Addie Juniper wrote:
Anyway, it is my personal decision to take escorts with me. I still believe that the photographer shouldn't be bothered by it and should want the model to feel as comfortable as possible.

It is the dichotomy of these two sentences that is getting you in trouble...and the double standard you are setting up with that dichotomy.

Just as it is your personal decision to take escorts, it is many a photographer's personal decision not to trust or like escorts...and unfortunately for you...the photographer is the boss.  So, unless you want to shell out the dough to hire the photographer for pay, at which point you become the boss, deal with it or don't model for those photographers.

James Jackson wrote:

It is the dichotomy of these two sentences that is getting you in trouble...and the double standard you are setting up with that dichotomy.

Just as it is your personal decision to take escorts, it is many a photographer's personal decision not to trust or like escorts...and unfortunately for you...the photographer is the boss.  So, unless you want to shell out the dough to hire the photographer for pay, at which point you become the boss, deal with it or don't model for those photographers.

I don't agree that the photographer is necessarily boss.  Haha. In TFP, nobody is boss. It is a mutual agreement. Just like the photographer can find another model, I can find another photographer. But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss. And yes, I just won't model for those photographers. And believe me, there are plenty who are okay with it.

Sysamsbe wrote:
I actually LOVE MM because of how honest everyone is on here. I cant stand for someone to sugar coat anything to me. If I looke lik sh*t in a picture I would love for someone to tell me that so I can fix what ever I need to. I didnt read the post that you wrote yesterday so I dont know the story.

What was the name of your thread that you posted?

You don't wanna know. I'm actually quite proud of it, in a way. It received the most response out of any post in quite awhile. Yes, I appreciate honesty, as well. Being in the south where everything IS sugar-coated, I am all about being open and honest. But being mean and ignorant is quite another thing.

Gary Davis wrote:
What'd I tell ya?  World War III, cyber version...

Yeah, I'm realizing that.

Envy wrote:
Maybe you will be a little wiser about handing your password over to your boyfriend next time to defend your views. You are a grown girl, stick up for yourself.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one said you were "ugly" , they were refering to the lauguage in which you were using and directing it towards other members. Completely immature on your part.

Your best bet is to use the search function in the future. This topic of escorts has been covered more times than most care to remember.

I was just sitting here and he took the computer. I didn't think he was going to seem so unprofessional. I didn't need him to defend my views, he took it upon himself to do so. And as far as "sticking up" goes, we are in the kind of beautiful relationship that allows us to enhances eachother's lives and qualities. It's wonderful. We stick up FOR eachother against other people, not against EACHOTHER. Does that makes sense? And I do believe there where a couple of photographers that referred to an "OP". What's that? And I'm not immature, I'm HONEST. Isn't that what everybody else is being?

Envy wrote:
Maybe you will be a little wiser about handing your password over to your boyfriend next time to defend your views. You are a grown girl, stick up for yourself.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one said you were "ugly" , they were refering to the lauguage in which you were using and directing it towards other members. Completely immature on your part.

Your best bet is to use the search function in the future. This topic of escorts has been covered more times than most care to remember.

And I have searched the forums, smartass. I haven't seen anything like that in awhile.

Addie Juniper wrote:
I don't agree that the photographer is necessarily boss.  Haha. In TFP, nobody is boss. It is a mutual agreement. Just like the photographer can find another model, I can find another photographer. But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss. And yes, I just won't model for those photographers. And believe me, there are plenty who are okay with it.

Any project is mutual agreement, that has nothing to do with pay or who the boss is.  The things you both have to decide before shooting are if it's a collaboration (i.e. equal sharing of ideas) or if one or the other of you is the "boss", and what the compensation is, i.e. model paying photographer, photographer paying model, or both getting images and calling it even.  One has nothing to do with the other and assuming that the photographer isn't the boss because it's TFP is wrong.  It's quite common for a model to shoot TFP with a photographer because she wants HIS vision, and many photographers won't shoot TFP unless they are the boss.  These are issues you should make clear to anyone before you work with them if you have a strong opinion on how you want the shoot to work.

