Jayne Jones wrote:
...by the time I get to NYC. . .I plan to be experienced, so unfortunately I don't plan doing much TFP/CD by then. 

Albie Bruno wrote:
Well then in that case, when you get to NYC, you can drop in on my exhibit at the MoMA

Phoenix E wrote:
heh....ah, i like you

Which one of us???  You have to pick!

Albie Bruno wrote:
Just a thought....
I know everyone puts up a thread like this now and then, but I haven't quite seen it put this way....

They are doing you a favor by posting the lists... they are most likely more of a hassle to work with than they are worth.

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Nope. There was one I paid because I wanted to work with her, but the rest were all TFP.

Exactly where I was going with that.  You wanted to work with her. . .you paid her.  If you as a photog are being sought out. . .you're the one that should be paid.  If the model is being sought out. . .she/he should be paid.  Regardless of experience.  That's all I'm saying.

Some photogs admittedly only work with inexperienced models and they PAY them.  So to have a price list may/may not be to their advantage.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Exactly where I was going with that.  You wanted to work with her. . .you paid her.  If you as a photog are being sought out. . .you're the one that should be paid.  If the model is being sought out. . .she/he should be paid.  Regardless of experience.  That's all I'm saying.

Some photogs admittedly only work with inexperienced models and they PAY them.  So to have a price list may/may not be to their advantage.

Ok, ONE out of a dozen. Think about it. It was not my first one, either. It was after I'd had other shoots under the belt. But I LIKED her look, and I had a fun exchange of messages before booking with her. I did not NEED her for my portfolio. I did not NEED her to get other work.

So your basic suggestion that beginning photographers NEED to pay models, both experienced AND unexperienced, to build a portfolio is inherently FALSE.

CristinaLex wrote:
i dont demand to be paid because i have not proven anything to the industry that i should...i am only doing tfp for now...i wouldnt want a photographer to pay me just to take pics.....thats ridiculous

In your personal opinion that’s ridiculous. Some of us do private stock jobs. We model for those who wan to hire someone to practice photography on. Or for someone who wants special photos no one else has. Or for the entertainment that they get from feeling cool for taking pictures of beautiful women. (There are some very very good photographers who admit to this last one.)

we each make our own desions in life one persons does not discount anothers

CristinaLex wrote:
...the only thing that i may have a demand for is that if the photographer is not in the same region i am in that they pay for my accomadations...and that they are aware that sometimes my man will tag along on long trips....but if they are in NY, PA, Detriot and such on the north east then i will help with accomadations but will not pay them in full...i dont demand to be paid because i have not proven anything to the industry that i should...i am only doing tfp for now...i wouldnt want a photographer to pay me just to take pics.....thats ridiculous

I don't understand how this is not a form of payment. 

The career path that you've chosen dictates that models pose for money. Likewise potographers get paid to take pictures.  Modeling requires money.  Taking photographs requires money.  So really. . .*rubbs chin* it's all a matter of big bank taking little bank.  Who wants to play???

Jayne Jones wrote:
HA!!!!!!!!

Question:  what model refused to work with you?  Just asking b/c you seem admittedly new to "photography" as opposed to having "10 years of graphic design" experience.  I find it curious that you also seem to be choosey about whom you pay.  What makes that any different from being choosey about whom you TFP/CD from a model's standpoint??  Just curious.

I never said I was choosy about whom I pay...if I approach a model with a request for a shoot, it's because I want to use them in my portfolio, and for that, I am always willing to pay. If I inquire about tfp, it is usually because the model states that she would like to utilize that to gain experience and some free photos (See, not all new models are unaware that photography is expensive and a tfp is an excellent way of getting great shots in their book with little outlay on their part). I only put up the thread because I found it humorous that some models appear to feel that their pretty face instantly entitles them to an elevated position in this industry, with no real experience at all let alone enough to warrant such. We all start somewhere, and I merely suggest that a little change in their opening page blurbs might be beneficial to jumpstarting their careers. I've gotten some great tfp's and in fact, continue to enjoy shooting with some awesome and humble models who appreciate the diversity new photography brings to their books.

Did I leave the impression of sour grapes? Nah....I love photography, and I stay busy with it, because I do love it. I love the models I've worked with because they've each brought a piece of themselves to the projects and have helped in their way to make me better. I look forward to continually getting better, and meeting and making more friends through photography because, that is what I do. I would still shoot tfp even if I achieve the heights of success in this Industry, only because I know how tough it is to get started in one's career. Until I feel satisfied with my portfolio, I'll still be paying models to pose for me, because I know what I need to be successful.

Some people don't know....

