Ivy88 wrote:
WOW is anyone watching the new season of America's Next Top Model. Short Season. And yes, they do have a division for short models under 5'7"..hence the point of the show and them working with that agency.

But yes, obviously that was a scam.

  No, because it's a JOKE.

ANTM is a LIE.  It is NOT the real world.  NONE of the ANTM winners are working as models, and like Rachel said there was one 5'3" girl on the new show & she was rapidly eliminated.  The point "short season" is a PLOY to sell a fantasy to people like the OP in order to keep the ratings high, it DOES NOT reflect the real world.

There is NO "Petite" division.  They have a commercial division that has models down to 5'6" working in it, and a VERY few (mostly Asian) who're shorter than 5'6" by an inch or so.  There're no 5'3" models "rocking the runway" or getting steady paid commercial print work.  Those few (and it's a VERY few, if you read the info & links posted) shorter ladies working it did NOT have to pay $1800 for a portfolio.

You're fostering the sort of misinformation that lead the OP to think there was a chance this was true.

SLE Photography wrote:

  No, because it's a JOKE.

ANTM is a LIE.  It is NOT the real world.  NONE of the ANTM winners are working as models, and like Rachel said there was one 5'3" girl on the new show & she was rapidly eliminated.  The point "short season" is a PLOY to sell a fantasy to people like the OP in order to keep the ratings high, it DOES NOT reflect the real world.

There is NO "Petite" division.  They have a commercial division that has models down to 5'6" working in it, and a VERY few (mostly Asian) who're shorter than 5'6" by an inch or so.  There're no 5'3" models "rocking the runway" or getting steady paid commercial print work.  Those few (and it's a VERY few, if you read the info & links posted) shorter ladies working it did NOT have to pay $1800 for a portfolio.

You're fostering the sort of misinformation that lead the OP to think there was a chance this was true.

+1

Photography by BE wrote:
I am still confused as to why Wilhelmina, would have a scam agency linked from their own  web site and clal them an "affiliate".  Ok, money you say, but it just makes no sense unless they are so hard up that they must resort to those tactics.
Maybe that is the case, but sooner or later won't something like that get around.. word of mouth?

Here's the way it works.  In small to mid-size markets, where the major agencies do not serve, there're a host of semi-legitimate agencies.  They cover things like local fashion shows, ads for small chains that might have 3 or 4 locations in one region, etc.  Smaller jobs, smaller pay, lower frequency... and usually even more demands for specific "types."

Because there is less work, these agencies CANNOT survive on what they make booking their models.  So, in order to pay their bills, they often operate "modeling schools" (in some cases this even includes an organization like John Robert Powers or Barbizon being a small-scale agency that books some limited work), take part in "talent searches" (where the models pay to be "scouted"), or operate as portfolio mills (as the ones who contacted the OP seem to be doing).

They will "sign" almost anyone who'll buy their classes, pay for their searches, or buy a fancy but useless portfolio.  That doesn't mean their people will get any WORK, or even that they're actively trying to GET them work.  Hence why I call them "semi-legit." 

Wilhelmina is NOTORIOUS for licensing their name to these organizations.  Here locally their affiliate is a modeling school that will take $1500-5000 from anyone for classes & call them "signed."  They key is that if it's someone they think really CAN get work, they DON'T charge them***... and use that as a selling point to others.  If the affiliate the OP posted about thought she would make them billable hours $$, they would've done her portfolio for FREE.  They don't think she'll get work, so they're getting cash up front.

If you read thru www.newmodels.com it explains quite a bit of this.



*** Point of clarity, this is NOT to say that, in the US, legit agencies never charge up front.  They can & do charge fees up front in many cases but they don't sell classes or $1800 portfolios.  Again, this's where knowing how it all works is the difference between a legit charge & getting ripped off.

WILHELMINA HARMAN AGENCY
101 S. 38th Street
Harrisburg, PA 1711
Contact: Kelli Harman
T: 717.234.4417
F: 717.233.7689
www.wilhelminaofpa.com

However, it is not owned by the main agency, they only license the name.

Also, there is no "petite" division at the main agency in New York.

http://www.wilhelmina.com/about_divisions.cfm

At 5'3", unless you're a celebrity or a freak of nature, you're not going to get work in major campaigns.

Honestly, think about what you're dealing with. These are businesses. They put the "STAR MACHINE" sticker over the "MEAT GRINDER" label on the side of the machine to sell more tickets.

Ivy88 wrote:
WOW is anyone watching the new season of America's Next Top Model. Short Season. And yes, they do have a division for short models under 5'7"..hence the point of the show and them working with that agency.

