_Cinnamon_ wrote:

I do work for an agency. And they pay me, I don't pay the photographers, so I'm not sure what your point is.

my point is models always wanting TFP.  its not even CALLED TFP in the real world, LOL... agencies don't even know what that means.  models seem to exoect the photog to buty all the equipment, get a stylist, get a mua, all for FREE... so they can have images to promote themselves for no expense. Thats so funny.

I am a professional and I make my living shooting.  Generally agencies send models to me and the models pay me, not the agencies.  And models who thing photographers pay them for commercial jobs need to learn tne biz.

Incident Image wrote:
I see a lot of unqualified replies to what i posted, but none that address the issue.  Do u expect a plumber to work for free?  or anyone you HIRE for that matter?  I don't think so.  If you were actual AGENCY models, you wouuld know how the REAL system works.

So does that mean I can't borrow $200??

Incident Image wrote:

my point is models always wanting TFP.  its not even CALLED TFP in the real world, LOL... agencies don't even know what that means.  models seem to exoect the photog to buty all the equipment, get a stylist, get a mua, all for FREE... so they can have images to promote themselves for no expense. Thats so funny.

I am a professional and I make my living shooting.  Generally agencies send models to me and the models pay me, not the agencies.  And models who thing photographers pay them for commercial jobs need to learn tne biz.

You ignore the fact that the photographer also gets to use the image to promote themselves. And for the record, I have been paid directly by the photographer who was in turn paid by the client. I'm not stupid or confused about where the money came from, and you're not all-knowing.

BCI Photo wrote:

And THAT is what seperates a model from a GWP in my book.

I will cut people slack and say "just cover the mua." But if you can't invest $40, $50  into yourself, what makes you think I should invest into you my time and skill?

I'm new to this arena... What is a GWP?

BCI Photo wrote:
And THAT is what seperates a model from a GWP in my book.

I will cut people slack and say "just cover the mua." But if you can't invest $40, $50  into yourself, what makes you think I should invest into you my time and skill?

myviewfinder wrote:
I'm new to this arena... What is a GWP?

Gal With Pictures.  A phrase I like to think was coined by the lovely Cristal Steverson

Anthony Thomas wrote:
Didn't somebody say T.F.P is Time For Problems? lol  A real model should definitely invest in a professional make over.  Just eyeliner and lip gloss doesn't cut it.  I dont' shoot unless i have a make up artist.  Models remember this quote......... "If you don't invest in yourself....how do you expect somebody else to?"

Whoa, lookey here! Ant's in the hiz-ouse!

tee hee, sorry, just got a little happy...

Anthony Thomas wrote:
Didn't somebody say T.F.P is Time For Problems? lol  A real model should definitely invest in a professional make over.  Just eyeliner and lip gloss doesn't cut it.  I dont' shoot unless i have a make up artist.  Models remember this quote......... "If you don't invest in yourself....how do you expect somebody else to?"

Just a thought, but models who plan ahead and hire their own MUA for a TFP shoot are far more likely to get what they want out of it. . .

Adam Chilson wrote:

Just a thought, but models who plan ahead and hire their own MUA for a TFP shoot are far more likely to get what they want out of it. . .

Sounds good to me. That way when they cancel/no show, the MUA is only pissed with them. lol

BCI Photo wrote:

Sounds good to me. That way when they cancel/no show, the MUA is only pissed with them. lol

I'll drink to that! Wow, wouldn't that be a welcome trend, eh?

Angel Tara wrote:

Whoa, lookey here! Ant's in the hiz-ouse!

tee hee, sorry, just got a little happy...

Hey Miss Almost-Prettier-Then-Me   !!!

_Cinnamon_ wrote:

Because of course the photographer is the only one with skill, and the model has nothing to contribute but money. All of that equipment and knowhow does you know no good without a good model.

