CristinaLex wrote:
whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

1-You're new too.
2-TFP/CD is "payment"  The very acronym means "time for print/cd"  That is indeed paying you for your work.  Uh Hello!
3-I'm merely stating I don't understand the logic behind it.  Not bashing it.  Not discrediting those that do it (speaking of getting expenses to shoot out of town instead of a "rate" to shoot out of town). . .meaning why not set a rate and let the model do with the cash what she will.  That's it.
4-that whole "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment. . .I'm sure you will do the same sweetiepie. 

As far as turning this into a "twisted view or argument or something other wise". . .You've got that covered all by yourself.  No one individual post is directed at you personally.  That's why everyone can see it.  You need not take offense to everyone that has a viewpoint different from that of your own.

Tony Culture Photoz wrote:
I can take a decline/refusal to work with me, or whatever. Life goes on, and is certainly NOT centered around what goes on here online.

Don't you just LOVE that?

I often say that if I don't ever shoot another model, I won't keel over and die from starvation. Because it's fun, and I DO get paid for shooting, if I decided to not shoot any more, my world wouldn't end.

CristinaLex wrote:
whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

Okay. 
1-TFP/CD is payment.  That's what "Time for Print/CD" means.
2-Unless they are booking the hotel for you. . .you are being paid to go there.  Sorry. 
3-I never discredited/dissed the practice.  Just don't fully understand the logic b/c it would seem to me that money is money.  Just pay a fee and move on, or just give a CD/the prints and move on.  To give the model money to come to a shoot is indeed payment.  Sorry, but it is.  What you as a model "choose" to do with that money makes no difference.
4-Um. . .last I checked you were new as well.  Funny how that works.  Wish I could take off the "new" hat and put it back on at will.

Concerning your "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment:
1-Uncalled for
2-I'm sure you will do the same (see comment 4 above)


Concerning the "don't try to twist my view into an argument" comment:
1-In forums. . .there are no rules. . .twisting and distorting is allowed.
2-You've already suceeded in turning this into an argument. . .although I don't know why (see the "when you get a little more experience" comments you made earlier).  As a model, I find your look competitive.  As a person, I think your attitude needs a little work.  Everyone isn't out to get you or tear you down, so you really don't need to talk to everyone like they are.

I have a perspective to lend to this forum as well.  I choose to do so, just like you do.  I may not agree with your view, but I respect YOU as a person for having it.  I've never once tried to tear you down, so your little comments about my lack of experience were uncalled for.  Period.  Besides. . .I said I was a novice myself LONG before you did in this thread.  So what's your point????  I've never professed to know everything.  Just disagreed with you.  Clearly, you're threatened by an opposing viewpoint.  To me. . .that's a serious sign of immaturity.  But that's just my opinion.

CristinaLex wrote:
whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

Okay. 
1-TFP/CD is payment.  That's what "Time for Print/CD" means.
2-Unless they are booking the hotel for you. . .you are being paid to go there.  Sorry. 
3-I never discredited/dissed the practice.  Just don't fully understand the logic b/c it would seem to me that money is money.  Just pay a fee and move on, or just give a CD/the prints and move on.  To give the model money to come to a shoot is indeed payment.  Sorry, but it is.  What you as a model "choose" to do with that money makes no difference.
4-Um. . .last I checked you were new as well.  Funny how that works.  Wish I could take off the "new" hat and put it back on at will.

Concerning your "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment:
1-Uncalled for
2-I'm sure you will do the same (see comment 4 above)


Concerning the "don't try to twist my view into an argument" comment:
1-In forums. . .there are no rules. . .twisting and distorting is allowed.
2-You've already suceeded in turning this into an argument. . .although I don't know why (see the "when you get a little more experience" comments you made earlier).  As a model, I find your look competitive.  As a person, I think your attitude needs a little work.  Everyone isn't out to get you or tear you down, so you really don't need to talk to everyone like they are.

