Cary K wrote:
To the OP of this thread, I think you stated your case quite well. I agree with you whole heartedly. If a "model" can't spend $40 on themselves to make them look thier very best, I would have to question thier motivation as well.

Thank you, because again, that's all i'm really saying.

Cary K wrote:
This thread has become so hostile I'm almost afraid to dip my toe into this pool, but here goes.

Yes, photographers pay much money for thier equipment and spend much time editing photos. But here's the thing, it's the profession you choose. It's not the responsibility of someone else to pay for your equipment. Not would I expect someone to pay for the thousands of dollars I spend in clothes, shoes, make up, acessories, keeping up with my hair, nails etc. It's ongoing for us models as well. Before anyone jumps my case, here's a for instance.

I work in the cilunary field full time (I guess that makes me a "weekend model" or a GWP, whatever, I'm not concerned with a title) but I digress. I went to school to be a pastry chef. That was MY choice. Along with that came the expense of thousands of dollars in knives, uniforms and other equipment. I don't excpet the hotel that hires me to pay me back for all that. It's my tools of the trade.

Models, we should be willing to invest in ourselves to the point that we're able. I can't affor a MUA every shoot, though for $40-$50 I'd jump at the chance. I learned my own basic photography make up, bought the best products I could find a little at a time and have become pretty accomplished at what I can do with it. (I have done all my own make up on my port)

Bottom line, we need photographers, they need us. If you don't want to do TFP, state it on your port and those not willing to pay (and this goes both ways) can just pass it by. Why we need to have endless threads fighting over who needs more who and who is more professional is a waste of time. To the OP of this thread, I think you stated your case quite well. I agree with you whole heartedly. If a "model" can't spend $40 on themselves to make them look thier very best, I would have to question thier motivation as well.

But that's just my $1.50 (2 cents with inflation) from a humble weekend model.

Cary I could just kiss you!  Brilliant post and response!

Did you guys notice the price of gas going up...one of the major components they said about this was to cover the damage done to oil rigs during Katrina, and "EQUIPMENT" that must be replaced, so we're paying for it now at the pump so that next year they can afford to replace those pieces of equipment later.  BUt we all bitch about gas going up...it's the same as Cary said, it's not our fault about the equipment, but we're supposed to pay more anyway?  That makes no sense.  The funny thing about the gas topic, Chevron still had their highest profiting year that year and are projected to do even higher percentages of profit for 2006 because they are making more money per gallon from us and they have less equipment and labor working the rigs and stations out there.  We're all suckers when we look at making each other pay for our gear. Plus, AHEM, COUGH, Equipment, tax write off...ahem, cough.

Jayne Jones wrote:

B R A V O!!  Very well said IMO.  Then again. . what do I know?

Well said!  I, for one, am both a photographer and model, but am continuously disgusted by all of the negativity in threads such as this.  Here a hint:  instead of bashing others, why not simply focus on your own craft--whatever your skill/experience level--and, if anything, focus on trying bring others up?

Just a thought, my peeps--but, hey, suit yourself...

Adam Chilson wrote:
Just a thought, but models who plan ahead and hire their own MUA for a TFP shoot are far more likely to get what they want out of it. . .

What exactly does an established photographer get out of doing TFP's anyways?

Photos2amaze wrote:
There must be something to it, you think?  The reason there are so many of these posts is photographers in general (not always!) have to put up with alot more BS than models do.  Models might have a little too touchy feely of a photographer or one that gets them their images way late.  But there is a difference in what model/photographer puts up with and is willing to put up with.  Many many photographers have bit their tounges over and over.  Sometimes it boils over.

Absolutely I think there's something to it. I'm sure the stuff you deal with can be infuriating. But no one's forcing you to do what you're doing and I think some *restraint* is in order. Ranting about it several times daily in a public forum is not the best way to deal with it. It's not productive and it's not professional. You indulge in complaining and ranting and you feed off of each other and all it does is escalate--it doesn't seem to me that much tongue-biting is going on.

