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How To Seperate A Model From A GWP
Simple... When they approach you, at the very least tell them to cover the MUA's fee. They'll leave skid marks in your e-mail. lol I feel that the net has given the "weekend model" girl a false understanding that they can get something for nothing simply because they're pretty.... If they actually are pretty. Some girls are just neighborhood cute. Meaning that Ralphie boy in his effort to get laid has bestowed upon Mary Anne that she's "hot" or that she should model. Other guys picked up on that and started using it, so BAM!! Up goes the MM/OMP ports. As soon as she does that, the guys with the wronkled bedsheet/small town style pics with bad lighting and no flair hit her up making her all these TFP offers. She asks one "what is TFP?" and he tells her knowing that he's got a sucker on his hands. So of course the shoot devolves from fashion (her in her regular street clothes) to her in some cheap lingerie on the bed of a cheap motel. And thus she begins her "modeling career" with about 4 or 5 of these shoots before someone drops a bug in her ear that she should charge for these type of shoots and that models never pay photogs for pics. So finally she sees the work of a photog she likes and asks him if they can shoot. She might make one of two mistakes. #1: Saying she loves your work, then quoting her rates. #2: Saying she'd like to set up a TFP with you. Very rarely do they ask "what are your rates?" because they're still under that "models don't pay" cloud. So to be nice, you say to yourself "she has some potential, all she needs is some real pics. Alright, i'll cut her a deal." That's when you tell her that you'll work with her if she'll just cover the MUA's fee. After all, you as the photog aren't really getting ANYTHING from the shoot, 99% of the benefit is going to the model. So you drop that bomb on her and you know what happens???? Crickets in your e-mail box. lol May 16 06 03:04 pm Link sad but true May 16 06 03:10 pm Link So much hostility. Seems like every other thread I see is bashing models in some way. Is it just me, or do a lot of photographers have a serious chip on their shoulders? I know, I know--models are dumb and flaky and they ruin your lives, so it's all completely justified and not gratuitous at all. May 16 06 03:17 pm Link _Cinnamon_ wrote: Gotta agree with you there. May 16 06 03:19 pm Link I have to agree. This post isn't about models. It is about GIRLS WITH PICTURES... and shit they piss me off too! May 16 06 03:21 pm Link Couldn't have said it better myself. Even though this subject has been posted numerous times, I think that your rendition is the best described yet. May 16 06 03:28 pm Link I'm not bashing MODELS. I'm just waking up the "weekend model" to the fact that they really need to cut that out, it's not cute and it's not how business is done. And you all wonder why photogs with actual credentials don't take "you" Not you personally seriously? But it also goes the other way with photogs too. Bedsheets for backdrops. The SAME ole backdrop in every shot. A lot of hotel room shots. Models look like sisters friends in cheap lingerie with 80's style backdrops. BAD LIGHTING!!! Where it looks like on camera flash crap.... Indoors. Lack of credible references. The tale tell signs are there, but they're ignored. May 16 06 03:29 pm Link I have no problem with helping the MUA May 16 06 03:31 pm Link The problem is that the weekend models you speak of don't now and won't ever care. For every photographer they piss off there are 20 more in the wings that will shoot with them if and when they decide the need new picturs for myspace. Wonkled bedsheets and all all kinds of tallent is represented here even the most untallented. It is sad really but some do learn and become very respectable. May 16 06 03:35 pm Link Yea, any model that is real should not have an issue about compensating the make up artist during a TFP. Note: I hate it when I talk to a new model and they say "I don't need makeup". Everyone needs makeup. May 16 06 03:36 pm Link Miyami wrote: And THAT is what seperates a model from a GWP in my book. May 16 06 03:37 pm Link BCI Photo wrote: I hear what you're saying. I'm all for seeing more professional conduct from everyone on this site. I guess I just feel that everyone one has to start somewhere, you know? And I wish people were a little more forgiving, because it's not easy to put yourself out there. May 16 06 03:37 pm Link Brian Matthews wrote: Don't let Andrew read this. lol May 16 06 03:39 pm Link silly suggestion but could you put your mua fee into your portfolio as well if you two have an agreed upon amount? It may help weed