But yes, obviously that was a scam.

America's next top model can have a season for purple models who weigh over 300 lbs and are under 4'8".  I thought we all agreed that this is a reality show, not an accurate represenation of the world of modelling.

EDIT:  were on the participating agencies sites (Usually Ford and Elite on ATNM) does it say that they have a divison for short models?

AcmeStudios wrote:
After reading the OPs profile and her responses in the forums I think she needs to send them the $1,800 then sit next to the phone.

It could be her big break, but what do I know.

SLE Photography wrote:
[Here's the way it works.  In small to mid-size markets, where the major agencies do not serve, there're a host of semi-legitimate agencies.  They cover things like local fashion shows, ads for small chains that might have 3 or 4 locations in one region, etc.  Smaller jobs, smaller pay, lower frequency... and usually even more demands for specific "types."

.snip...

Thanks, that seems logical.  Do all agencies have this sort of licensing?

As I say, it seems that sooner or later word would get around, and the agencies who do this  "licensing to semi legit people" would not be very popular. 

On the other hand, there are probably enough new models, with high hopes, to keep them in business for years.

WILHELMINA HARMAN AGENCY
101 S. 38th Street
Harrisburg, PA 1711
Contact: Kelli Harman
T: 717.234.4417
F: 717.233.7689
www.wilhelminaofpa.com

Have Pentax Will Travel wrote:
FYI, that agency is an actual affiliate: http://www.wilhelmina.com/licensees.cfm

However, it is not owned by the main agency, they only license the name.

Also, there is no "petite" division at the main agency in New York.

http://www.wilhelmina.com/about_divisions.cfm

At 5'3", unless you're a celebrity or a freak of nature, you're not going to get work in major campaigns.

Honestly, think about what you're dealing with. These are businesses. They put the "STAR MACHINE" sticker over the "MEAT GRINDER" label on the side of the machine to sell more tickets.

(I rearranged your order a bit so the quotes wouldn't break.)

Yep.  It really IS an affiliate... but see my post above regarding how the affiliates operate, like the one here that's also a "school."  All that the affiliate status means is that they DO get some legit local work for the tiny select percentage who qualify, the rest pay outrageous sums for portfolios or classes to cover costs.

Alexandra Dennis wrote:

you're 100% wrong..they have a petite model division!!

& I'm sorry, I spelled it wrong..

here's their main website..

www.modelingpa.com

No they do NOT because they are a Scam
Petite is not shorter then 5'7

Photography by BE wrote:
Thanks, that seems logical.  Do all agencies have this sort of licensing?

As I say, it seems that sooner or later word would get around, and the agencies who do this  "licensing to semi legit people" would not be very popular. 

On the other hand, there are probably enough new models, with high hopes, to keep them in business for years.

No, it's pretty uncommon.  Wilhelmina's best known for it.  The other major example is one I mentioned, John Robert Powers, which's a name that's become synonymous with scams & "modeling schools" world wide.  JRP was a legit guy, founded real agencies, and all that, but sold licensing of his name YEARS ago.

Biana_Libertine wrote:
America's next top model can have a season for purple models who weigh over 300 lbs and are under 4'8".  I thought we all agreed that this is a reality show, not an accurate represenation of the world of modelling.

EDIT:  were on the participating agencies sites (Usually Ford and Elite on ATNM) does it say that they have a divison for short models?

SLE Photography wrote:

WILHELMINA HARMAN AGENCY
101 S. 38th Street
Harrisburg, PA 1711
Contact: Kelli Harman
T: 717.234.4417
F: 717.233.7689
www.wilhelminaofpa.com

(I rearranged your order a bit so the quotes wouldn't break.)

Yep.  It really IS an affiliate... but see my post above regarding how the affiliates operate, like the one here that's also a "school."  All that the affiliate status means is that they DO get some legit local work for the tiny select percentage who qualify, the rest pay outrageous sums for portfolios or classes to cover costs.

have you ever seen the bills of models with top ten NY fashion agencies for the tests they shoot, the model apartment they stay in? the portfolio they get to put prints in? the prints they get to put in that portfolio? the compcards they have printed? the packages they get that comp included in sent to a client? the messenger fees they pay to have their book sent around the city? the airfare and hotel and travel expenses they pay to get shipped overseas? etc.

its way more than what a modeling agency in PA can get from someone, and while it comes out of money the model makes, they are still paying it, tens of thousands of dollars a year at times is not at all uncommon.

