Iona Lynn wrote:
Shhhh........
The newbie’s may learn something from you.
Someone somewhere told them modeling was easy money and they believed them.
no really, some of us put up those faux portfolios to make the rest of us look better.......then we get more jobs....

and someone somewhere told me that being a photographer was an easy way to get girls naked... and i believed them. Now my aspirations to be a GWC has been ruined by a desire to make art.... I should have gone with a half-rack of beer, dinner at the Olive garden and "The Notebook" on dvd back at my place.   

Iona Lynn wrote:
Shhhh........
The newbie’s may learn something from you.
Someone somewhere told them modeling was easy money and they believed them.
no really, some of us put up those faux portfolios to make the rest of us look better.......then we get more jobs....

I knew something was up. Those profiles are too ludicrous to be real.

Iona Lynn wrote:
lol david. I never knew the extent of it untill I made my photography port and looked for models in my area. Wow now I get it wll I don't get it but are they for real????
On the other side of the camera I have had the oposite happen to me. some random photog demands I shoot with him to improve my port and all he has up are fuzzy images my cat could have shot better.


OP it's ok just keep looking for someone you want to shoot with it will happen.

Oh, I hear ya, there are some interesting photographer portfolios out there too!

Iona Lynn wrote:
lol ... some random photog demands I shoot with him to improve my port and all he has up are fuzzy images my cat could have shot better.

Your cat is a photographer??
I had a parrot once who was an attorney!  Well, not technically.. he never passed the bar.... he just sat on it all day, ringing that damned bell and  saying "I Object!"

Albie Bruno wrote:
Hmmm...
I wonder if it is all ego driven when a model posts those lists of stips and demands.....or if it's just what she sees other models post that do get regular work....

I am a model that is just starting out and I have a list of work that I will do and express what I will not do.  I totally understand the "need" to build a port, but there is just some work that I'm uncomfortable with.  So are you offended that I am outlining the type of work that I am uncomfortable with??  Are you saying I should be open/grateful for anything because I am new and it ultimately will help me build my port???  I disagree.  I don't believe in wasting people's time.  I won't pose nude.  I'm just not comfortable with the fact that my dad (who just happens to be a minister) may log onto the net and see his "baby girl's" boobies. . .knowing someone in his congregation may also see them.  That's just me.  I also feel that you should never compromise yourself in an effort to get ahead.  So knowing how I feel about direct nudity. . .why would I leave myself open for a photog to contact me for a nude shoot???  That's just a waste of time for the photog and for me.  But that Sir is my humble opinion.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Hmmm...
I wonder if it is all ego driven....
With that I ask 2 basic questions.....
1) Why are some new models so infused with the notion that they MUST be paid in return for developing their own portfolios?

2) If  a new model insists on being paid in exchange for posing for My portfolio, am I obliged to give them an image from the shoot?

Regarding the second question, I generally offer images to the models I shoot whether it's a paid shoot or not ....the point is that I had to pay my dues at first...shouldn't we all?

Well. . .when you started out, you paid the models to shoot with you right??  A lot of photogs will pay experienced models and inexperienced models as well to achieve a desired look.  It may/may not be a matter of preferance. . .I really don't know b/c I'm not a photog.  However, time is time.  I don't think that any photog should automatically expect a new model to pose unpaid merely because she's new.  That's somewhat of an ego boost for the photog don't you think???  What's stopping you from making money off models without paying them???  That's also somewhat unethical in my opinion.

I think it's just like dating.  If a model contacts you, I would think you should expect to be paid.  Period.  She called you.  If you contacted her, I think there is something seriously wrong with expecting her to commit to speding time on a shoot, giving 110% and whatnot. . .all in the name of "building a portfolio."  I thought your portfolio was what YOU wanted. . .and was ultimately showcasing YOU, not filled with things that people so graciously let you have.  That's just me.  I will gladly pay any photog to help me build my port with images that will help me in the type of modeling I want to do.  It doesn't help me to have random images of different genres in my port. . .no matter how awesome they are.  I can't walk into an agency saying I want to do glamour and have a port full of fashion.  That doesn't help me.