I have a perspective to lend to this forum as well.  I choose to do so, just like you do.  I may not agree with your view, but I respect YOU as a person for having it.  I've never once tried to tear you down, so your little comments about my lack of experience were uncalled for.  Period.  Besides. . .I said I was a novice myself LONG before you did in this thread.  So what's your point????  I've never professed to know everything.  Just disagreed with you.  Clearly, you're threatened by an opposing viewpoint.  To me. . .that's a serious sign of immaturity.  But that's just my opinion.

CristinaLex wrote:
whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

Okay. 
1-TFP/CD is payment.  That's what "Time for Print/CD" means.
2-Unless they are booking the hotel for you. . .you are being paid to go there.  Sorry. 
3-I never discredited/dissed the practice.  Just don't fully understand the logic b/c it would seem to me that money is money.  Just pay a fee and move on, or just give a CD/the prints and move on.  To give the model money to come to a shoot is indeed payment.  Sorry, but it is.  What you as a model "choose" to do with that money makes no difference.
4-Um. . .last I checked you were new as well.  Funny how that works.  Wish I could take off the "new" hat and put it back on at will.

Concerning your "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment:
1-Uncalled for
2-I'm sure you will do the same (see comment 4 above)


Concerning the "don't try to twist my view into an argument" comment:
1-In forums. . .there are no rules. . .twisting and distorting is allowed.
2-You've already suceeded in turning this into an argument. . .although I don't know why (see the "when you get a little more experience" comments you made earlier).  As a model, I find your look competitive.  As a person, I think your attitude needs a little work.  Everyone isn't out to get you or tear you down, so you really don't need to talk to everyone like they are.

I have a perspective to lend to this forum as well.  I choose to do so, just like you do.  I may not agree with your view, but I respect YOU as a person for having it.  I've never once tried to tear you down, so your little comments about my lack of experience were uncalled for.  Period.  Besides. . .I said I was a novice myself LONG before you did in this thread.  So what's your point????  I've never professed to know everything.  Just disagreed with you.  Clearly, you're threatened by an opposing viewpoint.  To me. . .that's a serious sign of immaturity.  But that's just my opinion.

CristinaLex wrote:
whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

Okay. 
1-TFP/CD is payment.  That's what "Time for Print/CD" means.
2-Unless they are booking the hotel for you. . .you are being paid to go there.  Sorry. 
3-I never discredited/dissed the practice.  Just don't fully understand the logic b/c it would seem to me that money is money.  Just pay a fee and move on, or just give a CD/the prints and move on.  To give the model money to come to a shoot is indeed payment.  Sorry, but it is.  What you as a model "choose" to do with that money makes no difference.
4-Um. . .last I checked you were new as well.  Funny how that works.  Wish I could take off the "new" hat and put it back on at will.

Concerning your "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment:
1-Uncalled for
2-I'm sure you will do the same (see comment 4 above)


Concerning the "don't try to twist my view into an argument" comment:
1-In forums. . .there are no rules. . .twisting and distorting is allowed.
2-You've already suceeded in turning this into an argument. . .although I don't know why (see the "when you get a little more experience" comments you made earlier).  As a model, I find your look competitive.  As a person, I think your attitude needs a little work.  Everyone isn't out to get you or tear you down, so you really don't need to talk to everyone like they are.

I have a perspective to lend to this forum as well.  I choose to do so, just like you do.  I may not agree with your view, but I respect YOU as a person for having it.  I've never once tried to tear you down, so your little comments about my lack of experience were uncalled for.  Period.  Besides. . .I said I was a novice myself LONG before you did in this thread.  So what's your point????  I've never professed to know everything.  Just disagreed with you.  Clearly, you're threatened by an opposing viewpoint.  To me. . .that's a serious sign of immaturity.  But that's just my opinion.

Jayne Jones wrote:

1-You're new too.
2-TFP/CD is "payment"  The very acronym means "time for print/cd"  That is indeed paying you for your work.  Uh Hello!
3-I'm merely stating I don't understand the logic behind it.  Not bashing it.  Not discrediting those that do it (speaking of getting expenses to shoot out of town instead of a "rate" to shoot out of town). . .meaning why not set a rate and let the model do with the cash what she will.  That's it.
4-that whole "let me know when you a lil more experience" comment. . .I'm sure you will do the same sweetiepie. 