out some but encourage others who think it is too expensive. Some charge 25.00 kit fee and others charge up to 500.00 a day. May 16 06 03:44 pm Link BCI Photo wrote: Ok. I haven't read all the posts yet. But. . . May 16 06 03:46 pm Link I swear Jayne if you don't post new images soon I'm going to drive out and shoot you myself. And then if you don't post new images .......I'll let the mods know you haven't updated your portfolio in a jillian years.....Feel better soon hun. *hugs* Iona Lynn May 16 06 03:50 pm Link Experimental Photoworks wrote: *lol* I just got my 1st nekkids back from Scott today so. . .hopefully I'll have some new images to post very very soon. May 16 06 03:53 pm Link hmm I'm willing to pay the makeup artist. Half the damn time, I cant find one who will respond back to me! So I'm forced to research and hit makeup counters in my search to learn the basics of photography makeup. I ask photographers who have amazing work for their rates, because their work is something I want to have in my book. I do all of this, and yet, I am still only a girl with pictures. I'm sure all of this doesnt qualify you as a model if you pay the makeup artist or photographer. Hmm, maybe I'll be a "model" after I finish the fashion show I'll be in. Hmm *scratches noggin* **edit, please note that I have paid photographers. My current avatar is the result from my paying the photographer. The panache image is the result of me paying a photographer. May 16 06 03:56 pm Link Well see Jayne, some of us do this for a living. So we do get a little miffed when someone wants us to do something that we pay bills with for free with no benefit to us. What i'm saying is, at least offer to cover the MUA's fee. Take my MUA for instance, she's quickly becoming one of Ohios uncovered secrets, and she doesn't charge an arm and a leg. Now if a girl is willing to spend $40 on a club outfit or something frivolous as that, how hard is it to take those same monies and apply it to something that will boost her as an up and coming model? Again, this is what seperates the models from the girls who are just out here taking pics for the sake of taking pics, or worse yet the ones who open up profiles and their whole port for MONTHS are nothing more than pics done by their boyfriend. lol They TALK about scheduling shoots, but the shoots never ever happen. And when they finally DO shoot, it's with the wronkled bedsheet/on camera flash crowd. But I think that has something to do with self esteem and staying in "safe" territory. Never will be models shooting with never will be photogs. GWC's and GWP's. Someone should open up a site for.... Oh wait, nevermind. May 16 06 03:58 pm Link BCI Photo wrote: Ok. I'll take that and I'll raise you this: May 16 06 04:11 pm Link I totally agree with you Jayne. On one hand they're so quick to tell us how we'll never make it as professional models, but then they want to turn around and encourage us to "invest" in our modeling careers by paying them all kinds of money. Look--it's a bad investment if you know it's never go to bring you any returns. (Not that I personally would have any problems paying $40 for MUA.) That's not unprofessionalism, that's realism. May 16 06 04:23 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: If your parents always told you that you weren't shit, would you believe them? I hope not! I know quite a few freelance models who started off struggling, now they're doing pretty good. Most people aren't willing to do that. Besides, there are tons of photographers on MM, so what one isn't willing to do. . .another is. The same can be said about models. . .and MUA"s. . .and stylists. I know, I spoke on them already. To basically demand that she hire the MUA you recommend is inferring that she's not able to do her own makeup. I'm sure you'll want her to pay for prints once you give her the CD and some photographers even charge to retouch photos for models to post in their online ports. So again. . .given that. . .added to the "you internet models don't have a future" spewings by photographers. . .where again is the motivation? I've had newbie models apply their own make up.... That'll NEVER happen again. not with me, anyway. Plus if i'm doing TFP, it's jst that, TFP. You get all your shots, good (90%) and bad (10%), and I do touch ups for free, which is usually color correction (I lose that from the film to CD transfer). This is the purpose of a quality MUA and a skilled photog. you shouldn't have to spend 30 to 45 minutes in photoshop to produce a quality image. Modeling is something I desire to do once I am financially able to put all of my time and concentration into it. Right now I have two jobs to help me pay debts and make ends