowhard plain and simple. Abrasive is one thing, stupid is another and he has both covered very well. When I started out several people told me who I should worship or whatever, I didnt and achieved what I did on my own because my work was as good or better than those who wanted someone to kiss their ass.
If your retired, retire and get out of the way. I have looked at his port and quite frankly it looked senile to me. I dont know what happened to this Icon.
peace
Hadyn

Nah... Hadyn;

You misunderstand what I was saying... I don't kiss TX's ass or "worship" him or anyone else, I don't move "forward" by doing so, he and I don't work together, but we both shoot NYC Fashionweek. That's not how it works.

I have made an analogy with "holding the water" in terms of knowledge and experience, pointing out that he knows more than me and I am quite knowledgable.

If you are a real professional... you should care what others did in the past (his past is not that long ago and he is still shooting runway) simply because that gives credence to what someone says.

I want to end this argument, it seems to me that you don't want to listen to experienced people, since experience is the knowledge that results from what you have done in the past.

Yet, you offered me advise if I ever want to shoot Harley Davidsons... why? Because you have done it so many times that you have the experience, so... would I listen to your advise? Hell'yeah!

Does that mean I "worship" you? Absolutely not, I've met grander people than you and I don't worship them.

All the great people I have met, have one thing in common, they are humble about themself and respect others and are constantly trying to learn from others... and I am not talking about the midlevel to successful convenient store clerk, but people who won multiple Emmy's, Grammy's etc. (people I directly work with and who respect my work).

On the other hand, there are people who just think that they are it... having a chip on their shoulder, are jealous of others work, talking down about others and think that they just know everything... and those may achieve a certain level of success and feed their families... but you know what... that's where their success usually hits a ceiling.

So... this said I bid you farewell...

... and toodles

UdoR

P.S.: There is also the possibility that you don't know what "worship" means, so here:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=worship&gwp=13

wor·ship (wûr'shĭp) pronunciation
n.

   1.
         1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
         2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
   2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
   3. often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

Vito wrote:
Well the problem of being "predjudiced" against black models should clear up now with the advent of the digital SLR. Black models just didn't come out right with old "film" style cameras. As we all know, racisim in photography was started by Kodak. All their films were specifically balanced for the caucasian skin tone. So, racism in photography is all Kodaks fault. Yeah...that's the ticket.

Buck passed!

(big smile)

Beach Photography wrote:
but what does everyone think about racist photographers who use photoshop?

If a racist photographer took a picture of a black person.. would they photoshop them to be white? Purple?

CICADA MOTION PICTURES wrote:

Ahhh... The tupping of the white ewe. Yes. Tis a very pleasurable experience. I recommend it to any and all of my brothers. It will knock the racist instantaneously from your loins, and certainly from the loins of the "others".

Lighten up people, and please start laughing about this now. And then take Maxwell Digi's advice and grab the nearest non you looking person and... Get busy. Knockin boots. Hittin skins. What ever your particular culture calls it, and let's make the world a nice shade of golden brown!

Unless you're gay, and then you have to adopt. But please don't be an intolerant gay racist. I don't think I could handle that. I really don't.

Hmm ... one more thing I've never had the pleasure of doing.

ModelKatHays wrote:

Hmm ... one more thing I've never had the pleasure of doing.

Hmmm....

Doug Lester wrote:

Do black models discriminate against white photographers? That's just as valid a question and from my own personal experience is even more valid. I've had a number of black models initiate contact with me and after they learned I'm white I never hear from them again. I'm located in the metro Atlanta area and with a more than 50% black population, so why are 90% of the ladies who choose to shoot with me non black? I'm a very competent retired pro photographer with a good reputation and an international publication/exhibition history, so isn't that 'model' discrimination?

People do discriminate regardless of race, sex etc.  There are white models that will only shoot with white photographers.  There are some black models that will only shoot with black photographers.  It is the same way that there are some white photographers will only shoot with white models.  Hell, some male photographers don't even shoot male models!.   People choose to work with others whom they feel more comfortable with.

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

Not intentionally.  Right.  So do you think other people do it intentionally?

Photographers shoot the type of model the client wants.  Or, if there is no client, they shoot the type of model they want. 

I can honestly say that I have not had a single job in the past two weeks and every time I look through castings, here or elsewhere, they usually specify wanting non-"white" models.  The most popular models are Asians, I think.

Is it because photographers hate all races besides Asian races?
No.

That is because most male photographers have this thing for asian female.