oldguysrule wrote:
MM isn't myspace? how so?

being paid $50 to take one's top off does not a professional model make. taking it off for free does not an amateur make, and never taking it off does not a wannabe make... cuts both ways btw... photographers are mostly nevergonnabe's on the net.

not sure why any of this surprises anyone

just say no to tfp

MM is more specific and breaks down more.

What if you take your top off for somebody taking/drawing pictures? What if you get enough $50 bills from it to support yourself? 

What if you work with models or photographers in exchange for prints, but call it something else?

theda wrote:
MM is more specific and breaks down more.

good point... same approach to a smaller demographic... less $$ so more tech issues

theda wrote:
What if you take your top off for somebody taking/drawing pictures? What if you get enough $50 bills from it to support yourself?

your price would no longer be $50 per

theda wrote:
What if you work with models or photographers in exchange for prints, but call it something else?

Thank you!... and I would bet big money that if that were the case it would be someone actually interested in a trade arrangement rather than 'something for nothing' which is what people think TFP/CD is about.

Jeff Genung wrote:
No more TFCD or TFP stuff for me. I am sick of models either not showing up or wanting to play f-ing phone tag or not reading their e-mail.

If you want to be professional then SHOW UP. If you want to be paid ever, then READ YOUR EMAIL.

I have too many paying clients and friends that will happily let me run an extra roll of film with to try something new to bother with you any more.

I am giving myself ulcers attempting to be nice to women that I would love to have model for me. I am giving myself headaches attempting to bend over backwards to accomodate your wishes and schedules. My fingers are raw from e-mailing into a black hole that I never hear back from. My ear is in pain from listening to your phone ring when you never answer it. My forehead bleeds from banging it against the wall to rid myself of your stupidity.

I would never do that! Plus, you have such orginal style of photgraphy.

-Miss Beth

Legacys 7 wrote:
Trust me I know how you feel. I had a model on here that I wanted to ring that bitch's neck. I got tired of the model calling me with these wacky ass excuses and then you find out that a sucker photographer buys the b.s. sob stories that she sells, when her hoe card is peeked.

I put a stop to this b.s. I now am requesting a deposit. My models understand and don't have a problem with this. I have chosen not to charge for my work yet until I get my portfolio to where I really want it. Something that no one has seen yet.

Cut your loss and move on. It'll just make you more angry and can become very expensive. There are some valuable models on here. I have been blessed to have worked with some who are excited to shoot and want to shoot again. One of my models is now a good friend. And I do highly recommend her because she's excited to shoot and don't play games when it comes to taking care of business.

Legacy 7, is on target here.  Part of the problem is that no matter how much
a model has bullshit one photographer another one is willing to accept her.
Oh please pretty model let me take your photo.  I wanted to also express
one more thing.  Some of you really need to not offer all the mindless TFP'S.
Don't get me wrong if you have a good ideal or concept or if its a great model
but why do it if its more of the usual.  Some of you have the kinds of books
any photographer would envy yet you continue to at times waste time dealing
with no show models.  Before you offer yet another TFP offer ask yourself
why.  If its to stay busy take a photo class or a Photoshop course.  If its to
experiment then use a friend or family member.  Save your TFP time and effort,
first for those who will help you improve your work and second for those who
appreciate you.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Trust me I know how you feel. I had a model on here that I wanted to ring that bitch's neck. I got tired of the model calling me with these wacky ass excuses and then you find out that a sucker photographer buys the b.s. sob stories that she sells, when her hoe card is peeked.

I put a stop to this b.s. I now am requesting a deposit. My models understand and don't have a problem with this. I have chosen not to charge for my work yet until I get my portfolio to where I really want it. Something that no one has seen yet.

