_Cinnamon_ wrote:
So much hostility. Seems like every other thread I see is bashing models in some way. Is it just me, or do a lot photographers have a serious chip on their shoulders? I know, I know--models are dumb and flaky and their ruin your lives, so it's all completely justified and not gratuitous at all.

Gotta agree with you there.

Bitterness is super ugly. I think the GWCs outnumber the GWPs on MM- stop griping- it's not pretty.

Miyami wrote:
I have no problem with helping the MUA

And THAT is what seperates a model from a GWP in my book.

I will cut people slack and say "just cover the mua." But if you can't invest $40, $50  into yourself, what makes you think I should invest into you my time and skill?

BCI Photo wrote:
I'm not bashing MODELS. I'm just waking up the "weekend model" to the fact that  they really need to cut that out, it's not cute and it's not how business is done. And you all wonder why photogs with actual credentials don't take "you" Not you personally seriously?

I hear what you're saying. I'm all for seeing more professional conduct from everyone on this site. I guess I just feel that everyone one has to start somewhere, you know? And I wish people were a little more forgiving, because it's not easy to put yourself out there.

Brian Matthews wrote:
Note:
I hate it when I talk to a new model and they say "I don't need makeup".

Everyone needs makeup.

Don't let Andrew read this. lol
You know those au naturale art photographers and their bare faces. Hehehehe....

BCI Photo wrote:
So finally she sees the work of a photog she likes and asks him if they can shoot. She might make one of two mistakes.

#1: Saying she loves your work, then quoting her rates.
#2: Saying she'd like to set up a TFP with you.

Very rarely do they ask "what are your rates?" because they're still under that "models don't pay" cloud.
Crickets in your e-mail box. lol

Ok.  I haven't read all the posts yet.  But. . .
Personally, I've yet to be paid to model anything.  Not that I'm upset about that.  Not that I'm "really trying" to be paid yet either.  But fact remains that I don't feel I am a pro until I've been paid for what I do for quite some time.  That's just me.

Having said that. . .anyone that is starting out in this will of course need the aid of 1-a good MUA and 2-a damn good photographer.  Now. . .considering money doesn't grow on trees, and everyone must start somewhere. . .what in hell is wrong with asking if a photographer shoots TFP/CD???  I don't think it's rude.  I don't think it's presumptuous.  Quite the contrary, I think it establishes two things:
1-the model likes the quality of the photographer's work, and
2-the model knows she/he probably cannot afford their rates. . .considering they can't afford anyone's rates for that matter.
I take this statement very personally because I do ask photographers if they will consider doing TFP/CD shoots because my cashflow is not in surplus right now.  Mind you, I will read a photographer's profile and take note of the rates posted (if any) and if they say that they are open to it.  I will also ask photographers that don't have it listed that they shoot TFP/CD because you never know.  It isn't that I don't think I should pay. . .it's that I am unable to pay.  If I sat on my hands and waited until I could pay every photographer I wanted to work with. . .I'd never shoot anything.  But that's just how I feel about it.

I also don't mind paying photographers because I know that ultimately. . .I can't shoot myself well enough to build a strong port.  I'm paying for expertise, but I won't pay for divatudes.  Models don't like them any more than photographers do.

Just my jingle (change/two cents).

Experimental Photoworks wrote:
I swear Jayne if you don't post new images soon I'm going to drive out and shoot you myself. And then if you don't post new images .......I'll let the mods know you haven't updated your portfolio in a jillian years.....Feel better soon hun. *hugs*

Iona Lynn

*lol*  I just got my 1st nekkids back from Scott today so. . .hopefully I'll have some new images to post very very soon. 

Thanks. . .*hug* swelling is finally going down in the leg.  Yaaaayyy!!  Still can't walk on it yet, without looking very elderly but. . .soon.  Two weeks of bedrest left!!  Yippeee!

BCI Photo wrote:
Well see Jayne, some of us do this for a living. So we do get a little miffed when someone wants us to do something that we pay bills with for free with no benefit to us.
What i'm saying is, at least offer to cover the MUA's fee. Take my MUA for instance, she's quickly becoming one of Ohios uncovered secrets, and she doesn't charge an arm and a leg.

Now if a girl is willing to spend $40 on a club outfit or something frivolous as that, how hard is it to take those same monies and apply it to something that will boost her as an up and coming model?