Jayne Jones wrote:
I totally understand the "need" to build a port, but there is just some work that I'm uncomfortable with.  So are you offended that I am outlining the type of work that I am uncomfortable with??  Are you saying I should be open/grateful for anything because I am new and it ultimately will help me build my port???  I disagree.  I don't believe in wasting people's time.  I won't pose nude.  I'm just not comfortable with the fact that my minister father may log onto the net and see his "baby girl's" boobies. . .knowing someone in his congregation may also see them.  That's just me.  I also feel that you should never compromise yourself in an effort to get ahead.

None of my posts mentioned Nude. In my first post I said post what you won't do and most photogs will respect that,.....it's the list of conditions:
You must be established, you must supply make-up artist, you must send refs in advance, I must bring escort, I must get equal usage rights....blah, blah, blah.....

If you don't want to pose Nude, that is your prerogative....
That is also another thread....

Jayne Jones wrote:

I am a model that is just starting out and I have a list of work that I will do and express what I will not do.  I totally understand the "need" to build a port, but there is just some work that I'm uncomfortable with.  So are you offended that I am outlining the type of work that I am uncomfortable with??  Are you saying I should be open/grateful for anything because I am new and it ultimately will help me build my port???  I disagree.  I don't believe in wasting people's time.  I won't pose nude.  I'm just not comfortable with the fact that my dad (who just happens to be a minister) may log onto the net and see his "baby girl's" boobies. . .knowing someone in his congregation may also see them.  That's just me.  I also feel that you should never compromise yourself in an effort to get ahead.  So knowing how I feel about direct nudity. . .why would I leave myself open for a photog to contact me for a nude shoot???  That's just a waste of time for the photog and for me.  But that Sir is my humble opinion.

no one is complaining about new models stating their boundaries....that is never a bad thing to do. matter of fact, i think it is something to be admired, many new models don't even know what their limits are.
the complaint is about new models who think that they should be paid for every shoot they do, nude or not.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well. . .when you started out, you paid the models to shoot with you right??  A lot of photogs will pay experienced models and inexperienced models as well to achieve a desired look.

  I don't think that any photog should automatically expect a new model to pose unpaid merely because she's new.

What's stopping you from making money off models without paying them???

It seems someone has missed the point altogether.....

let me restate my point more succinctly.....
When you are first starting off in ANY industry, don't let your ego get the best of you as you might not be as good as you think...yet.

Allow yourself to develop a book before you give yourself Dean Johnson importance

I don't think a photog should expect to not pay a new model at all...I just don't think a new and unestablished model should expect to be paid out of the gates.....

Now I firmly believe that photographers should always make their picture use intentions known to the models and never waiver from those intentions, whether TFP/CD or not.

Ethics are another thread as well

Albie Bruno wrote:
It seems someone has missed the point altogether.....

let me restate my point more succinctly.....
When you are first starting off in ANY industry, don't let your ego get the best of you as you might not be as good as you think...yet.

Allow yourself to develop a book before you give yourself Kate Moss importance

I don't think a photog should expect to not pay a new model at all...I just don't think a new and unestablished model should expect to be paid out of the gates.....

I'm sorry.  I'm still not "getting" it.  Asking to be paid is a matter of ego if you don't have a port???  Is that what you're saying??  I would think that the better "point" would be the fee that she's comanding as opposed to the fact that she asked for a fee.  *scratches head*

Albie Bruno wrote:
When you are first starting off in ANY industry, don't let your ego get the best of you as you might not be as good as you think...yet.

I guess by that level of logic, if one doesn't have any experience working for McDonald's one should not "expect" to be paid to work there.  Work is work.  Period.  People get paid to work in this country (well. . .for the most part) the "level" of pay (or rather "rate" of pay) one receives differs upon experience not "being paid."  Or at least that's what they taught me in school. . .which sparked me to get a job.  Being a model is a job ultimately.  Models get paid just like photogs get paid.  But maybe you are saying that new models should be paid???  I'm confused.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Hmmm...
I wonder if it is all ego driven when a model posts those lists of stips and demands.....or if it's just what she sees other models post that do get regular work....

I enjoy shooting new models as well, but when I was beginning to develop my portfolio, I realized it was in my best interest to find more experienced models and draw from their experience in order to gain stronger images. It went without a thought that I'd have to pay in order to get a strong portfolio off the top.