James Jackson wrote:

It is the dichotomy of these two sentences that is getting you in trouble...and the double standard you are setting up with that dichotomy.

Just as it is your personal decision to take escorts, it is many a photographer's personal decision not to trust or like escorts...and unfortunately for you...the photographer is the boss.  So, unless you want to shell out the dough to hire the photographer for pay, at which point you become the boss, deal with it or don't model for those photographers.

No, there is no "boss" in my mind.  Actually I have shot for models who have paid me to produce content for their websites ... so they are the boss.  My own thoughts on this is that whom ever is paying the bills, buying the product is the "boss" because without them we have no work.

Sysamsbe wrote:
I actually LOVE MM because of how honest everyone is on here. I cant stand for someone to sugar coat anything to me. If I looke lik sh*t in a picture I would love for someone to tell me that so I can fix what ever I need to. I didnt read the post that you wrote yesterday so I dont know the story.

What was the name of your thread that you posted?

This is a great place!  Sugar coated or not, let's not have any negative or hatred on here ... I'm with you .. I LOVE this place!  Let's keep it real and positive!

Addie Juniper wrote:
I don't agree that the photographer is necessarily boss.  Haha. In TFP, nobody is boss. It is a mutual agreement. Just like the photographer can find another model, I can find another photographer. But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss. And yes, I just won't model for those photographers. And believe me, there are plenty who are okay with it.

Don't laugh little girl...this is very not funny at this point.

The photographer is the boss...in a TFP he is paying you with photographs.  If he was not the boss, he would be getting money.

As to the other part of your statement.... YOU are the one who started a thread saying: "I'm sick of having to turn down shoot offers due to some photographers not allowing me to bring someone."  Your question in the title was answered time and again..."Why do photographers insist on no escort?" because of the exact reasons you call "very annoying claims."

You asked the question...you got the answer...and you are the one who started the conversation...if you don't like where it led you, perhaps it's not a problem of all the big mean bad photographers are picking on me perhaps instead it's a PEBCAK problem...

Gary Davis wrote:
What'd I tell ya?  World War III, cyber version...

Cyber Wars?  lol  sounds like an George Lucus production!   Oh oh ... that was Star Wars!   

Gary Davis wrote:

Any project is mutual agreement, that has nothing to do with pay or who the boss is.  The things you both have to decide before shooting are if it's a collaboration (i.e. equal sharing of ideas) or if one or the other of you is the "boss", and what the compensation is, i.e. model paying photographer, photographer paying model, or both getting images and calling it even.  One has nothing to do with the other and assuming that the photographer isn't the boss because it's TFP is wrong.  It's quite common for a model to shoot TFP with a photographer because she wants HIS vision, and many photographers won't shoot TFP unless they are the boss.  These are issues you should make clear to anyone before you work with them if you have a strong opinion on how you want the shoot to work.

You are quite right about nobody being boss. But then you go on to contradict yourself and say that the photographer is boss because it's his "vision". Well, newsflash, models have a vision, too. I'm sure most models, including myself, have piles and piles of TFP offers in their inboxes. It is most definitely a mutual agreement. Everyone has a "vision". I don't like photographers who are full of it.

Addie Juniper wrote:

I don't agree that the photographer is necessarily boss.  Haha. In TFP, nobody is boss. It is a mutual agreement. Just like the photographer can find another model, I can find another photographer. But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss. And yes, I just won't model for those photographers. And believe me, there are plenty who are okay with it.

We can go farther and get more done when we work as a team!  I agree with you!

Patrick Walberg wrote:

No, there is no "boss" in my mind.  Actually I have shot for models who have paid me to produce content for their websites ... so they are the boss.  My own thoughts on this is that whom ever is paying the bills, buying the product is the "boss" because without them we have no work.

Right on.