Mikel Featherston wrote:
But I LIKED her look, and I had a fun exchange of messages before booking with her. I did not NEED her for my portfolio. I did not NEED her to get other work.

So your basic suggestion that beginning photographers NEED to pay models, both experienced AND unexperienced, to build a portfolio is inherently FALSE.

But she had the look you wanted.  I doubt very highly her experience played a factor into that.  She had what you wanted. . .you had to pay to get it.

If a model that has no experience has a look that is desired. . .she has the choice to charge for that look.  Period.  Wheather or not she actually gets work will dictate if/not that was a "wise" choice for her to make.

I may have not stated what I meant by the whole "beginning photographers" thing clearly.  Allow me to attempt to clarify:
You were fortunate enough to find models happily available to pose for free pictures.  Some photographers aren't so lucky and in the name of creating a stellar port. . .may have had to pay models to obtain the "look" that they wanted to achieve.  That was my point.  You're paying for the look. . .not necessarily the experience.  So much has already been agreed upon.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Until I feel satisfied with my portfolio, I'll still be paying models to pose for me, because I know what I need to be successful.

Some people don't know....

I'm done.  See above post and add to bottom of this one.  I just love letting others assert my point for me.

Jayne Jones wrote:

But she had the look you wanted.  I doubt very highly her experience played a factor into that.  She had what you wanted. . .you had to pay to get it.

Wrong. Her experience was the ONLY reason I paid for her look. There are more than enough models out here in Southern California to get whatever look I want, many times over.

Jayne Jones wrote:

I'm done.

about time....

Jayne Jones wrote:
Don'tcha just love forums???  All the conflicting opinions eventually mesh and become one huge blog!

Actually, they are often the bane of my existence.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
Wrong. Her experience was the ONLY reason I paid for her look. There are more than enough models out here in Southern California to get whatever look I want, many times over.

That's all well and fine, and you have an awesome port now from what I can see.  However. . .all that doesn't change the fact that you still had to pay your dues (pun intended) . . .as will new models and some photogs alike.  You were new, she wouldn't work with you unless you paid her.  You said that yourself.  That proved my point.  Just because it's past tense doesn't make the point any less valid.

Nor does it discount the fact that she had what you wanted. . .she didn't want you. . .you wanted her look.  That cost you money.  That's a fact by your own admission.  That's unfortunately how it works.  Just like now. . .because you've paid your dues. . .us new models see something WE want in YOU. . .so we'll have to pay to get it.  I believe that's supply and demand, which is not necesarily connected to experience/non.

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Actually, they are often the bane of my existence.

c'mon now Mikeybabyboo!  Don't be that way.  We just love you!!

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Actually, they are often the bane of my existence.

c'mon now Mikeybabyboo!  Don't be that way.  We just love you!!

Jayne Jones wrote:

c'mon now Mikeybabyboo!  Don't be that way.  We just love you!!

Naw, it's more a matter than I stick my foot in it when I get going.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Just like now. . .because you've paid your dues. . .us new models see something WE want in YOU. . .so we'll have to pay to get it.  I believe that's supply and demand, which is not necesarily connected to experience/non.

I don't know that I am done paying my dues, and I am still not to the point where I am going to expext money from models. I am doin' this for fun. I've got a job, I don't need to ruin my hobby by making it a second one.

Jayne Jones wrote:
I don't understand how this is not a form of payment. 

The career path that you've chosen dictates that models pose for money. Likewise potographers get paid to take pictures.  Modeling requires money.  Taking photographs requires money.  So really. . .*rubbs chin* it's all a matter of big bank taking little bank.  Who wants to play???

no if you understand what i am saying i mean if a photographer pays me for some work it is going into my pocket for what ever i need...every model that shoots doesnt always have the money to travel to the other side of the USA to take photos...ig you have the money to pay for a trip to cali..congrats...but for me being a student and working at the same time..thats an exspense that i cannot handle...he isnt paying me directly...he is paying for my transportation...he is not making my bank account bigger...

Jayne Jones wrote:

c'mon now Mikeybabyboo!  Don't be that way.  We just love you!!

Oh, and Jayne dear... I love the spelling of your name, and you personally are NOT what the original poster was talking about in terms of laundry lists. Or at least I don't see that from reading your profile.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
Oh, and Jayne dear... I love the spelling of your name, and you personally are NOT what the original poster was talking about in terms of laundry lists. Or at least I don't see that from reading your profile.

Thank you booboo.  Shhhhh. . .it's an alias.

CristinaLex wrote:
no if you understand what i am saying i mean if a photographer pays me for some work it is going into my pocket for what ever i need...every model that shoots doesnt always have the money to travel to the other side of the USA to take photos...ig you have the money to pay for a trip to cali..congrats...but for me being a student and working at the same time..thats an exspense that i cannot handle...he isnt paying me directly...he is paying for my transportation...he is not making my bank account bigger...