With that I ask 2 basic questions.....
1) Why are some new models so infused with the notion that they MUST be paid in return for developing their own portfolios?

2) If  a new model insists on being paid in exchange for posing for My portfolio, am I obliged to give them an image from the shoot?

Regarding the second question, I generally offer images to the models I shoot whether it's a paid shoot or not ....the point is that I had to pay my dues at first...shouldn't we all?

1. I think the demand to be paid right out of the gate comes from seeing all the other models who get paid and they just copy the text. monkey see monkey do. also I was offered paid work in less than a month of modeling. Some photogs offer paid work to all the newbies and well if you get paid once you should never go back right? (I also paid for my begining port to be shot profesionaly so I started with images that were a bit ahead of the game)

2. Nope, you are not obligated to give them anything besides the amount agreed upon for the shoot. I have receved images from paid jobs before, I was very gratefull. sometimes I work for prints, sometimes I work for pay, sometimes I work for both, each and every shoot is diffrent

Albie Bruno wrote:
Just a thought....
I know everyone puts up a thread like this now and then, but I haven't quite seen it put this way....

I've seen a couple of new and unproven models post some serious laundry lists of stipulations regarding what they won't do, demanding only paid shoots, saying they will always bring an escort, requests from prospective photographers on how to contact them, requirements photogs must apply to....yet all the while displaying cell phone images or not much better.
Wouldn't it be in their best interest in working with a few photographers, gaining tangible experience and a viable online portfolio before displaying a sense of unwarranted arrogance and primadonna syndrome that might cause some experienced and talented photogs to pass, in turn causing their portfolios to suffer?

hmmmm.......

Now in my moderately educated opinion, that addresses a few things that you have observed about new model profiles/pages.
1: Stipulations regarding what they won't do
2: Demanding only paid shoots
3: Saying they will always bring an escort
4: Requests from prospective photographers on how to contact them
5  Requirements photogs must apply to
6: No port

Phoenix E wrote:
no one is complaining about new models stating their boundaries....that is never a bad thing to do. matter of fact, i think it is something to be admired, many new models don't even know what their limits are.
the complaint is about new models who think that they should be paid for every shoot they do, nude or not.

Okay, if you are setting out to model. . .unless you are "experienced" (which, by the way, no one seems to have an exact answer to regarding how/when you cross over from inexperienced to experienced. . .see thread: https://www.modelmayhem.com/posts.php?thread_id=30915) the general perception is that you should not "expect" to be paid.  Interesting.

Albie Bruno wrote:
It seems someone has missed the point altogether.....

let me restate my point more succinctly.....
When you are first starting off in ANY industry, don't let your ego get the best of you as you might not be as good as you think...yet.

Allow yourself to develop a book before you give yourself Kate Moss importance

I don't think a photog should expect to not pay a new model at all...I just don't think a new and unestablished model should expect to be paid out of the gates.....

Now I firmly believe that photographers should always make their picture use intentions known to the models and never waiver from those intentions, whether TFP/CD or not.

Ethics are another thread as well

That seems a tad wishy washy.  On the one hand. . .photographers working with inexperienced models should expect to pay them.  On the other hand, inexperienced models should not expect to be paid.  Hmmm.  Interesting.

Albie Bruno wrote:
To Miss Jones,
Modeling is a career and models are essentially Entrepeneurs.
When I embarked on my Graphic Design career, I had to endure years of Pro-Buono work to develop my portfolio. Eventually, my book was good enough that I could demand a certain rate for my work. The same applies to many successful Artists, Designer, Photographers and yes....Models.

I never set out to single you out, you seemed to have distorted my initial statements to appear as an attack on all new and inexperienced models. It wasn't. It was constructive criticism phrased in the form of a question. Everyone else seems to have gotten my meaning. Please instead of closing your mind to what I am really saying, embrace the meaning and run with it....if it applies to you. By the looks of your portfolio's opening page....it does not.

We are all networking here...perhaps one day we will even shoot together!
(TFP/CD of course)

Funny, but I thought entrepreneurs went into business to make money.  Guess I need to get my money back from that course in college.  Wow. 