BCI Photo wrote:
Simple...

When they approach you, at the very least tell them to cover the MUA's fee. They'll leave skid marks in your e-mail. lol

I feel that the net has given the "weekend model" girl a false understanding that they can get something for nothing simply because they're pretty.... If they actually are pretty. Some girls are just neighborhood cute. Meaning that Ralphie boy in his effort to get laid has bestowed upon Mary Anne that she's "hot" or that she should model. Other guys picked up on that and started using it, so BAM!! Up goes the MM/OMP ports.

As soon as she does that, the guys with the wronkled bedsheet/small town style pics with bad lighting and no flair hit her up making her all these TFP offers. She asks one "what is TFP?" and he tells her knowing that he's got a sucker on his hands. So of course the shoot devolves from fashion (her in her regular street clothes) to her in some cheap lingerie on the bed of a cheap motel. And thus she begins her "modeling career" with about 4 or 5 of these shoots before someone drops a bug in her ear that she should charge for these type of shoots and that models never pay photogs for pics.

So finally she sees the work of a photog she likes and asks him if they can shoot. She might make one of two mistakes.

#1: Saying she loves your work, then quoting her rates.
#2: Saying she'd like to set up a TFP with you.

Very rarely do they ask "what are your rates?" because they're still under that "models don't pay" cloud. So to be nice, you say to yourself "she has some potential, all she needs is some real pics. Alright, i'll cut her a deal." That's when you tell her that you'll work with her if she'll just cover the MUA's fee. After all, you as the photog aren't really getting ANYTHING from the shoot, 99% of the benefit is going to the model. So you drop that bomb on her and you know what happens????

Crickets in your e-mail box. lol

Gee whiz-what is it with gender biased posters like this....bash bash bash (and you'd think that male models don't even exist-or if they do, they are not subject to the same issues).

Sir, why not spend your time and energy accentuating the positive that is all around you.

Find something constructive to say about others....build.

Tearing down is the work of the intolerant, myopic, noncreative, and rude.

The world has an over abundance of the foregoing attributes.

Perhaps you could utilize whatever great skill you allude to possessing to produce beauty, rather than self important spite.

A smile is a wonderful thing to leave with someone.

Frowns are a dime a dozen, and unapperciated by all.

(sigh)

BCI Photo wrote:
I'm not bashing MODELS. I'm just waking up the "weekend model" to the fact that  they really need to cut that out, it's not cute and it's not how business is done. And you all wonder why photogs with actual credentials don't take "you" Not you personally seriously?


But it also goes the other way with photogs too.
Bedsheets for backdrops.
The SAME ole backdrop in every shot.
A lot of hotel room shots.
Models look like sisters friends in cheap lingerie with 80's style backdrops.
BAD LIGHTING!!! Where it looks like on camera flash crap.... Indoors.
Lack of credible references.

The tale tell signs are there, but they're ignored.

You are not the arbiter of what is worthy for all, or anyone-save yourself of course.

Why is it one feels the need to establish universal standards for all others-hey, to each their own. And viva la that.

thisismyurl wrote:

What exactly does an established photographer get out of doing TFP's anyways?

Depends on the individual-I get to follow my nose and collaborate without the pressure of commercialism. It's like a professional musician jamming with friends....it's just plain damn FUN.

Brian Matthews wrote:
Yea, any model that is real should not have an issue about compensating the make up artist during a TFP.

Note:
I hate it when I talk to a new model and they say "I don't need makeup".

Everyone needs makeup.

Spoken from the heart (sic) of Madison Ave.

I couldn't disagree with a blanket statement more.

One wonders what da vinci would say to this as he painted the mona lisa......

ANTyson wrote:
BCI,

Just curious, where are your photos published?

Hee hee....you go gurl.

sanderNY wrote:
In response to cinnamon........

What agency hires girls tha tare 5'4?????

I too test with agencies here in NY and the models pay me or
the agency pays for the test and
they than take it out of the models paid jobs....