Bottom line: it's payment.  In my opinion, it is just as presumptuous to demand payment for "travel/expenses" as it apparently is to demand payment for any other type of shoot. 

I'm personally not seeing the likelihood of getting "expenses" for a travel TFP/CD shoot.  Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  Would it not be easier to say "here's $___. . .do with it what you will."???  As opposed to "Here's $___ for travel expenses, but I'm not paying you for this shoot."  Em. . .you kinda are.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Bottom line: it's payment.  In my opinion, it is just as presumptuous to demand payment for "travel/expenses" as it apparently is to demand payment for any other type of shoot. 

I'm personally not seeing the likelihood of getting "expenses" for a travel TFP/CD shoot.  Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  Would it not be easier to say "here's $___. . .do with it what you will."???  As opposed to "Here's $___ for travel expenses, but I'm not paying you for this shoot."  Em. . .you kinda are.

Well, one difference between a true paid shoot and a travel-paid TFP/CD is that the model gets images when it is all over in the latter case, but not the former.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
Well, one difference between a true paid shoot and a travel-paid TFP/CD is that the model gets images when it is all over in the latter case, but not the former.

I get that part.  Thank goodness.  But would not the case typically be upon a travel shoot that it's a "paid" job in one way or another??  Even if you were only paid in the form of hotel/meals/Leisure Suit Larry's sofa and mac and cheese???

From a photog standpoint, does it make a whole lot of sense to pop for an inexperienced model's hotel room and meals (b/c clearly an experienced model would be paid for the shoot as well), be out say $500 or more and send her back from whence she came with a CD or prints???  I just don't see how that's economically sound.  Seems like she's getting the better end of the deal to me, so what happened to both parties bringing something to the table?

Tony Culture Photoz wrote:
Just to make it clear, I am NOT seeking any personal/intimate relations with ANY models. I am married. I can take a decline/refusal to work with me, or whatever. Life goes on, and is certainly NOT centered around what goes on here online.

So someone wanted to do the DO with you????  Who was it????  Dish!!!

Jayne Jones wrote:

So someone wanted to do the DO with you????  Who was it????  Dish!!!

No, wasn't that lucky. *lol* Just had to state that because people love to throw some BS wise ass retorts in these threads. I just wanted to answer that before someone did it. I have see it here quite often, where a good convo is in progress, then someone comes out of left field with some snyde remarks.

Jayne Jones wrote:

(b/c clearly an experienced model would be paid for the shoot as well)

Not always true. Some experienced models do it for the pictures, not the money. One way to do the travel expense thing is for it to be covered by multiple photographers in an area, in exchange for some time with the model.

Mikel Featherston wrote:
One way to do the travel expense thing is for it to be covered by multiple photographers in an area, in exchange for some time with the model.

Okay.  That I have seen.  Never understood why a photog would agree to do it though, b/c as best I understood it. . .all the conditions were set by the model (lighting, wardrobe, etc.)

Then again. . .a pic in a port is a pic in a port I guess.  I dunno.  And so the world turns.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Just a thought....
I know everyone puts up a thread like this now and then, but I haven't quite seen it put this way....

I've seen a couple of new and unproven models post some serious laundry lists of stipulations regarding what they won't do, demanding only paid shoots, saying they will always bring an escort, requests from prospective photographers on how to contact them, requirements photogs must apply to....yet all the while displaying cell phone images or not much better.
Wouldn't it be in their best interest in working with a few photographers, gaining tangible experience and a viable online portfolio before displaying a sense of unwarranted arrogance and primadonna syndrome that might cause some experienced and talented photogs to pass, in turn causing their portfolios to suffer?

hmmmm.......

O.K.  There are some good issues here, and the discussion is interesting so far.  I do however think that it's perhaps a little unfair to assume Miss Jones just doesn't get the conversation.  The points she brought up are actually stated here in you original statement after all, such as what a model will and won't do so I don't think it was unreasonable for her to respond as such.  THERE ARE SOME EXCELLENT POINTS ON BOTH SIDES HERE.   I think the crux of the issue is more in the part about only having blurry cell phone images rather than being new to model mayhem, and I think a lot of it is presentation as well.  People who are new are trying to figure out how best to present things and what I think is often an attempt to be organized is being percieved as attitude though of course not in every case.  I think lists about what a model is and isn't willing to do and how to contact them is an attempt to maximimize impact with minimal effort.  It is frustrating on both ends if you are a busy person and have to wade through 20 email exchanges before you figure out what the other person is looking for so I think it is often just an attempt to get an organized opening email from photographers who respond and is actually an attempt at being helpful.  HOWEVER, I completely agree that you have to have decent images and experience before you can demand to be paid well.  If you don't want to pay photographers to shoot your portfolio or pay a modeling agency to teach you to pose and promote you than YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO SOME TFP TO START.  You have to learn somehow.  I have been used in various posing seminars and personal projects of Master photographers since I was a little girl because of being from a photographic family, and I ALWAYS saw it as an honor.  If someone is a good photographer and you can learn from them by all means consider trade.  It completely depends on the individual situation; some people should pay you, some you should pay, and some you should do tfp.  A list of things to consider is not necesarily a bad idea, but it should not be applied or taken as a blanket policies.  There are always exceptions to everything in life (and modeling.)