Albie Bruno wrote:
I never set out to single you out, you seemed to have distorted my initial statements to appear as an attack on all new and inexperienced models. It wasn't. It was constructive criticism phrased in the form of a question. Everyone else seems to have gotten my meaning. Please instead of closing your mind to what I am really saying, embrace the meaning and run with it....if it applies to you. By the looks of your portfolio's opening page....it does not.

We are all networking here...perhaps one day we will even shoot together!
(TFP/CD of course)

I never got that impression.  I was merely lending the "new model" perspective.  Particularly the new model perspective who's MM page addresses a few of the "laundry list" of items you addressed in your post.  If my opinon about the subject you brought up offends you personally. . .you ought not ask a question you don't want to know the answer to.  And by the time I get to NYC. . .I plan to be experienced, so unfortunately I don't plan doing much TFP/CD by then. 



I just feel that your post was primarily stating that new models shouldn't have aspirations about whom they'd like to work with (if you see good photog ports. . .why not desire to work with whom you feel is good/stellar/aweome???  Who cares that you're new???), and that they shouldn't expect to be paid.  I disagree with the latter (although I don't "demand" it) b/c I feel it's precisely like KatieK says:  if you only do TFP that's all that will be in your port.  I know that part of being a successful model is "paying" for a "professionally" done port.  I feel a lot of new models feel the same way.  I also feel it is a tad presumptuous to say that new models shouldn't expect to be paid.  You said yourself that just because they're new doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid. . .so why not ask???  Closed mouths don't get fed.


Ultimately I agree that you can't command/demand top dollar if you're new to the biz.  I don't think that any new models are doing that though.  I may be naive on that part of it, but ultimately. . .work is work and people get paid to work.  That's the bottom line.  Concerning always having an escort. . .I feel you got nothing there.  People nowadays are a whole new breed of psychotic/crazy so that's just a safety thing.  Why not give the model props for letting you know up front what you are dealing with???  Who likes surprises???  Why is this so-called "laundry list" not viewed as an attempt to be professional?  They are outlining what they will do.  They are telling you up front they want a safe environment (hence the escort).  They are telling you they want to work with pro's (hence the desired photographers they want to work with).  And they're telling you how much they feel they're worth.  What's not to like/somewhat admire about that???  Sure. . .not much "work" will come of it but you got to admit. . .there should be very few suprises on the shoot if/when that happens.  Everything was laid out before hand.  Kind of like car shopping.  They're just showing you the sticker price.  So kick the tires and walk away if you don't want to buy the car.  After a while. . .the price goes down. . .more people look.  Same thing applies here I think.  I don't see a problem.  So I guess by those standards. . .I do miss the point of this thread entirely.  Wow I'm slow!

Jayne Jones wrote:
...by the time I get to NYC. . .I plan to be experienced, so unfortunately I don't plan doing much TFP/CD by then. 

Well then in that case, when you get to NYC, you can drop in on my exhibit at the MoMA

Jayne Jones wrote:
I'm sorry.  I'm still not "getting" it.

Apology accepted

Albie Bruno wrote:

Well then in that case, when you get to NYC, you can drop in on my exhibit at the MoMA

Of course dahling!  If I have time!  Ciao!

Albie Bruno wrote:
Apology accepted

HA!!!!!!!!

Question:  what model refused to work with you?  Just asking b/c you seem 1-admittedly new to "photography" as opposed to having "10 years of graphic design" experience and 2-a tad miffed.  I find it curious that you also seem to be choosey about whom you pay.  What makes that any different from being choosey about whom you TFP/CD from a model's standpoint??  Just curious.

Kitapanda wrote:
I personally insist on shooting only with photographers who have had a tear sheet or advertisement featured in a big name magazine.

Said photographer is expected to pay me at least $75 an hour.

Twice as much for nudes.

You know what? Scratch that. I won't do nudes. Only implieds in which the essential pieces are allowed to be covered only by my hands, a white bed sheet or roses. And said nudes are allowed only to be taken on a floral print sofa. See my port for examples of that.

In addition to paying me, the photographer must make accomodations to entertain my boyfriend and my tea cup maltese named ninu. And provide a full styling team to make me appear to be the 130 lbs I claim to be on my port.