As far as turning this into a "twisted view or argument or something other wise". . .You've got that covered all by yourself.  No one individual post is directed at you personally.  That's why everyone can see it.  You need not take offense to everyone that has a viewpoint different from that of your own.

Jayne,


Here's an example of a tfcd shoot where the model get's paid travel. 
a model and i want to work together.  She lives an hour away.  we both want to develop our portfolios, so we agree to trade services, she models for me in exchange for copies of the photos i shoot on a cd.  I'm a nice guy and like her look so i offer her gas money.... let's say $25.  Now isn't that a more desirable situation than "here's $25 for you to drive an hour to sit for me in my studio and that's all you get.  I'm paying you, so there's no copy of the photos on cd, just the flat fee.. do with it what you want."  Sounds like a bad deal for the model.  Sounds like a good deal for me because I'd easily part with a flat rate of $25 a shoot to not have to process photos and burn them to a cd for the model.

This thread has just gone on way too long over nothing....  oh, and let's not forget that for the $25 flat fee, i get a "happy ending".  Yes, it's true... you didn't read your contract... it's in the small print on page 425.  The lotion is on the shelf over there."

Ian Weintraub wrote:
Here's an example of a tfcd shoot where the model get's paid travel. 
a model and i want to work together.  She lives an hour away.  we both want to develop our portfolios, so we agree to trade services, she models for me in exchange for copies of the photos i shoot on a cd.  I'm a nice guy and like her look so i offer her gas money.... let's say $25.

I get THAT.  That's not complicated.  I'm talking about I live in DC and you want me to come to Cali to shoot, but I need a hotel and food and yadda yadda yadda.  THAT's what I DON'T get.

Alas.  Perhaps I'm not meant to understand the universe, but merely exist within it.  Hmmmm.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Just a thought....
I know everyone puts up a thread like this now and then, but I haven't quite seen it put this way....

I've seen a couple of new and unproven models post some serious laundry lists of stipulations regarding what they won't do, demanding only paid shoots, saying they will always bring an escort, requests from prospective photographers on how to contact them, requirements photogs must apply to....yet all the while displaying cell phone images or not much better.
Wouldn't it be in their best interest in working with a few photographers, gaining tangible experience and a viable online portfolio before displaying a sense of unwarranted arrogance and primadonna syndrome that might cause some experienced and talented photogs to pass, in turn causing their portfolios to suffer?

hmmmm.......

Those are the ones who not only go right to the top of my "never shoot with..." list, they're the reason I created one!!!!

There are some things where the hassles are NOT worth the MONEY, many of these wannabie models fit that catagory!

Albie Bruno wrote:
Just a thought....

(regarding new models with long "laundry list" of stips and demands)

Wouldn't it be in their best interest in working with a few photographers, gaining tangible experience and a viable online portfolio before displaying a sense of unwarranted arrogance and primadonna syndrome that might cause some experienced and talented photogs to pass, in turn causing their portfolios to suffer?

hmmmm.......

This is what I said the first time around....
How did we stray?

Jayne Jones wrote:

I get THAT.  That's not complicated.  I'm talking about I live in DC and you want me to come to Cali to shoot, but I need a hotel and food and yadda yadda yadda.  THAT's what I DON'T get.

Alas.  Perhaps I'm not meant to understand the universe, but merely exist within it.  Hmmmm.

ok.. that's something different and i have no idea what you all were talking about before i came back to this ridiculously long thread...
i'll shut up now.

Ian Weintraub wrote:

ok.. that's something different and i have no idea what you all were talking about before i came back to this ridiculously long thread...
i'll shut up now.

LOL

VRG Photography wrote:
Makes sense to me, Ian.

In other words, if you paid the model $25 instead of giving her money for travel, then technically, you wouldn't owe her anything but a "Thank you."

By helping with expenses (which I've done before), it helps both of you out.

exactly what i meant...

Ian Weintraub wrote:

exactly what i meant...

I get all that.  Okay perhaps I'm not confused after all.

Jayne Jones wrote:
This is called a thread gone wild.