Cut your loss and move on. It'll just make you more angry and can become very expensive. There are some valuable models on here. I have been blessed to have worked with some who are excited to shoot and want to shoot again. One of my models is now a good friend. And I do highly recommend her because she's excited to shoot and don't play games when it comes to taking care of business.

wow might want to calm down a bit as this pent up anger could scare some models, i know It would me! just an idea...

ntyme photography wrote:
I can relate to what you're saying. It seems the ones that pay are the ones that show most tymes. People, including "models," put a value on money. If they are willing to pay, they usually have more respect for your time and they're. That's why I do a limited amount of tfcd work. Maybe photographers need to cut back on the number of tfcd work that they do, then "models" will place more value on a shoot when they are able to get one.

I agree completely. We no longer shoot TFPs, except by invitation only. I'm very selective with whom I work, now, as my paying business is more than I can handle, quite frankly.

We do offer a substantially reduced rate for a 3 hour glamour shoot for models who need to update their port, however no more TFPs.  Quite frankly, unless the model has potential for a project and/or client I'm working on or with, then I no longer will give away my time for free.

I agree that all photographers should drastically limit or eliminate their TFPs, unless a truly exceptional model comes along. 

Just my opinion.

Tim

E Patrick Williams wrote:

Well u got me there... but still photographers should still take things serious not just brushing things off cause u didn't get paid.

You are absolutely correct. It's a trade and both sides need to deliver on their part.

Just like the OP's unfortunate story is sad, there are sad tales from the model's side too.

Lack of professionalism is not limited to only models, it certainly applies to photographers , and of course all people.  Expect that a certain no. of models, photographers, hair stylists, mua's will not be up to expectations, but don't overgeneralize to everyone.

Dan

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Just for shits and giggles take a look at some of the model profiles.  Notice
how many say no TFP at all or only with exceptional photographers.  Hinting
usually unless it means a tear sheet shooting with most of us ain't going to
happen without some money.  Why is that?  Why are models so comfortable
saying that not only won't they pay but they don't want to do TFP.  Its because
many get so many offers that they take photographers for granted.  They can't
always tell the difference between photographers.  They also feel that when
we shoot them we benefit if by nothing else just being in their presence.  The
problem isn't models its us.  I means as a group. As long as large numbers of
us offer endless TFP shoots models will have little respect for us.

I beg to differ.

The reason I put that I want to shoot TFP with only exceptional photographers is because that is exactly what I want to do. That doesnt mean I'm always expecting a tear or some famous professional photographer to take his time to shoot with me for free...i'm not even a professional model. It just simply means, if you have no technique, no sense of lighting....no style, originality, concept or MEANING to the photographs in your port, please don't expect tfp. To me an exeptional photographer is someone who has a true creative eye and also has some sort of general knowledge to back it up. I'm not always looking for that high fashion, studio, agency styled work. I like people who have direction- who don't just take a picture. Sure everyone has to start somewhere...but everyone needs to walk before they run- this includes photographers, models and mua's.

I would gladly pay for awesome professional pictures- but I truly don't have the money, just as some photographers don't have the money to pay models. Which is why tfp can be benefitial to both parties. I always ask photographers i'd love to work with for a tfp shoot, even if they seem out of my range....not because I think I deserve a free shoot, or that I think i'm some special girl....but if you don't ask for things....you'll never get them And when they say no, but are polite and repsond and tell me their rates...I always write them down and add them to my favorites- because if I ever do have spare money (which I save slowly but surley) you better believe they will be the people i'm paying....not the people who ignored me or took offense to a simple question.

I can say that I have gone out of my way to shoot with photographers...and I think both them and I could agree we had a great time. I've showed up on time and had great shoots even when I was on vacation in a different state. I've traveled 2 hours to shoot with photographers because I love doing it! But- i'll be honest here and also say that I have flaked out before, and it was a great photographer on a shoot I wanted to do- and would still do in a heartbeat! It was not intentional though, and I apologized to him...people are only human! Sometimes things really do come up. I was in an even worse situation because my internet and phone got turned off and I was pretty much cut off to the outside world. Sometimes life gets a little rough and modeling isn't the main thing on someones mind. Sometimes people really do forget, even though there really is no excuse to missing out on something you were supposed to do. As soon as I realized I was so embarrassed I didn't even want to seek out calling the photographer.....but in the end explained myself.