Addie Juniper wrote:
I was just sitting here and he took the computer. I didn't think he was going to seem so unprofessional. I didn't need him to defend my views, he took it upon himself to do so. And as far as "sticking up" goes, we are in the kind of beautiful relationship that allows us to enhances eachother's lives and qualities. It's wonderful. We stick up FOR eachother against other people, not against EACHOTHER. Does that makes sense? And I do believe there where a couple of photographers that referred to an "OP". What's that? And I'm not immature, I'm HONEST. Isn't that what everybody else is being?

Kudos to your relationship, however the point is you started the thread. If you can't handle honest opinions members are offering it's in your best interest not to start a topic. Your boyfriend/escort posting on your behalf appears rather childish.

Can't bring an escort with you? Refuse to work with someone without him? Don't shoot. Simple as that.

James Jackson wrote:

Don't laugh little girl...this is very not funny at this point.

The photographer is the boss...in a TFP he is paying you with photographs.  If he was not the boss, he would be getting money.

As to the other part of your statement.... YOU are the one who started a thread saying: "I'm sick of having to turn down shoot offers due to some photographers not allowing me to bring someone."  Your question in the title was answered time and again..."Why do photographers insist on no escort?" because of the exact reasons you call "very annoying claims."

You asked the question...you got the answer...and you are the one who started the conversation...if you don't like where it led you, perhaps it's not a problem of all the big mean bad photographers are picking on me perhaps instead it's a PEBCAK problem...

Calm down, man! You've got some real spite going on. There is no need to patronize me and call me "little girl". What you fail to realize is that the model is paying YOU with photographs, as well. That is what a TFP is. A trade. The photographer is not the boss in that situation. Both parties are! What's a PEBCAK?

Krista wrote:
I must notice that when the first thread you posted got less inflamed...you started another one. Are you certain that you aren't interested stirring up contraversy?

If you were 'over and out' of the the thread (your final post on the escort thread), why are you coming back trying to rehash the same story?

No, I just wanted to state, professionally, how I felt about the whole thing. I've been responding to everyone in a professional manner due to the fact that I failed to do so in the last conversation.

Addie Juniper wrote:
You are quite right about nobody being boss. But then you go on to contradict yourself and say that the photographer is boss because it's his "vision". Well, newsflash, models have a vision, too. I'm sure most models, including myself, have piles and piles of TFP offers in their inboxes. It is most definitely a mutual agreement. Everyone has a "vision". I don't like photographers who are full of it.

I didn't contradict myself at all.  I didn't say that nobody IS the boss, and I didn't say that the photographer IS the boss.  I said IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!  You're assuming there is only one correct answer, that there is no boss period, and that is just not the case.  Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't.  It depends on who you are working with and what everyone involved agrees to.

I'm not saying things can't work the way you want, but you can't ASSUME that they do.  Different people do things differently.

James Jackson wrote:
Don't laugh little girl...this is very not funny at this point.

The photographer is the boss...in a TFP he is paying you with photographs.  If he was not the boss, he would be getting money.

As to the other part of your statement.... YOU are the one who started a thread saying: "I'm sick of having to turn down shoot offers due to some photographers not allowing me to bring someone."  Your question in the title was answered time and again..."Why do photographers insist on no escort?" because of the exact reasons you call "very annoying claims."

You asked the question...you got the answer...and you are the one who started the conversation...if you don't like where it led you, perhaps it's not a problem of all the big mean bad photographers are picking on me perhaps instead it's a PEBCAK problem...

Why are you calling her a "little girl?"  That sounds like an immature put down on your part.  Sorry you must put people down to make your point, but I disagree with you about how a "TFP" actually works.  If the photographer is making money from the pictures, then the he/she needs to pay the model and that is not TFP!  If the model is running a HOT 'net site, and she is in control of the content, she is smart and pays the photographer!    I like those gigs!  But when it comes to TFP, it's a mutual thing.  I'm sorry you are "bossy" Mr. boss!  But women are my boss, I love them and they love me back by posing the best way they can!  LOL

I love other photographers as friends, I love models, I love escorts, I love everyone!  And NO! I'm not high or drunk, I've been dead before and I'm just thankful to be alive and well enough to do what I want with the short life I may have left.  You might live longer if you can keep from stressing out over "escorts" and calling intelligent young women who are decent writers and models "little girls!"