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.NYPhotographics.com

Alexandra Dennis wrote:
I happen to know a girl who is signed with them, she's 5'6 & getting plenty of jobs.

Alright. So take her advice and don't bother posting here. What's the point of asking if you already have your mind made up?

Alexandra Dennis wrote:
you're 100% wrong..they have a petite model division!!

& I'm sorry, I spelled it wrong..

here's their main website..

www.modelingpa.com

Wil. has a PA division, and it isnt Harmen its Wil. of PA and from my understanding they send all their newbies to my good friends Tony and Clint at www.Tony Gibble Photography {you can see them on my recent tags}  I'd talk to them.  As far as this particular "agency" sounds like a scam to me, and I can do everything they are charging you for for much less than 1800.  If they are claiming to be part of Wil.  Call them directly and cross check your sources.

Biana_Libertine wrote:
Btw, I know this is a bit off topic but has anyone wondered before how many pieces of mail the producers of ATNM recieved along the lines of "OMG WHYZ DO YOU GUYZ ONLY USE TALL GIRLS.  THIS IS NOT FAIR TO WOMEN AND DOESN'T REPRESENT ALL WOMEN AT ALLZ" before they decided to make this short season?

I would have had more respect for them if they did a plus models season. What they're doing right now is letting short girls play dress-up in a pressure cooker environment, and recording the results. It has nothing to do with the actual businesses that involve modeling. Even their "runway walk" coaching sessions, from supposed experts, are giving the wrong information season after season.

StephenEastwood wrote:
have you ever seen the bills of models with top ten NY fashion agencies for the tests they shoot, the model apartment they stay in? the portfolio they get to put prints in? the prints they get to put in that portfolio? the compcards they have printed? the packages they get that comp included in sent to a client? the messenger fees they pay to have their book sent around the city? the airfare and hotel and travel expenses they pay to get shipped overseas? etc.

its way more than what a modeling agency in PA can get from someone, and while it comes out of money the model makes, they are still paying it, tens of thousands of dollars a year at times is not at all uncommon.

Well of course, Stephen, and I NEVER said models don't have to pay legit agencies... see the note at the bottom of my long post just above regarding that.

HOWEVER, for the agencies to be extracting the cash you're talking about the models have to be WORKING.  That's why I said that, for models like the OP who will never MAKE regular bookings, they simply extract the $ up front with classes or expensive portfolios to help support the place.

Nothing I said conflicts with what you said, it's just 2 separate issues. 

nexiste plus wrote:

Alright. So take her advice and don't bother posting here. What's the point of asking if you already have your mind made up?

+1

Have Pentax Will Travel wrote:
I would have had more respect for them if they did a plus models season. What they're doing right now is letting short girls play dress-up in a pressure cooker environment, and recording the results. It has nothing to do with the actual businesses that involve modeling. Even their "runway walk" coaching sessions, from supposed experts, are giving the wrong information season after season.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the real business if they had plus models, either. 

SLE Photography wrote:
And it DOES NOT say that (about a short division).  The "winner" of the "short" season will go to Wilhelmina's commercial division, where she'll undoubtedly get lost quickly in the shuffle.

Even the site the OP linked to DOES NOT say there is a "petite" or "short" division, she was basing that assumption because they list some models under 5'6".

I've shot several of the winners from past seasons for Elite, and they are definitely not in my portfolio. The agencies want the publicity, and just give lip service to the winners after they're signed.

SLE Photography wrote:

It wouldn't have anything to do with the real business if they had plus models, either. 

It would be more real than the short run.

At least Wilhelmina has a plus division to start with.

Have Pentax Will Travel wrote:

I've shot several of the winners from past seasons for Elite, and they are definitely not in my portfolio. The agencies want the publicity, and just give lip service to the winners after they're signed.

Thank you!

IMO, forums like this need a "Godwin's Law" type rule for mentioning ANTM.

SLE Photography wrote:

AMT is NOT the real world.  NONE of the past season "winners" are working models.  This season is 100% a publicity stunt to keep people like the OP watching.

Adrianne is on MM...

SLE Photography wrote:
AMT is NOT the real world.  NONE of the past season "winners" are working models.  This season is 100% a publicity stunt to keep people like the OP watching.

Nikki Magnusson wrote:
Adrianne is on MM...

I should rephrase that.  None of the past winners (to my knowledge) are actively working in fashion or commercial with any major agencies.  I have no doubt some of them are still actively seeking to work as models.  And that's interesting, I didn't know she was here.  I wonder if she's unaware of the forums (like a lot of MMers) or if she deliberately stays out of the ANTM-focused threads?