My whole point is that you really can't judge all models to be a certain way. Everyone is different and it is your responsibility to have a good judge of character. It is normal for things to go wrong sometimes, it is normal for people to make mistakes....but if it is a reoccuring thing, maybe turn the magnifying glass around and check yourself and what you could be doing better to prevent this.

Cristina Ashley wrote:
Oh how the internet has complicated life.

Everyone always has to many options.

now if those with the too many options took the time to understand them properly and how to make use of them?... perhaps a less confusing outcome

question/riddle... does it strike anyone else as cynical perfection that the information age's arrival appears to be conincident with an almost universal inability to parse, distill, and comprehend the information itself?...

ok back to the topic

StudioSeventeen wrote:
MANY have no intention of ever shooting and just want the attention.

If you notice they have been a member of a model site for months/years and
never updated photos or done any shoots.

Its all about attention............

message TAG

You got mail

"MY"space

me me me.......

That has been my experiance for the most part. Models love the attention, agree to everything, pull a no show/no contact, and then act like nothing was wrong and can we do it again?  I have been watching a couple of models in my area looking for TFP for over a year and nothing has changed on their page.

Thankfully I can go to Miami Beach and shoot all the women I want.
http://www.pbase.com/lautermilch/mbdaytime

E Patrick Williams wrote:

please... my pictures are never edited when i get them even when the photographer says he/she is gonna edit them. The only editing that get's done on my pics are resizing them so i can't get them printed out which pisses me the fuck off!

Ask for your money back.

StudioSeventeen wrote:
MANY have no intention of ever shooting and just want the attention.

If you notice they have been a member of a model site for months/years and
never updated photos or done any shoots.

Its all about attention............

message TAG

You got mail

"MY"space

me me me.......

So right! It's funny. I can't count the number of times I get a message or comment on myspace from a so-called model saying they want to setup a shoot and I'm like, 'yeah, yeah... uh huh. Whatever...'. I can pretty much weed out the ones who I know just like the attention. Rarely do I take them serious on myspace when asking for a shoot. Besides, I network on myspace for band work, not really model shoots. But yeah, I'm rambling. You're right! Lol..

Jeff Genung wrote:
There is a 16 year old model on this site that has the following on her page

I am dependable, and will let you know well in advance if I am going to be late or can't make a shoot.

That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one! LMAO!!!

Michael Barrett wrote:
A great case in point...super bright models who have no idea what we as photographers go through!

Do you know how many images we might take @ a shoot? 600? Maybe a thousand? Maybe more, who knows!?!

Do you know how long it takes to go through the images? To work with them in photoshop? Takes more than five minutes brother!

That's why I shoot with film and I know that you are speaking of shooting on digital because only a wet-behind-the-ears rank amateur would shoot hundreds of images on film just for a test shoot.  I have a limited number of frames (film itself costs money and it costs money to process) in which I have to create at least some workable images.  The trouble with digital is that it breeds the "quantity is better than quality" mentality and discipline goes right to pot.

As has been suggested earlier - try to gauge a model's sincerity, enthusiasm and determination with some sort of pre-shoot interview (preferably in person).

JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER

Jeff Genung wrote:
No more TFCD or TFP stuff for me. I am sick of models either not showing up or wanting to play f-ing phone tag or not reading their e-mail.

If you want to be professional then SHOW UP. If you want to be paid ever, then READ YOUR EMAIL.

I have too many paying clients and friends that will happily let me run an extra roll of film with to try something new to bother with you any more.

I am giving myself ulcers attempting to be nice to women that I would love to have model for me. I am giving myself headaches attempting to bend over backwards to accomodate your wishes and schedules. My fingers are raw from e-mailing into a black hole that I never hear back from. My ear is in pain from listening to your phone ring when you never answer it. My forehead bleeds from banging it against the wall to rid myself of your stupidity.

I find hitting a pillow to be helpful with anger management.