meet. I know I'm a GWP. . .and I'm okay with that. But unlike you, I feel it's due to my lack of experience, my lack of pictures and my lack of time invested and time constraints. NOT because I shoot when and where I can, and ask photographers for reduced rates, and happen to know a MUA for MAC that goes to my church so she hooks me up from time to time. . .other times I do my own makeup. I know my limitations, so I'm not forsaking my bills to pay for headshots that won't ever get seen and even if they do get seen. . .won't get me gigs. That would be stupid IMO. But overall, pros invest in their future, so I do agree with you there. I'm just not sure I agree with your method of delivery on that point. Dude (figure of speech) you know I LOVE how you come across in photos, and you're doing what you can to be presentable. You know what that means???? May 16 06 04:24 pm Link The irony here is that "real models" seldom do have to pay for testing. There are always great photographers with great ideas that will collaborate with great makeup artists to further their books. That is seldom what goes on here on Model Mayhem. This site is not a reflection of the "real" industry of working models and photographers. If this site was "real", one of the first search engines would be height and then size. If I'm shooting for a client and they have a wardrobe in a certain size, I can't sit here all day on the computer reading the small print that the girl is 5'2. I browse here for people to test but for any true castings, the amount of time to weed out the BS is really not worth it. Like the headline says...this is basically a friendster/myspace for people to stroke ego's. (disclaimer: their is definately some legit talent on here...just few and far between) May 16 06 04:37 pm Link I guess I'm just a GWC but I'm working my way out of that stereotype. ;- P Jason May 16 06 04:39 pm Link It looks like there are two threads on this theme today. Outside of MAJOR fashion and commercial media towns like New York City, and even there, there may be more arguments for not marketing to models than for getting their business. 1. Most fashion (print advertising) competitors, men and women, are not qualified by their measurements. They may or may not be nice people, but for the tape they're not going to be "fit models" or runway talent. A few might hook into a culture or a designer or two who could care less, but that could happen any which way, including street spotting. Basically, if you're shooting largely unqualified fashion models for pay, you're in the same scam zone as so many modeling managers and schools. Good luck to you. 2. Fashion models who may be qualified by face, measurements, and form may still turn out awful models, lol. In that case, assuming you're doing the gray seamless studio thing or some built environment plus accessing MUA and stylist talent, you get a person putting up between $400 and $1,200, maybe more, to learn that you're a photographer, not a magician, and they're tall, well-built people, but they're not going to sell a suit or pump to save their lives. Guess who's going to get half the blame for that? Saying goodbye to someone with buyer's remorse is like planting a minefield in your own backyard. 3. For those interested in commercial, how many have presence and can act (not that they always have to)? At least with that gig, a head shot and two or three lifestyle and other setups may comprise the work and the model can go to the printer, submit to commercial agencies, self-promote to art directors and such, and test the market with not quite so much grief as the fashionista. Here's the question: how much money, on average, will a model with commercial aspirations pay for a head shot and comp card pictures, assuming you'll do all three or four in one session? And how much time do you think it's going to take to edit and serve up that work? There's another program you can trim to sleaze service, but, I guess, it's ethically healthier than what gets pushed to "fashion models". 