Are these ridiculous demands? Of course not! I mean, that's what I deserve for being beautiful, right? Right?

All jokes aside, I do have a line about always being accompanied. It's kind of a lie, I'm not always accompanied. I am sometimes, but not always. It's mostly to scare away "undesirables".

And if you don't shower Ninu with attention. . .you'd better watch out.  He nips!  And that hurts like a bitch!!

Jayne Jones wrote:
...by the time I get to NYC. . .I plan to be experienced, so unfortunately I don't plan doing much TFP/CD by then. 

Albie Bruno wrote:
Well then in that case, when you get to NYC, you can drop in on my exhibit at the MoMA

heh....ah, i like you

Jayne Jones wrote:

And if you don't shower Ninu with attention. . .you'd better watch out.  He nips!  And that hurts like a bitch!!

Better believe it. Tiny dogs are the angriest.

lol. Hurts like a bitch. Cuz Ninu's a dog. Get it? haha

Jayne Jones wrote:
I just feel that your post was primarily stating that new models shouldn't have aspirations about whom they'd like to work with (if you see good photog ports. . .why not desire to work with whom you feel is good/stellar/aweome???  Who cares that you're new???), and that they shouldn't expect to be paid.  I disagree with the latter (although I don't "demand" it) b/c I feel it's precisely like KatieK says:  if you only do TFP that's all that will be in your port.  I know that part of being a successful model is "paying" for a "professionally" done port.  I feel a lot of new models feel the same way.  I also feel it is a tad presumptuous to say that new models shouldn't expect to be paid.  You said yourself that just because they're new doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid. . .so why not ask???  Closed mouths don't get fed.


Ultimately I agree that you can't command/demand top dollar if you're new to the biz.  I don't think that any new models are doing that though.  I may be naive on that part of it, but ultimately. . .work is work and people get paid to work.  That's the bottom line.  Concerning always having an llama herder. . .I feel you got nothing there.  People nowadays are a whole new breed of psychotic/crazy so that's just a safety thing.  Why not give the model props for letting you know up front what you are dealing with???  Who likes surprises???  Why is this so-called "laundry list" not viewed as an attempt to be professional?  They are outlining what they will do.  They are telling you up front they want a safe environment (hence the llama herder).  They are telling you they want to work with pro's (hence the desired photographers they want to work with).  And they're telling you how much they feel they're worth.  What's not to like/somewhat admire about that???  Sure. . .not much "work" will come of it but you got to admit. . .there should be very few suprises on the shoot if/when that happens.  Everything was laid out before hand.  Kind of like car shopping.  They're just showing you the sticker price.  So kick the tires and walk away if you don't want to buy the car.  After a while. . .the price goes down. . .more people look.  Same thing applies here I think.  I don't see a problem.  So I guess by those standards. . .I do miss the point of this thread entirely.  Wow I'm slow!

That's the problem Jayne there are models on here that have neve rbeen to a profesional shoot or have been to one shoot that are trying to command top dollar.

Saftey is an issue yes but the llama herders are anew thing with all the internet modeling and gwc's and such. I have worked with some high end photographers who shoot agency fashion models. They don't even know what an llama herder is. Prostitutes bring llama herders not models.

As for working with pros, some pro photographers will not usally waste time with un tested internet models. waht is the point what do they bring to the table??

this is all about coliberation each person brings something to the table there are a lot for girls trying to bring tough dried out stew meat and demanding filet minion prices.

for instance I know you don't do nudes but with your current port if you asked me (i'm also am a photographer) to shoot you nude for 125.00 hour I'd turn you down.(or require a test shoot)  I need to see what I am shooting first. A lot of girls do that or they have three nude images on ther port and they say they don't shoot nude.
a lot of what goes on here is not profesional at all soon you will see it.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well. . .when you started out, you paid the models to shoot with you right??

Nope. There was one I paid because I wanted to work with her, but the rest were all TFP.

Kitapanda wrote:

Better believe it. Tiny dogs are the angriest.

lol. Hurts like a bitch. Cuz Ninu's a dog. Get it? haha

I'm literally over here dying laughing at that one.  I'm sick and it hurts to laugh, but I'm laughing!!!