Photographers don't pay models the clients do when the model gets booked for a job.


The only photographers paying GWPs are GWCs and people just starting out.


I have had tons of GWPs contact me and once i mention that they have to pay for a MUA or stylist or a studio rental i NEVER hear back from them...

As if they were doing me a favor!!!!!

Like i need the pictures and not them

I am sure someone hired Brooke Shields when she was 5'4"...and 5'5"...and 5'6"....and....well, you get the point.

As for established photographers not paying models-that is far from my experience!

I am a long established full time real live professional-and I'll happily pay a model if I wish to utilize her services for a project that I am producing. For me, in said circumstances, it is much cheaper to pay a model than to arrange to work with her "for free".

Andrea Barnett wrote:
basically incident (i ♥ you chad) hit it on the head. this is THE most unprofessional topic. TFP does not exist in real modeling. Fashion models expect no on to shoot them for free. Neither do agencies, once a photographer has proven themselves. Silly Rabbits.

I have to giggle when I come across people that can speak for every model, every agency, every photographer, every everything....as if they've worked with them all at such tender ages.

"Silly rabbit" and "real modeling" indeed.

TFP may be called different things at different times in different places...but the viable concept is as old as the camera itself...and quite common.

_Cinnamon_ wrote:

You ignore the fact that the photographer also gets to use the image to promote themselves. And for the record, I have been paid directly by the photographer who was in turn paid by the client. I'm not stupid or confused about where the money came from, and you're not all-knowing.

Precisely.

What hubris!

And horrific speeeeeling too. (smile).

MsEmerald wrote:

LoL!! kidding right? if these 'Photographers' are supposed to be so big time, then they should be shooting with fellow 'big time' models right?  If I had a dime for every person that claimed to be Gods gift to Photography...I'd quit my day job.

Im just trying to get an understanding here. Im a GWP but I'd be offended if someone thought their time was worth more than mine.

You are editing the photos for your own use. niether one can survive without the other, so those "hollier than thou" attitudes really trip me out when I read them. That goes with models/GWP/GWC/GWC/GWP/XYZ/123, etc, etc..  as well.

Will you split the profits made from the images if sold?


And 15k isnt that much. I prolly spent that much in shoes and purses last year...I wouldnt ask you to split the cost with me tho

hee hee....love this. right on ms. emerald!

hey, I have over $100k invested in hardware....does that make me over 6 times more worthy than thou mr camera operator? (rolls eyes)

money spent and spoken words doth not value make...but clear respect for others-now there is true capital of merit

MsEmerald wrote:

LoL!! kidding right? if these 'Photographers' are supposed to be so big time, then they should be shooting with fellow 'big time' models right?  If I had a dime for every person that claimed to be Gods gift to Photography...I'd quit my day job.

Im just trying to get an understanding here. Im a GWP but I'd be offended if someone thought their time was worth more than mine.

You are editing the photos for your own use. niether one can survive without the other, so those "hollier than thou" attitudes really trip me out when I read them. That goes with models/GWP/GWC/GWC/GWP/XYZ/123, etc, etc..  as well.

Will you split the profits made from the images if sold?


And 15k isnt that much. I prolly spent that much in shoes and purses last year...I wouldnt ask you to split the cost with me tho

You are right, 15k isnt a drop in the bucket for someone that shoots for a living.  So I guess 15k aint much for shoes and purses for someone that models for a living?  I think the start of this thread was directed at beginning models that have no experience, no shots, but expect the world for free because of a bunch of emails from true "GWC's".

BCI Photo wrote:

Keep looking.


Lookie laides, if you actually read my first post, i'm not bashing anyone. I'm actually in a light-hearted tone. A lot of girls start off that way that I described, but that doesn't mean they have to STAY in that arena.

In all actuality what i'm trying to convey is that a girl who is serious, even semi-serious about being a model will do what she has to do to grow. She will at the very least invest in an MUA for a TFP shoot that will benefit her way more-so than it will the photog.