Stormey wrote:
THERE ARE SOME EXCELLENT POINTS ON BOTH SIDES HERE.   I think the crux of the issue is more in the part about only having blurry cell phone images rather than being new to model mayhem, and I think a lot of it is presentation as well.  People who are new are trying to figure out how best to present things and what I think is often an attempt to be organized is being percieved as attitude though of course not in every case.  . . .You have to learn somehow.  . . .It completely depends on the individual situation; some people should pay you, some you should pay, and some you should do tfp.  A list of things to consider is not necesarily a bad idea, but it should not be applied or taken as a blanket policies.  There are always exceptions to everything in life (and modeling.)

Yeah!  What she said.

Jayne Jones wrote:

Thank you booboo.  Shhhhh. . .it's an alias.

Say in ain't so! I'm crushed....

Albie Bruno wrote:
Hmmm...
I wonder if it is all ego driven when a model posts those lists of stips and demands.....or if it's just what she sees other models post that do get regular work....

I enjoy shooting new models as well, but when I was beginning to develop my portfolio, I realized it was in my best interest to find more experienced models and draw from their experience in order to gain stronger images. It went without a thought that I'd have to pay in order to get a strong portfolio off the top.

Same here.

Albie Bruno wrote:
1) Why are some new models so infused with the notion that they MUST be paid in return for developing their own portfolios?

2) If  a new model insists on being paid in exchange for posing for My portfolio, am I obliged to give them an image from the shoot?

Regarding the second question, I generally offer images to the models I shoot whether it's a paid shoot or not ....the point is that I had to pay my dues at first...shouldn't we all?

#1 - Good question. I think it's ego driven, along with seeing someone they feel they look better than who's making money modeling.

#2 - If you pay a model, you aren't obligated to give them anything. They've already been compensated by you with your money. By giving them images, it might as well be considered a TFP shoot.

Yes, we should all pay our dues. How long we pay our dues depends on your time, as well as money for funding your projects freely.

Mikel Featherston wrote:

Say in ain't so! I'm crushed....

Oh but it is.  Real name: I'm not telling!

Albie Bruno wrote:
1) Why are some new models so infused with the notion that they MUST be paid in return for developing their own portfolios?

2) If  a new model insists on being paid in exchange for posing for My portfolio, am I obliged to give them an image from the shoot?

1)  They're delusional and watch too much reality t.v.
2) More importantly, if I pay a new model, do i get a "happy ending"?

Jayne Jones wrote:
Bottom line: it's payment.  In my opinion, it is just as presumptuous to demand payment for "travel/expenses" as it apparently is to demand payment for any other type of shoot. 

I'm personally not seeing the likelihood of getting "expenses" for a travel TFP/CD shoot.  Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  Would it not be easier to say "here's $___. . .do with it what you will."???  As opposed to "Here's $___ for travel expenses, but I'm not paying you for this shoot."  Em. . .you kinda are.

whe you start gettin and more writes from photographers writing to you for tfps in other states away from where you are let me know..untill then...i dont consider it a payment to help me get there if they wanna shoot with me...if they pay for me to get there i can save my money for n e thing else i might need when iarrive, food, fun etc...but if i waste all my money getting there i cant stay the next day if i wanted to shoot again or do anything else...soo i am not getting paid to come out there...they are not paying me for my work...and most photographers that i have been talking to tht wanna work with me know the situations with most models...and some dont mind paying to get a model out there tht is worth it...let me know when you a lil more experience

just dont try to twist my view into an argument or something other wise

Iona Lynn wrote:
Or for the entertainment that they get from feeling cool for taking pictures of beautiful women. (There are some very very good photographers who admit to this last one.)

I don't know if I'm in the "very very good" category, but it IS cool. After shooting sports, weddings, and marching bands all the time, I get the most comments from the models I've shot (at least from the guys), and they are a lot of fun to shoot! LOL