I have to agree with Cinnamon how can you just rant and rave about your equipment when you have no idea what the model paid to get there, what about her wardrobe? Did you have a client supplying it or did she? If you’re going to complain about the cost of your time and equipment is photography really for you?  In regards to an MUA your using some of these pictures in your portfolio too. You should be just as responsible as a team to benefit from and MUA /Hair Stylist? One question though since you’re complaining about so-called fake models, what’s in your port, I don’t seem to recall mannequins? How do you have the right to make that call? Also.. Weekend model, well that’s just DOWN RIGHT RUDE if you ask me. So because I hold the title MODEL, I have to be at your every beck and call? I pay my bills so I can survive, Speaking for all the models out there who bust there butts daily to make a living you shouldn’t start a fire in your own backyard, meaning you’re a photographer therefore you need models to make you who you are! Your not going to get very many with your views. This is suppose to be team work your not suppose to attack the model you might one day come in contact with, judging by your attitude with this post I’m surprised you even have a portfolio to post on MM. Best of luck in the future, I’m still working on the weekends though

_Cinnamon_ wrote:
So much hostility. Seems like every other thread I see is bashing models in some way. Is it just me, or do a lot of photographers have a serious chip on their shoulders? I know, I know--models are dumb and flaky and they ruin your lives, so it's all completely justified and not gratuitous at all.

There must be something to it, you think?  The reason there are so many of these posts is photographers in general (not always!) have to put up with alot more BS than models do.  Models might have a little too touchy feely of a photographer or one that gets them their images way late.  But there is a difference in what model/photographer puts up with and is willing to put up with.  Many many photographers have bit their tounges over and over.  Sometimes it boils over.

ANTyson wrote:
BCI,

Just curious, where are your photos published?

Check Cristals "success" thread.

BCI Photo wrote:
Check Cristals "success" thread.

I don't know. I guess I'm stupid, but I tried searching for the thread but came up with nothing. Would you mind posting your credits here or are there too many to list? In that case, maybe a link?

Jayne Jones wrote:
To basically demand that she hire the MUA you recommend is inferring that she's not able to do her own makeup.  I'm sure you'll want her to pay for prints once you give her the CD and some photographers even charge to retouch photos for models to post in their online ports.  So again. . .given that. . .added to the "you internet models don't have a future" spewings by photographers. . .where again is the motivation?

I understand your point but as a makeup artist I have to say (respectfully) When someone demands that you hire and MUA is a not at all intended to undermine your makeup skills...it is simply because there is so much detail that goes into makeup for photography. I was a makeup artist for 5 years under an extremely prestigious cosmetics company. When I decided to end my career with them I really felt that I was ready to venture into the fashion industry, however, once I got here, I really felt out of my league. Doing your makeup yourself is great when you are going out, but trust me, even a skilled artist cannot always pull it off well. With this being said, I have been told numerous times that I am not going to make it in the industry, and you know what I do? I smile, a say "Thanks for the input, hopefully one day I will be able to change your mind" Everyone starts off somewhere and there are tons of models that actually started off being called ugly!!! Now I am no expert, in fact I really am not ever intending on making this my living (I am in school for something totally different) but I do love the industry and most of the beautiful and talented people in it!!

sanderNY wrote:
In response to cinnamon........

What agency hires girls tha tare 5'4?????

I too test with agencies here in NY and the models pay me or
the agency pays for the test and
they than take it out of the models paid jobs....

I do commercial modeling--height isn't as much as of an issue. They're looking for someone who fits the role, not someone who makes makes the clothes look good.

Geez people, I wasn't saying that photographers paid me for testing and portfolio development--I was talking about general jobs. And I'm telling you that I sometimes receive checks directly from photographers. And these were perfectly legitimate jobs for very well-known companies, not some back alley sketchiness. So my agency does things a little differently, big deal.

MsEmerald wrote:
Lots of model bashing... Im pretty sure that 99.9% of them started out as GWP.


The whole TFP or whatever you wanna call it, sounds like a 2way street to me. Why wouldnt y'all Split the cost of the MUA to get both sides of their high horse??

$15k+ equipment and alot of editing time.

Photos2amaze wrote:
$15k+ equipment and alot of editing time.

LoL!! kidding right? if these 'Photographers' are supposed to be so big time, then they should be shooting with fellow 'big time' models right?  If I had a dime for every person that claimed to be Gods gift to Photography...I'd quit my day job.

Im just trying to get an understanding here. Im a GWP but I'd be offended if someone thought their time was worth more than mine.

You are editing the photos for your own use. niether one can survive without the other, so those "hollier than thou" attitudes really trip me out when I read them. That goes with models/GWP/GWC/GWC/GWP/XYZ/123, etc, etc..  as well.

Will you split the profits made from the images if sold?


And 15k isnt that much. I prolly spent that much in shoes and purses last year...I wouldnt ask you to split the cost with me tho

MsEmerald wrote:

LoL!! kidding right? if these 'Photographers' are supposed to be so big time, then they should be shooting with fellow 'big time' models right?  If I had a dime for every person that claimed to be Gods gift to Photography...I'd quit my day job.