Again, this is what seperates the models from the girls who are just out here taking pics for the sake of taking pics, or worse yet the ones who open up profiles and their whole port for MONTHS are nothing more than pics done by their boyfriend. lol
They TALK about scheduling shoots, but the shoots never ever happen. And when they finally DO shoot, it's with the wronkled bedsheet/on camera flash crowd. But I think that has something to do with self esteem and staying in "safe"  territory. Never will be models shooting with never will be photogs. GWC's and GWP's.

Someone should open up a site for.... Oh wait, nevermind.

Ok.  I'll take that and I'll raise you this:
Half the models here are often told they will never be successful.  They don't meet modeling standards.  Agencies won't touch them because they don't meet said standards.  So given that. . .where exactly is the motivation to spend thousands of dollars or even hundreds investing in a go nowhere career??  Most people aren't willing to do that.  Besides, there are tons of photographers on MM, so what one isn't willing to do. . .another is.  The same can be said about models. . .and MUA"s. . .and stylists.

To basically demand that she hire the MUA you recommend is inferring that she's not able to do her own makeup.  I'm sure you'll want her to pay for prints once you give her the CD and some photographers even charge to retouch photos for models to post in their online ports.  So again. . .given that. . .added to the "you internet models don't have a future" spewings by photographers. . .where again is the motivation?

Modeling is something I desire to do once I am financially able to put all of my time and concentration into it.  Right now I have two jobs to help me pay debts and make ends meet.  I know I'm a GWP. . .and I'm okay with that.  But unlike you, I feel it's due to my lack of experience, my lack of pictures and my lack of time invested and time constraints.  NOT because I shoot when and where I can, and ask photographers for reduced rates, and happen to know a MUA for MAC that goes to my church so she hooks me up from time to time. . .other times I do my own makeup.  I know my limitations, so I'm not forsaking my bills to pay for headshots that won't ever get seen and even if they do get seen. . .won't get me gigs.  That would be stupid IMO.  But overall, pros invest in their future, so I do agree with you there.  I'm just not sure I agree with your method of delivery on that point.  I think your perspective is very one sided.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Ok.  I'll take that and I'll raise you this:
Half the models here are often told they will never be successful.  They don't meet modeling standards.  Agencies won't touch them because they don't meet said standards.  So given that. . .where exactly is the motivation to spend thousands of dollars or even hundreds investing in a go nowhere career??

If your parents always told you that you weren't shit, would you believe them? I hope not! I know quite a few freelance models who started off struggling, now they're doing pretty good.

Most people aren't willing to do that.  Besides, there are tons of photographers on MM, so what one isn't willing to do. . .another is.  The same can be said about models. . .and MUA"s. . .and stylists.

I know, I spoke on them already.

To basically demand that she hire the MUA you recommend is inferring that she's not able to do her own makeup.  I'm sure you'll want her to pay for prints once you give her the CD and some photographers even charge to retouch photos for models to post in their online ports.  So again. . .given that. . .added to the "you internet models don't have a future" spewings by photographers. . .where again is the motivation?

I've had newbie models apply their own make up.... That'll NEVER happen again. not with me, anyway. Plus if i'm doing TFP, it's jst that, TFP. You get all your shots, good (90%) and bad (10%), and I do touch ups for free, which is usually color correction (I lose that from the film to CD transfer). This is the purpose of a quality MUA and a skilled photog. you shouldn't have to spend 30 to 45 minutes in photoshop to produce a quality image.

Modeling is something I desire to do once I am financially able to put all of my time and concentration into it.  Right now I have two jobs to help me pay debts and make ends meet.  I know I'm a GWP. . .and I'm okay with that.  But unlike you, I feel it's due to my lack of experience, my lack of pictures and my lack of time invested and time constraints.  NOT because I shoot when and where I can, and ask photographers for reduced rates, and happen to know a MUA for MAC that goes to my church so she hooks me up from time to time. . .other times I do my own makeup.  I know my limitations, so I'm not forsaking my bills to pay for headshots that won't ever get seen and even if they do get seen. . .won't get me gigs.  That would be stupid IMO.  But overall, pros invest in their future, so I do agree with you there.  I'm just not sure I agree with your method of delivery on that point.

Dude (figure of speech) you know I LOVE how you come across in photos, and you're doing what you can to be presentable. You know what that means????

Means that this post wasn't at all about YOU. So don't sweat it. *wink*

commart wrote:
It looks like there are two threads on this theme today.

Outside of MAJOR fashion and commercial media towns like New York City, and even there, there may be more arguments for not marketing to models than for getting their business.