Whereas a GWP will stay on the same rung of the ladder for months/years and do nothing but naturally fade into oblivion with nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap porn/paysite pics.

Now, which side of the fence do you want to play on?

BTW, we're not being mean, we're just conveying our issue with girls who feel that we have all this "great work" yet want us to foot the whole bill for the shoot. And I totally emphasize with dude. Equipment costs money. If i'm shooting you and I knock over my light and shatter it's insides, i'm out about $500 to a G. But if you break a shoe or dress strap, what are you out of, $10, $50 at the most? (womens shoes are not expensive). So when you come to us with the whole "tfp" tip, we take a look at the girl and ask ourselves if she's worth all that. If she is, we might do it. If she's not, we might be nice enough to do it and say "well, at least cover the MUA's fee."

So what's the problem exactly? $50 too much to elevate yourself from a gwp to a girl with modeling potential? Hey, fine with me, no sweat off my nose. Hell, keep complaining about being too short and not getting your shot and being too heavy and what you will and won't do and yadda yadda yadda while girls who look, listen and learn keep passing you by.

Come to "us"? US? Who are "we", and who elected you to speak for this us?

Hmmmmm..........how do you speeel "arrogant"?

I would never want to be on "the same side of the fence" as you.

I find your post consistently bashing and condescending indeed.

You have an interesting way of expressing "light heartedness" in ASCII characters.

Garry k wrote:
Interesting discussion and I agree with many of BCIs points however

Regarding High  Fashion models - the truth is that most top fashion models in todays world ( Ie Gemma Ward or teh newly emerging Coco Rocha )  are scouted and recruited by agents between the ages of 14-16 . The agent deals with parents -between them they arrange for professsional  photographs are taken , runway shows are arranged and then by the ripe age of 17 or 18 another supermodel is born ( the model in question not really actively involved  or even legally able to consent to having those intial photographs taken as she is way under age )

Wonderful point Garry, and one that most everybody should be keen to appreciate.

Nikki S. wrote:

i'd have to agree with you.  obviously, most of the photographers on this site are here because they shoot models.  let most of them tell it, they are shooting only pro models, yet I dont recognize anyone in their online profiles half the time.  hmm, could be something I may have missed.  there are so many complaints about shooting with girls wannabe models on the internet, that its confusing to me as to why they dont shoot only agency models.  hmm...i mean if finding girls on the internet is really that bad, then why continue to do it?  the complaints are wow, just incredible!  if your time is that precious, along with your equipment (and I thank those that I have worked with, I actually do have an understanding of how the equipment works and the costs cause I ask lots of questions at shoots cause I'm interested in photography) why not just test and shoot for agencies only?

Precisely-match point.

BCI Photo wrote:

And that alone has elevated you.
BTW, when Andrews stuff is all over museum walls, you'll make some monies selling prints. lol

Kid's got talent.

Wowie....Nikki S. hath been "elevated".

You may now kiss the ring!

Sheesh!

How do you speeeel "drivel"?

Hmmmmm..........how do you speeel "arrogant"?

I would never want to be on "the same side of the fence" as you.

I find your post consistently bashing and condescending indeed.

You have an interesting way of expressing "light heartedness" in ASCII characters.

Totally agree with you!

BCI Photo wrote:
Well see Jayne, some of us do this for a living. So we do get a little miffed when someone wants us to do something that we pay bills with for free with no benefit to us.
What i'm saying is, at least offer to cover the MUA's fee. Take my MUA for instance, she's quickly becoming one of Ohios uncovered secrets, and she doesn't charge an arm and a leg.

Now if a girl is willing to spend $40 on a club outfit or something frivolous as that, how hard is it to take those same monies and apply it to something that will boost her as an up and coming model?

Again, this is what seperates the models from the girls who are just out here taking pics for the sake of taking pics, or worse yet the ones who open up profiles and their whole port for MONTHS are nothing more than pics done by their boyfriend. lol
They TALK about scheduling shoots, but the shoots never ever happen. And when they finally DO shoot, it's with the wronkled bedsheet/on camera flash crowd. But I think that has something to do with self esteem and staying in "safe"  territory. Never will be models shooting with never will be photogs. GWC's and GWP's.