Not to put a downer on things but you are going to die someday.  So will I.  Think about how you'd like people to remember you.   As a photographer ... you can leave a legacy with the images you shoot and the lives you touch.  I know how I want people to remember me, and I'm living that way now!

Addie Juniper wrote:
It's not that I am a child and need a "babysitter" like some of you so cleverly posted , it's that there are dangerous situations out there. A studio is different. Fashion shoots are different. But going to someone's house or hotel room and taking off your clothes for them can potentially lead to a bad situation and an escort makes me more comfortable.

So lets say a photographer carries $10,000 worth of equipment into a hotel room with a model and her "escort". It's just a simple for the photographer to get whacked over the head by the escort and robbed, while he's paying attention to the model. Trust runs two ways and yours is pretty one directional.

Shawn

Envy wrote:

Kudos to your relationship, however the point is you started the thread. If you can't handle honest opinions members are offering it's in your best interest not to start a topic. Your boyfriend/escort posting on your behalf appears rather childish.

Can't bring an escort with you? Refuse to work with someone without him? Don't shoot. Simple as that.

I can handle honesty, I'm just not accustomed to such blatant rudeness. I will know what to expect now. I didn't think it was childish for him to post, he was just stating his opinion. He is a photographer and will actually have a profile on here soon.  And yeah, I don't have any trouble finding people who are okay with him being there, it's just a shame about the ones who have a problem with it.

Gary Davis wrote:

I didn't contradict myself at all.  I didn't say that nobody IS the boss, and I didn't say that the photographer IS the boss.  I said IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION!  You're assuming there is only one correct answer, that there is no boss period, and that is just not the case.  Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't.  It depends on who you are working with and what everyone involved agrees to.

I'm not saying things can't work the way you want, but you can't ASSUME that they do.  Different people do things differently.

Quite true. I'm sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

But women are my boss, I love them and they love me back by posing the best way they can!  LOL

I think Im in Love with Patrick! : )

Addie Juniper wrote:
I don't agree that the photographer is necessarily boss.  Haha. In TFP, nobody is boss. It is a mutual agreement. Just like the photographer can find another model, I can find another photographer. But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss. And yes, I just won't model for those photographers. And believe me, there are plenty who are okay with it.

This right here makes me question why the original thread was started in the first place.

Fact: you won't shoot nudes for free according to your profile. The photographer you said would not allow escorts is doing a book on exotic nudes. Thus making this a paid assignment. Which in turn makes him the boss.

"But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss."

His rule, no escorts.
Your rule no escort, no modeling.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Why does there need to be a thread on this topic if you claim to adhere to the photographers rules and will find someone else to shoot with?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Why are you calling her a "little girl?"  That sounds like an immature put down on your part.  Sorry you must put people down to make your point, but I disagree with you about how a "TFP" actually works.  If the photographer is making money from the pictures, then the he/she needs to pay the model and that is not TFP!  If the model is running a HOT 'net site, and she is in control of the content, she is smart and pays the photographer!    I like those gigs!  But when it comes to TFP, it's a mutual thing.  I'm sorry you are "bossy" Mr. boss!  But women are my boss, I love them and they love me back by posing the best way they can!  LOL

I love other photographers as friends, I love models, I love escorts, I love everyone!  And NO! I'm not high or drunk, I've been dead before and I'm just thankful to be alive and well enough to do what I want with the short life I may have left.  You might live longer if you can keep from stressing out over "escorts" and calling intelligent young women who are decent writers and models "little girls!"

Not to put a downer on things but you are going to die someday.  So will I.  Think about how you'd like people to remember you.   As a photographer ... you can leave a legacy with the images you shoot and the lives you touch.  I know how I want people to remember me, and I'm living that way now!

Thanks for the love and restoring my faith in photographers. You're awesome.