4. Art, glamour, erotica: who is going to fool who on this? If you're the Internet flesh peddler, the workin' girl gets paid--and then you get paid from customer proceeds. The rest, and most of what passes for "work" in the Internet model-photographer community, amounts to art adventure, art stock (piece work), or art, if it's both good and themed, for eventual but uncertain publication. Most of the time, the girls shouldn't be paid and neither should the photographers for the session. Although some eventual payoff may acrue to the photographer, the outlook's generally uncertain at shooting time--if the parties want to haggle over some percentage of nonexistent royalty, fine. Better customers: private portraiture for business and families; event work (conferences to weddings); commercial services to art directors, corporate or other institutional marketing/PR clients; and adjunct editorial services to broadcast and print media. Finally, there's much to be said for collaborative, unpaid, even . . . GWC photography: it's work made with freedom and serving creativity, expression, and vision with some pretend but not necessarily pretense--sort of like basement band rehearsals and knocking out screenplays in some odd corner of the earth: some of that stuff escapes and makes money; most of the time, it was just great doing it. May 16 06 05:15 pm Link P.S. If a booker sends the model, the model's qualified or on the good side of the edge of it, and the rest is marketing. May 16 06 05:21 pm Link commart wrote: B R A V O!! Very well said IMO. Then again. . what do I know? May 16 06 05:24 pm Link EVERYONE has to start somewhere. Models and Photographers. I remember the days of shooting with bad lighting and bedsheets hung in a borrowed garage. I remember the days of shooting with everyone and anyone I could just to get the experience under my belt. I remember the days when shooting with a GWP was a mutual lucky day. Nobody is magically handed the key to fame and riches without having to climb the ladder. That being said, I totally get where BCI is coming from. Probably one of the best "progression of GWP" descriptions I've read. A good photographer will often have tens of thousands $$$ invested in equipment, studio space, and sets/props. For the amateur model to expect a TFP without at least covering actual costs (MUA at the least) is asking a lot. Chances are, a well established, professional photographer already has a full portfolio, and adding one more "fashion" set doesn't accomplish anything. An aspiring model should either bring something new and exciting to the mix, or offer to cover actual costs for a TFP. Anyone serious about getting farther in the modeling biz should recognize the value of having professional photos in their port, not to mention the potential for contacts a pro can provide. Having a realistic outlook helps a model grow past the GWP phase and at least reach a semi-professional level. It's a LOT of work, make no mistake. The self-made pros that I shoot with work their asses off to find work, make contacts, and boost their careers. There's no easy money here, for photographers and models alike. Chances are a model, even a good one, will still need some kind of day job to pay the rent. There's nothing wrong with being a semi-pro, "weekend" model, where you get to choose what jobs you take and arrange TFPs that benefit everyone involved. Make a little $$$ here, spend a little there. Kicking in a few bucks to work with a real pro is just part of reaching the next threshold in a modeling career. I've shot pro models and amateur models. Personally, I prefer the reliable, semi-experienced weekend variety model over a jaded pro any day of the week. Models who actually WANT to model, not just strike a few poses and collect a check. May 16 06 05:30 pm Link Daniela V wrote: Oh, I dunno, I think it's about even May 16 06 05:35 pm Link Like I've said before... when a MODEL brings $10,000+ in specialized equipment, locations and knowledge of how to use it to a shoot, THEN we can shoot for free. Otherwise, my equipment, time, locaitons, and retouching costs money. Plaain and simple. May 16 06 05:38 pm Link I think that's a really fair assessment, Adam. May 16 06 05:40 pm Link _Cinnamon_ wrote: Its more fun than bumper cars at the fair. May 16 06 05:40 pm Link dude your always bashing models, if we can get it for free from why not??? I kno im not about to offer to pay when i can work with a great photographer for free. May 16 06 05:42 pm Link oops double May 16 06 05:42 pm Link oops triple post May 16 06 05:43 pm Link Incident Image wrote: Because of course the photographer is the only one with skill, and the model has nothing to contribute but money. All of that equipment and knowhow does you know no good without a good model. May 16 06 05:45 pm Link Incident Image wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ May 16 06 05:47 pm Link Jayne Jones wrote: LOL, seriously May 16 06 05:49 pm Link I see a lot of unqualified replies to what i posted, but none that address the issue. Do u expect a plumber to work for free? or anyone you HIRE for that matter? I don't think so. If you were actual AGENCY models, you wouuld know how the REAL system works. May 16 06 05:57 pm Link Incident Image wrote: I do work for an agency. And they pay me, I don't pay the photographers, so I'm not sure what your point is. May 16 06 06:01 pm Link |