Alexandra Dennis wrote:
http://www.modelingpa.com/Young_Adults_Women.php

Look through the models ^^

I looked. I was unimpressed. By the photography and by most of the girls. And I didn't see any as short as you.

The whole thing smells. As to Wilhelmina, if they are actually licensing out their name to facilitate scams, I hope that when the scammers get nailed, Willy gets named as well.

Have Pentax Will Travel wrote:

I would have had more respect for them if they did a plus models season. What they're doing right now is letting short girls play dress-up in a pressure cooker environment, and recording the results. It has nothing to do with the actual businesses that involve modeling. Even their "runway walk" coaching sessions, from supposed experts, are giving the wrong information season after season.

I know, at least the plus market is big enough for the winner to actually become a top model.

SLE Photography wrote:

Well of course, Stephen, and I NEVER said models don't have to pay legit agencies... see the note at the bottom of my long post just above regarding that.

HOWEVER, for the agencies to be extracting the cash you're talking about the models have to be WORKING.  That's why I said that, for models like the OP who will never MAKE regular bookings, they simply extract the $ up front with classes or expensive portfolios to help support the place.

Nothing I said conflicts with what you said, it's just 2 separate issues. 

while true, it also confuses the issue.  technically if the model in a Top agency never works they still owe the agency the money, but the agency may never collect, but its not forgiven as a debt, so both "real" and  so called "scam" agencies work to make money from models by charging and over charging.  Some ask upfront, some don't, some collect for years, some don't, some get models real work, some don't, no agency can guarantee jobs to anyone, they only can offer models to clients they have and the market either accepts them or passes.  So while schools are not often useful, I know several models who had gone to one and were found at a convention by IMG/Elite/Ford/One/VisionLA/Next/Trump/ etc.  so yes, in some ways its a rip off, in others its a way to get found when other ways have not worked for them.  Also, those local "scams" may get local work for models which earns them more money if the model fits the criteria the agencies clients are looking for.  Its always hard to say its nothing but a scam, its often a real offer that is profiting from both sellable and non sellable models.  Many real commercial agencies have chosen to take a different path, they realize its not easy or likely to sell some commercial models, and insist that the model supply enough images to put together a portfolio and pay for said portfolio to bring in as well as comp cards and they merely list them as a possible, and collect a percentage if and when they sell it.  That way, they are not making anything until the models makes something, but the model must pay (actual money or barter) for all materials needed to be marketable.

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.NYPhotographics.com

glamour pics wrote:
I looked. I was unimpressed. By the photography and by most of the girls. And I didn't see any as short as you.

The whole thing smells. As to Wilhelmina, if they are actually licensing out their name to facilitate scams, I hope that when the scammers get nailed, Willy gets named as well.

See ei's post about that above.  There've been a number of widely publicized incidents like that.  Wilhelmina isn't liable.

SLE Photography wrote:

It wouldn't have anything to do with the real business if they had plus models, either. 

huh?

Photography by BE wrote:

I am sure you are correct, and I know nothing about the modeling world, but...

Why would they license their name to semi-legit portfolio mills?  Would this not reflect on their own reputation?

Just asking.

Why? Because they make money by licensing their name. Would it harm their reputation? Yup. But evidently they figure the loot is worth more than the reputation.

Interesting, because Willy USED to have a superb reputation as a true high-end, high-fashion agency.

glamour pics wrote:
I looked. I was unimpressed. By the photography and by most of the girls. And I didn't see any as short as you.

The whole thing smells. As to Wilhelmina, if they are actually licensing out their name to facilitate scams, I hope that when the scammers get nailed, Willy gets named as well.

selling a product for more than what its worth is a scam, but it isnt illegal...

glamour pics wrote:
Interesting, because Willy USED to have a superb reputation as a true high-end, high-fashion agency.

And then they had a reality show on MTV...

glamour pics wrote:
Interesting, because Willy USED to have a superb reputation as a true high-end, high-fashion agency.

that had gone way down, but over the past 4 years has made a turn around and gone back up pretty high for the NY agency again.

Their prices and models are back up, and high end.  They do have more range and a larger board then many of the other agencies like One and Trump, so its more diverse, but they have a very high end board again as well.

Stephen Eastwood
http://www.NYPhotographics.com

SLE Photography wrote:
It wouldn't have anything to do with the real business if they had plus models, either. 

Biana_Libertine wrote:
huh?

That wasn't a slap at plus models.  I was just commenting that ANTM will never have anything to do with the real business, no matter what kind of models they use.