Im just trying to get an understanding here. Im a GWP but I'd be offended if someone thought their time was worth more than mine.

You are editing the photos for your own use. niether one can survive without the other, so those "hollier than thou" attitudes really trip me out when I read them. That goes with models/GWP/GWC/GWC/GWP/XYZ/123, etc, etc..

Will you split the profits made from the images if sold?


And 15k isnt that much. I prolly spent that much in shoes and purses last year...I wouldnt ask you to split the cost with me tho

i'd have to agree with you.  obviously, most of the photographers on this site are here because they shoot models.  let most of them tell it, they are shooting only pro models, yet I dont recognize anyone in their online profiles half the time.  hmm, could be something I may have missed.  there are so many complaints about shooting with girls wannabe models on the internet, that its confusing to me as to why they dont shoot only agency models.  hmm...i mean if finding girls on the internet is really that bad, then why continue to do it?  the complaints are wow, just incredible!  if your time is that precious, along with your equipment (and I thank those that I have worked with, I actually do have an understanding of how the equipment works and the costs cause I ask lots of questions at shoots cause I'm interested in photography) why not just test and shoot for agencies only?

ANTyson wrote:

I don't know. I guess I'm stupid, but I tried searching for the thread but came up with nothing. Would you mind posting your credits here or are there too many to list? In that case, maybe a link?

Keep looking.


Lookie laides, if you actually read my first post, i'm not bashing anyone. I'm actually in a light-hearted tone. A lot of girls start off that way that I described, but that doesn't mean they have to STAY in that arena.

In all actuality what i'm trying to convey is that a girl who is serious, even semi-serious about being a model will do what she has to do to grow. She will at the very least invest in an MUA for a TFP shoot that will benefit her way more-so than it will the photog.

Whereas a GWP will stay on the same rung of the ladder for months/years and do nothing but naturally fade into oblivion with nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap porn/paysite pics.

Now, which side of the fence do you want to play on?

BTW, we're not being mean, we're just conveying our issue with girls who feel that we have all this "great work" yet want us to foot the whole bill for the shoot. And I totally emphasize with dude. Equipment costs money. If i'm shooting you and I knock over my light and shatter it's insides, i'm out about $500 to a G. But if you break a shoe or dress strap, what are you out of, $10, $50 at the most? (womens shoes are not expensive). So when you come to us with the whole "tfp" tip, we take a look at the girl and ask ourselves if she's worth all that. If she is, we might do it. If she's not, we might be nice enough to do it and say "well, at least cover the MUA's fee."

So what's the problem exactly? $50 too much to elevate yourself from a gwp to a girl with modeling potential? Hey, fine with me, no sweat off my nose. Hell, keep complaining about being too short and not getting your shot and being too heavy and what you will and won't do and yadda yadda yadda while girls who look, listen and learn keep passing you by.

BCI Photo wrote:

Keep looking.


Lookie laides, if you actually read my first post, i'm not bashing anyone. I'm actually in a light-hearted tone. A lot of girls start off that way that I described, but that doesn't mean they have to STAY in that arena.

In all actuality what i'm trying to convey is that a girl who is serious, even semi-serious about being a model will do what she has to do to grow. She will at the very least invest in an MUA for a TFP shoot that will benefit her way more-so than it will the photog.

Whereas a GWP will stay on the same rung of the ladder for months/years and do nothing but naturally fade into oblivion with nothing to show for it but a bunch of cheap porn/paysite pics.

Now, which side of the fence do you want to play on?

BTW, we're not being mean, we're just conveying our issue with girls who feel that we have all this "great work" yet want us to foot the whole bill for the shoot. And I totally emphasize with dude. Equipment costs money. If i'm shooting you and I knock over my light and shatter it's insides, i'm out about $500 to a G. But if you break a shoe or dress strap, what are you out of, $10, $50 at the most? (womens shoes are not expensive). So when you come to us with the whole "tfp" tip, we take a look at the girl and ask ourselves if she's worth all that. If she is, we might do it. If she's not, we might be nice enough to do it and say "well, at least cover the MUA's fee."