Someone should open up a site for.... Oh wait, nevermind.

The only ones that seem to get "miffed" are the ones that seem to be taking themselves way too seriously.

$40. for a "club outfit"?, wow, is this wallmart chic or....?

I don't understand your purpose, or perhaps there just isn't one.....no amount of talking/typing is going to convert those you are "miffed" at from converting to your particular brand of behavior....so why bother?

Or is there professional profit in random forum bitch sessions? (me, i'm just waiting for a $40. "club outfit" to close on ebay...just 2 minutes and 11 more seconds to go....)

studio L wrote:
The only ones that seem to get "miffed" are the ones that seem to be taking themselves way too seriously.

$40. for a "club outfit"?, wow, is this wallmart chic or....?

I don't understand your purpose, or perhaps there just isn't one.....no amount of talking/typing is going to convert those you are "miffed" at from converting to your particular brand of behavior....so why bother?

Or is there professional profit in random forum bitch sessions? (me, i'm just waiting for a $40. "club outfit" to close on ebay...just 2 minutes and 11 more seconds to go....)

hah

Paola Gastmeier wrote:
BCI....

I can understand your point about investing in a MUA, but your point came accross harshly...You don't have to diminish models for any reason. I agree that there are some girls that don't even invest time in looking for TFP/TFCD's to better their portfolio, but hey, that is their own thing, and their own problem. Maybe a model wrote to you asking for a TFP...maybe that is why you are so bitter...To be honest (and I say this with all the respect), if I came accross your port, I would never ask you for a TFP...

There are severeal very good photographers here in MM, like there are several very talented models...My port is not espectacular, but it is not filled with images of me in a cheap hotel room...I have never paid for a photographer...instead, I have gotten paid several times...I have contacted Juan Lopez, from this site, who is a good photographer to do TFP...he never took offense to it...he accepted...how about Tominator...a very talented photographer...his work is great...we are doing a TFP shoot as well...

My point is that you shouldn't take offense to someone asking you for a TFP...if you were a very stablished photographer with an amazing port I would understand(maybe), but again, if you do not want to shoot TFP/TFCD, just say so in your homepage!(you state: "I will NOT ask you to do TFP/TFCD in exchange for you doing lingerie or suggestive nudes", but you never say to not ask for TFP at all!)

Just my two cents.

And your two cents buys respect.

Well, mine anyway. (smile)

BCI Photo wrote:
Keep looking.

I know it may seem like I don't have a life, but sometimes I do. Searching an internet site to find out where you have been published is unnecessary. It seems to me like you're giving me the run around. Which leads me to assume your work hasn't been published anywhere relevant. No biggie, mine obviously hasn't either. I'm just a GWP.

But my question to you: How come you get to decide who is a GWP and who is a true model? I'm not trying to be harsh or bitchy but I've looked at your portfolio and to me, there isn't much difference between "girl on wrinkled bedsheets" and "girl on white leather couch". Maybe these girls don't want to pay that $40 kit fee because they don't feel your photos will be worth it.

What gives you and a few other photographers the right to have such a condescending attitude towards other people? I find it strange because it doesn't seem like Vogue is knocking down your door for your time. And even if they were, it wouldn't kill you to be polite and professional instead of flying off the handle every 4 posts about how models or GWP's are stupid meaningless attention whores.

Personally, I would be more than happy to pay for an MUA's time. I would also pay for a photographers time assuming he had some extraordinary work. But why would a model on MM pay for a photoshoot with a mediocre photographer when they can get a free shoot with a mediocre photographer? Or even a free shoot with a really great photographer (as I have managed to work out, go figure)?

And for the record, I have shoes that would be on par with some of your equipment for dollar amount paid at purchase. Ten dollars for a woman's dress shoe?! Take a look at a fashion magazine and maybe you'll develop a better idea for the price of designer clothing.