1. Most fashion (print advertising) competitors, men and women, are not qualified by their measurements.  They may or may not be nice people, but for the tape they're not going to be "fit models" or runway talent.  A few might hook into a culture or a designer or two who could care less, but that could happen any which way, including street spotting.  Basically, if you're shooting largely unqualified fashion models for pay, you're in the same scam zone as so many modeling managers and schools.  Good luck to you.

2. Fashion models who may be qualified by face, measurements, and form may still turn out awful models, lol.  In that case, assuming you're doing the gray seamless studio thing or some built environment plus accessing MUA and stylist talent, you get a person putting up between $400 and $1,200, maybe more, to learn that you're a photographer, not a magician, and they're tall, well-built people, but they're not going to sell a suit or pump to save their lives.  Guess who's going to get half the blame for that?  Saying goodbye to someone with buyer's remorse is like planting a minefield in your own backyard.

3. For those interested in commercial, how many have presence and can act (not that they always have to)?  At least with that gig, a head shot and two or three lifestyle and other setups may comprise the work and the model can go to the printer, submit to commercial agencies, self-promote to art directors and such, and test the market with not quite so much grief as the fashionista.  Here's the question: how much money, on average, will a model with commercial aspirations pay for a head shot and comp card pictures, assuming you'll do all three or four in one session?  And how much time do you think it's going to take to edit and serve up that work?  There's another program you can trim to sleaze service, but, I guess, it's ethically healthier than what gets pushed to "fashion models".

4. Art, glamour, erotica: who is going to fool who on this?  If you're the Internet flesh peddler, the workin' girl gets paid--and then you get paid from customer proceeds.  The rest, and most of what passes for "work" in the Internet model-photographer community, amounts to art adventure, art stock (piece work), or art, if it's both good and themed, for eventual but uncertain publication.  Most of the time, the girls shouldn't be paid and neither should the photographers for the session.  Although some eventual payoff may acrue to the photographer, the outlook's generally uncertain at shooting time--if the party's want to haggle over some percentage of nonexistent royalty, fine.

Better customers: private portraiture for business and families; event work (conferences to weddings); commercial services to art directors, corporate or other institutional marketing/PR clients; and adjunct editorial services to broadcast and print media.

Finally, there's much to be said for collaborative, unpaid, even . . . GWC photography: it's work made with freedom and serving creativity, expression, and vision with some pretend but not necessarily pretense--sort of like basement band rehearsals and knocking out screenplays in some odd corner of the earth: some of that stuff escapes and makes money; most of the time, it was just great doing it.

B R A V O!!  Very well said IMO.  Then again. . what do I know?

Daniela V wrote:
Gotta agree with you there.

Bitterness is super ugly. I think the GWCs outnumber the GWPs on MM- stop griping- it's not pretty.

Oh, I dunno, I think it's about even
I know locally there're a lot more GWPs than GWCs

_Cinnamon_ wrote:
So much hostility. Seems like every other thread I see is bashing models in some way. Is it just me, or do a lot of photographers have a serious chip on their shoulders? I know, I know--models are dumb and flaky and they ruin your lives, so it's all completely justified and not gratuitous at all.

Its more fun than bumper cars at the fair.
What is this world cuming to anyway ??


E L

Incident Image wrote:
Like I've said before... when a MODEL brings $10,000+ in specialized equipment, locations and knowledge of how to use it to a shoot, THEN we can shoot for free.  Otherwise, my equipment, time, locaitons, and retouching costs money.  Plaain and simple.

Because of course the photographer is the only one with skill, and the model has nothing to contribute but money. All of that equipment and knowhow does you know no good without a good model.

Incident Image wrote:
Like I've said before... when a MODEL brings $10,000+ in specialized equipment, locations and knowledge of how to use it to a shoot, THEN we can shoot for free.  Otherwise, my equipment, time, locaitons, and retouching costs money.  Plaain and simple.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And photographers say models are divas.  Sheesh!  Sounds like the start of the good ol' "my equipment costs more than yours" debacle to me.  Since you bring an unliquidated $10K to every shoot. . .loan me $200 to pay your fee.

Jayne Jones wrote:
And photographers say models are divas.  Sheesh!  Sounds like the start of the good ol' "my equipment costs more than yours" debacle to me.  Since you bring an unliquidated $10K to every shoot. . .loan me $200 to pay your fee.

LOL, seriously

Incident Image wrote:
I see a lot of unqualified replies to what i posted, but none that address the issue.  Do u expect a plumber to work for free?  or anyone you HIRE for that matter?  I don't think so.  If you were actual AGENCY models, you wouuld know how the REAL system works.

I do work for an agency. And they pay me, I don't pay the photographers, so I'm not sure what your point is.