-D

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Just for shits and giggles take a look at some of the model profiles.  Notice
how many say no TFP at all or only with exceptional photographers.  Hinting
usually unless it means a tear sheet shooting with most of us ain't going to
happen without some money.  Why is that?  Why are models so comfortable
saying that not only won't they pay but they don't want to do TFP.  Its because
many get so many offers that they take photographers for granted.  They can't
always tell the difference between photographers.  They also feel that when
we shoot them we benefit if by nothing else just being in their presence.  The
problem isn't models its us.  I means as a group. As long as large numbers of
us offer endless TFP shoots models will have little respect for us.  Try getting a
TFP mechanic or a TFP haircut.  Even when some schools offer reduced payment
because its students doing the work (Some dental schools do) you still have
to pay.  Maybe a typical dental visit with a crown might cost $500.00 a school
might charge $250.00 but its not free.  I also offer TFP shoots but I will start
to take a better look at what I'm doing and maybe more of us should.

BRAVO!!!! *applauds*

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Jeff Genung wrote:
No more TFCD or TFP stuff for me. I am sick of models either not showing up or wanting to play f-ing phone tag or not reading their e-mail.

If you want to be professional then SHOW UP. If you want to be paid ever, then READ YOUR EMAIL.

I have too many paying clients and friends that will happily let me run an extra roll of film with to try something new to bother with you any more.

I am giving myself ulcers attempting to be nice to women that I would love to have model for me. I am giving myself headaches attempting to bend over backwards to accomodate your wishes and schedules. My fingers are raw from e-mailing into a black hole that I never hear back from. My ear is in pain from listening to your phone ring when you never answer it. My forehead bleeds from banging it against the wall to rid myself of your stupidity.

I totally agree with you...but what do you think about male models. HA!

I know it's from Zoolander, that's the joke. Come on!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Just for shits and giggles take a look at some of the model profiles.  Notice
how many say no TFP at all or only with exceptional photographers.  Hinting
usually unless it means a tear sheet shooting with most of us ain't going to
happen without some money.  Why is that?  Why are models so comfortable
saying that not only won't they pay but they don't want to do TFP.  Its because
many get so many offers that they take photographers for granted.  They can't
always tell the difference between photographers.  They also feel that when
we shoot them we benefit if by nothing else just being in their presence.  The
problem isn't models its us.  I means as a group. As long as large numbers of
us offer endless TFP shoots models will have little respect for us.  Try getting a
TFP mechanic or a TFP haircut.  Even when some schools offer reduced payment
because its students doing the work (Some dental schools do) you still have
to pay.  Maybe a typical dental visit with a crown might cost $500.00 a school
might charge $250.00 but its not free.  I also offer TFP shoots but I will start
to take a better look at what I'm doing and maybe more of us should.

Another thing I want to add a perfect example relating to what you said...

A few months back, over at OMP there was this model hitting up all the local photogs looking for TFCD. She left a 'desire to work with' and sent me an e-mail asking for a TFCD. I was dead set on absolutely no TFCD through the summer, so I told her in a polite way I wasn't available for that, gave her my rates and offered her a quote on a shoot. Of course, I heard nothing back after that. About a week later, I noticed she left a 'desire to work with' on my friend's port and a few others. I wrote him told him she hit me up the week before and that I told her no. At the time my friend was getting really frustrated because he wasn't getting much paying work. So, I told him, "If she hits you up for a TFCD, tell her no, charge her"... leave her thinking that if she hit up enough photogs for TFCD and they told her no, she'd be left with no option but to pay for her shoot, rather than expecting it for free. I was trying to help my friend out. It worked, but kinda' backfired and didn't help my friend out because after she got so many "no's", she come back to me and accepted my offer. I felt bad accepting the shoot because I was trying to help the guy out, but... Hey, it's a business. Lol...*shrugs*

Michael Raveney wrote:
wow might want to calm down a bit as this pent up anger could scare some models, i know It would me! just an idea...

I'm not concerned about that nor am I concerned about your instigating. I've been doing this long enough to not let some one get the best of me in this business, which my post that you are reading states this as well as suggest to the other photographers about not letting it get to them. If you are scared, that's your call. My credentials speak for itself.