Maybe because I'm new to the site I'm not as bitter as some of the folks around here. I'm not always the most politically correct or proper person, but think about your audience here. You burn a bridge every time you post something so negative. And I don't think there are enough bridges in Ohio for you to be so careless about it.

BCI Photo wrote:
How To Seperate A Model From A GWP

If you ask someone working agency level they will mostly respond the same way, tear sheets.

If you ask at the 'net level you'll get multiple pages in the forums.

studio L wrote:

And your two cents buys respect.

Well, mine anyway. (smile)

Thanks alot 

ANTyson wrote:

I know it may seem like I don't have a life, but sometimes I do. Searching an internet site to find out where you have been published is unnecessary. It seems to me like you're giving me the run around. Which leads me to assume your work hasn't been published anywhere relevant. No biggie, mine obviously hasn't either. I'm just a GWP.

But my question to you: How come you get to decide who is a GWP and who is a true model? I'm not trying to be harsh or bitchy but I've looked at your portfolio and to me, there isn't much difference between "girl on wrinkled bedsheets" and "girl on white leather couch". Maybe these girls don't want to pay that $40 kit fee because they don't feel your photos will be worth it.

What gives you and a few other photographers the right to have such a condescending attitude towards other people? I find it strange because it doesn't seem like Vogue is knocking down your door for your time. And even if they were, it wouldn't kill you to be polite and professional instead of flying off the handle every 4 posts about how models or GWP's are stupid meaningless attention whores.

Personally, I would be more than happy to pay for an MUA's time. I would also pay for a photographers time assuming he had some extraordinary work. But why would a model on MM pay for a photoshoot with a mediocre photographer when they can get a free shoot with a mediocre photographer? Or even a free shoot with a really great photographer (as I have managed to work out, go figure)?

And for the record, I have shoes that would be on par with some of your equipment for dollar amount paid at purchase. Ten dollars for a woman's dress shoe?! Take a look at a fashion magazine and maybe you'll develop a better idea for the price of designer clothing.

Maybe because I'm new to the site I'm not as bitter as some of the folks around here. I'm not always the most politically correct or proper person, but think about your audience here. You burn a bridge every time you post something so negative. And I don't think there are enough bridges in Ohio for you to be so careless about it.

Ashley,

Good for you...like I said in my post, this guy's work is very mediocre...I think you are beautiful, and I think you have a great chance to shoot with many great photographers..

Keep on walking sweety!!!

TheresaCosmeticsCouture wrote:
I really like your work for starters...yes I am a beginning "weekend" model if you'd like to call me that (as in I think I have a good look, but I don't think I'm what everyone is looking for/ thin enough or tall enough to really make it)...I am also a makeup artist, and certainly appreciate you making sure that your makeup artist gets paid. I didn't take your post really as bashing people, just simply saying that beginning models might want to invest in talented team of a makeup artist/ photog and not expect that everything be handed to them.

The problem here is not to not pay the MUA, it is that only the model shouldn't have to pay it...the photographer uses the pictures too for his portfolio, so the cost should be devided.
Many MUA's shoot TFP too, unles they are well know already and have alot to show about their work.

How To Seperate A Model From A GWP

How did they get stuck together in the first place?

Paola Gastmeier wrote:

Ashley,

Good for you...like I said in my post, this guy's work is very mediocre...I think you are beautiful, and I think you have a great chance to shoot with many great photographers..

Keep on walking sweety!!!

Agreed.  Do not let those certain condescending, obviously insecure photographers (with way too much time on their hands) get to you.  Plus, remember that the few bad apples do not represent all of us...

Keep following your passion!

Joey

Joeys Angels wrote:

Agreed.  Do not let those certain condescending, obviously insecure photographers (with way too much time on their hands) get to you.  Plus, remember that the few bad apples do not represent all of us...

Keep following your passion!

Joey

Joey,

Thank God it is not all of you who are like that...there are actually gerat people(photographers) here in MM, and in many places more!