Addie Juniper wrote:
Calm down, man! You've got some real spite going on. There is no need to patronize me and call me "little girl". What you fail to realize is that the model is paying YOU with photographs, as well. That is what a TFP is. A trade. The photographer is not the boss in that situation. Both parties are! What's a PEBCAK?

No spite...spite would require me to be angry or bitter...I am neither...I have many the great working relationship with models, and in general love models.  I however have not had the displeasure of dealing in person with someone like you...thankfully.

You asked a question...you received answers from those that are both more experienced and more professional than you, and yet you keep on arguing in illogical directions that fail completely to even acknowledge the kind advice given to you by all involved.  That is why I patronize you.  You are acting every bit the part of a little girl...a small little child who when presented with two options that she doesn't like, insists that the whole world rotate in reverse on its axis and that there be changes made to the way a well established industry works.

A TFP is a bastardized test shoot.  It is not a trade.  It is Time For Prints...your time...in return as payment you receive prints.  The photographer is the boss.  Don't argue with me, it's pointless because you are just plain wrong.

Look up PEBCAK...it's an acronym

Shawn Kuck wrote:

So lets say a photographer carries $10,000 worth of equipment into a hotel room with a model and her "escort". It's just a simple for the photographer to get whacked over the head by the escort and robbed, while he's paying attention to the model. Trust runs two ways and yours is pretty one directional.

Shawn

Well, yes, it is a two-way street. I agree with that. So that's why both should come to an agreement. But escorts shouldn't get such a bad rep. They're not all psychopathic kleptomaniacs.

Sysamsbe wrote:

I think Im in Love with Patrick! : )

Are you on MySpace?    Check out my blog ... Bellaimages we should be "friends!"

Envy wrote:

This right here makes me question why the original thread was started in the first place.

Fact: you won't shoot nudes for free according to your profile. The photographer you said would not allow escorts is doing a book on exotic nudes. Thus making this a paid assignment. Which in turn makes him the boss.

"But for pay, you are right; whoever is paying is boss."

His rule, no escorts.
Your rule no escort, no modeling.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Why does there need to be a thread on this topic if you claim to adhere to the photographers rules and will find someone else to shoot with?

Well, actually, he would not be paying me. He wanted to do a future profit-share thing. So who is "boss" there? Kinda blurs the line...

Shawn Kuck wrote:

So lets say a photographer carries $10,000 worth of equipment into a hotel room with a model Shawn

10,000$ you say? Screw the escort...wanna tfp with me? Do you have Canon or NIkon? Can you give me some specs on the lighting?

Addie Juniper wrote:
My boyfriend grabbed the laptop and wanted to contribute to the thread. I said it wasn't a good idea, but he did it anyway.

Addie, I fully believe you have the right to do what you think is necessary as a model for your own safety.   It's also very nice to hear that that you have a close relationship with your boyfriend.

But the line I'm quoting above from the start of this thread pretty much explains why so many of us have the policies we do regarding escorts.  Especially the second sentence, which tells most of us he's a potential liability on a shoot.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Are you on MySpace?    Check out my blog ... Bellaimages we should be "friends!"

Just sent you a friend request : )

Addie Juniper wrote:

Well, yes, it is a two-way street. I agree with that. So that's why both should come to an agreement. But escorts shouldn't get such a bad rep. They're not all psychopathic kleptomaniacs.

No but "most" boyfriend escorts are jealous freaks, who don't trust their girlfriends to leave their sight for more than ten minutes at a time. My rule is simple no boyfriends and no brothers. Anyone else you want to bring gets put to work.

Shawn

Lapis wrote:

10,000$ you say? Screw the escort...wanna tfp with me? Do you have Canon or NIkon? Can you give me some specs on the lighting?

Hmm... I often carry more than that to a photo session.

   Avoid Lapis...

Addie Juniper wrote:
Well, actually, he would not be paying me. He wanted to do a future profit-share thing. So who is "boss" there? Kinda blurs the line...

To me it would appear he's the boss. He is the one shooting the images plus doing the footwork to get the book published. Check references with the girl from the first book to get a clear view of his work ethics.