So what's the problem exactly? $50 too much to elevate yourself from a gwp to a girl with modeling potential? Hey, fine with me, no sweat off my nose. Hell, keep complaining about being too short and not getting your shot and being too heavy and what you will and won't do and yadda yadda yadda while girls who look, listen and learn keep passing you by.

i do agree with you.  if you are serious about modeling, you do have to make investments.  thus being the reason i drive out of state and i dare not ask the photographer to pay for my gas.  This is for me!  I pay for makeup artists, I research and try to book them myself if the photographer doesnt have one that he/she usually uses.  I have paid, and continue on paying great photographers, so that I get the things that I need for my book.  However, I accept TFP whatever shoots, cause I cant pay every photographer, and practice never hurt anyone.

Nikki S. wrote:

i do agree with you.  if you are serious about modeling, you do have to make investments.  thus being the reason i drive out of state and i dare not ask the photographer to pay for my gas.  This is for me!  I pay for makeup artists, I research and try to book them myself if the photographer doesnt have one that he/she usually uses.  I have paid, and continue on paying great photographers, so that I get the things that I need for my book.  However, I accept TFP whatever shoots, cause I cant pay every photographer, and practice never hurt anyone.

And that alone has elevated you.
BTW, when Andrews stuff is all over museum walls, you'll make some monies selling prints. lol

Kid's got talent.

BCI Photo wrote:

And that alone has elevated you.
BTW, when Andrews stuff is all over museum walls, you'll make some monies selling prints. lol

Kid's got talent.

I love Drew! I told him he was great!  I know he's cut out the majority of free testing, cause he's gotten so much better since I shot with him, but he's one that I'd be willing to definitely pay!  If only I could get him to stop moving around

David Maki wrote:
I take a title "amateur"  photographer.

And I'm OK with it.

Oh quit fishing for compliments. lol

Hoohaw wrote:
Damn this whole "diverse background" thing, it really brings more friction than anything.

There are businessfolk.  People who look for business.  Money is involved.
There are amateurs.  People who look for fun.  Money is sometimes involved.
There are abusers.  People who look for attention.  Money is avoided.

I'm sure we could break it down a lot more.  The businessfolk get pissed at the amateurs and abusers for seeking free shoots and particularly the amateurs for trying to undercut prices or whatever.  The amateurs get frustrated that the businessfolk are condescending and the abusers give them a bad name, and the abusers don't really care as long as they get a few comments on whatever webcam pics (or whatever nude photos in the case of the classic "GWC") they can get into their gallery.

the class structure here grinds constantly.  I'd happily take a title under my name like "amateur" if it would distinguish me from "professional", though it would tend to lump me in the "abusers" category too I'm sure.  Of course that would be a little extra work to give us the choice to define what kind of attention/"work" we're looking for here without just typing it in our profile info.

I agree completely that a lot of this comes down to class issues. Seems that many people have a tough time dealing regularly with people who have very different goals and expectations.

Melany Wells wrote:

I have to agree with Cinnamon how can you just rant and rave about your equipment when you have no idea what the model paid to get there, what about her wardrobe? Did you have a client supplying it or did she? If you’re going to complain about the cost of your time and equipment is photography really for you?  In regards to an MUA your using some of these pictures in your portfolio too. You should be just as responsible as a team to benefit from and MUA /Hair Stylist? One question though since you’re complaining about so-called fake models, what’s in your port, I don’t seem to recall mannequins? How do you have the right to make that call? Also.. Weekend model, well that’s just DOWN RIGHT RUDE if you ask me. So because I hold the title MODEL, I have to be at your every beck and call? I pay my bills so I can survive, Speaking for all the models out there who bust there butts daily to make a living you shouldn’t start a fire in your own backyard, meaning you’re a photographer therefore you need models to make you who you are! Your not going to get very many with your views. This is suppose to be team work your not suppose to attack the model you might one day come in contact with, judging by your attitude with this post I’m surprised you even have a portfolio to post on MM. Best of luck in the future, I’m still working on the weekends though

My wife is a weekend model, just starting out...she has wanted to do this for a while but she has a serious marketing director position for a major company during the week.  She likes the people she meets doing this and it opens up doors for my graphic design work and her own.  But let's not even mention how much money she's spent int he last 3 years on gym fees to get her figure, on clothes.  I know what Models spend, I know what they go through...it's a 3 times a week at the gym, watch what you eat, lifestyle.  Photographers live in equipment, Models live in their culture of lifestyle choices. 

Each side I would say, if doing it seriously, has about the same amount invested.  What if a model has a website, how much does that cost per year...yada yada yada...this is becoming a wash when we use this as an argument point.  We each need each other, so why are we attacking each other...we should be attacking the agencies to get more money, the manufacturers to lessen costs.  Finding clients...that's what we all need!