*not affiliated with Girls Gone Wild, Models Gone Wild, or Photographers Gone Wild . .all rights reserved by Albie Gone Wild Inc.*

I believe it was YOU, miss Jones who ruined this thread...as far as I'm concerned, you hijacked this thread with the single purpose of distorting peoples words....job well done

Albie Bruno wrote:
I believe it was YOU, miss Jones who ruined this thread

Well that all depends on how you define "ruined".

Albie, everyone has an opinion.  Unfortunately for you that includes me.  If I don't understand something. . .I could have sworn it was not the MM way to "shred" and "blatatly disrespect" me for that.  I've never once disrespected you.  I've merely asked questions.  Clearly, you have an issue with my point of view. . .which was from that of a new model with somewhat of a laundry list.  What did you expect????  Everyone to agree with you??  Dream on my friend.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Well that all depends on how you define "ruined".

Albie, everyone has an opinion.  Unfortunately for you that includes me.  If I don't understand something. . .I could have sworn it was not the MM way to "shred" and "blatatly disrespect" me for that.  I've never once disrespected you.  I've merely asked questions.  Clearly, you have an issue with my point of view. . .which was from that of a new model with somewhat of a laundry list.  What did you expect????  Everyone to agree with you??  Dream on my friend.

He has not really disrepsected any one in this room...and he has not really gotten tht upset from other people views...
and no disrepsect 2 you ...but most threads i have been in you have posted and you do have a way of distorting peoples words and or posting what they just wrote instead of saying what YOU feel and keep it moving and not aruging with someone about their POV...

Albie Bruno wrote:
Miss Jones....you began by quoting me, then misquoting others, then drawing the ire of a few... not just me.....and then....Albie gone wild....

This was a lighthearted thread that YOU misunderstood, got offended by, and twisted around into what it is now which is just people trading banter with.....You

I offered a peace offering a while back, but you stepped all over that, so....as I said, job well done

Funny thing quotes. . .they're somewhat filled in for you once you press the "quote" button.

Must have missed the apology b/c I could have sworn you said "apology accepted" to me. . .when I didn't even apologize.  Funny thing apologies.

Concerning Albie gone wild. . .that was a joke.  Hence it being thrown in with girls gone wild and models gone wild and the rest.  You must have missed that part.

CristinaLex wrote:
He has not really disrepsected any one in this room...and he has not really gotten tht upset from other people views...
and no disrepsect 2 you ...but most threads i have been in you have posted and you do have a way of distorting peoples words and or posting what they just wrote instead of saying what YOU feel and keep it moving and not aruging with someone about their POV...

Saying I ruined the thread and misquoted people in an effor to twist the post to a conversation with me, wasn't disrespectful?  Wow.  Now I know where you stand.

Funny you should mention "distorting people's words" because as I recall Cristina. . .your very first thread was sparked from you doing that very thing.  Interesting.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Albie Bruno wrote:
It seems someone has missed the point altogether.....

let me restate my point more succinctly.....
When you are first starting off in ANY industry, don't let your ego get the best of you as you might not be as good as you think...yet.

Allow yourself to develop a book before you give yourself Kate Moss importance

I don't think a photog should expect to not pay a new model at all...I just don't think a new and unestablished model should expect to be paid out of the gates.....

I'm sorry.  I'm still not "getting" it.  Asking to be paid is a matter of ego if you don't have a port???  Is that what you're saying??  I would think that the better "point" would be the fee that she's comanding as opposed to the fact that she asked for a fee.  *scratches head*


I guess by that level of logic, if one doesn't have any experience working for McDonald's one should not "expect" to be paid to work there.  Work is work.  Period.  People get paid to work in this country (well. . .for the most part) the "level" of pay (or rather "rate" of pay) one receives differs upon experience not "being paid."  Or at least that's what they taught me in school. . .which sparked me to get a job.  Being a model is a job ultimately.  Models get paid just like photogs get paid.  But maybe you are saying that new models should be paid???  I'm confused.

Are you not understanding that TFP/TFCD ISS Payment!  If an experienced photographer offers to shoot you for tfp, whether he/she contacted you first or not, you should be smart enough to know that good images get you paid jobs.  I hope you get paid for every job you do.. really.  Maybe you can teach the thousands and thousands of other new models how to acheive that.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
Ladies, I'm about to start selling popcorn for this event.

Mikiepoo I know you didn't just call Albie a lady.  Lemme stop before that turns into me distorting people's words and whatnot.


Seriously though. . .I have an opinion just like anyone else.  He asked about why new models do bla bla bla (read the OP) so as a "new model" I spoke up.  Sure I don't understand a lot of stuff, but not once have I "distorted" something another person in this thread has posted.  I've merely expressed my perspective/opinion.  I have a right to that, and quite frankly. . .the mere fact that the post is here to begin with leaves the OP open to this very thing happening.

Unless of course we all want to pretend that Albie's post was "special" and that this never would have happened had I not said anything.  Unprovable at best.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Saying I ruined the thread and misquoted people in an effor to twist the post to a conversation with me, wasn't disrespectful?  Wow.  Now I know where you stand.

Funny you should mention "distorting people's words" because as I recall Cristina. . .your very first thread was sparked from you doing that very thing.  Interesting.

yea and i learned tht mistake and info for u the bridges were burned....thanks for REMINDING ME.....people......

Danielle A wrote:
Danielle's mum here.

The best advice my daughter ever received was from an experienced model who said he did tons of comp work and tons of TFP work at the start to get his name out there and his book filled out.

If you haven't worked a lot, you don't have the experience. She has made a lot more connections and gotten her name out there by shooting, not by sitting home waiting for someone to pay her.

Marilyn

Marilyn, you are fantastic!  Wisest words I've heard in a LONG time.

Bethany Gilbert Photo wrote:
Are you not understanding that TFP/TFCD ISS Payment!  If an experienced photographer offers to shoot you for tfp, whether he/she contacted you first or not, you should be smart enough to know that good images get you paid jobs.  I hope you get paid for every job you do.. really.  Maybe you can teach the thousands and thousands of other new models how to acheive that.

Funny. . .when I said that. . .it was wrong.  Let's see what happens now that Bethany says the same thing.

Albie Bruno wrote:
With that I ask 2 basic questions.....
1) Why are some new models so infused with the notion that they MUST be paid in return for developing their own portfolios?

2) If  a new model insists on being paid in exchange for posing for My portfolio, am I obliged to give them an image from the shoot?

The second is an EXCELLENT question. The first is pretty darned good too.

CristinaLex wrote:
yea and i learned tht mistake and info for u the bridges were burned....thanks for REMINDING ME.....people......

Sorry to hear that, but that's a tad misleading from the comments you and Isa make about each other.  From those. . .bridges are still in tact.

My point was, people living in glass houses ought not throw stones.  Wasn't taking a pot shot, but rather giving you a little "reminder".  Didn't mean for it to be hurtful though.  Remember that "thick skin" we discussed in that other thread.

Besides, my beef is not with you Cristina. . .although we have conflicting viewpoints. . .my beef is with Albie.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Sorry to hear that, but that's a tad misleading from the comments you and Isa make about each other.  From those. . .bridges are still in tact.

My point was, people living in glass houses ought not throw stones.  Wasn't taking a pot shot, but rather giving you a little "reminder".  Didn't mean for it to be hurtful though.  Remember that "thick skin" we discussed in that other thread.

Besides, my beef is not with you Cristina. . .although we have conflicting viewpoints. . .my beef is with Albie.

i could care less what beef is with who....me and Isa have talked thts done with...we learned from misunderstanding...ur misunderstanding people or trying to understand them but at the same time trying to make them sound stupid....if your new there not much you know..so whay try to quote some ones words and make remarks about how they see things if you havent had tht much experience....just a view in the eye of a tiger....

Jeanette Thompson wrote:
Ah, even more dwama.  Who's got the popcorn?

Despite "appearances" the OP lives on.  See two posts ago.

Jeanette Thompson wrote:
Ah, even more dwama.  Who's got the popcorn?

You want butter?

I just took some out of the microwave.

(BTW, nice portfolio!)