Posted by theda: 
See, now that's a matter of opinion. I would say the Piano was essentially pornographic in parts, although not fully a porn film and it did lack the gential close-ups we've become accustomed to. 

well I suppose it is, but I think the prevailing opinion amongst educated film aficionados is that pornography is not even about sex, let alone being about anything else, it just is sex, shown for the sole purpose of turning people on and getting people off. That’s fine, but don’t pretend it’s something else. On the other hand a film can have sex, even graphic sex, or be about sex,  but have a purpose or a range of purposes in addition, or above and beyond simply intending to arouse the audience. A film that has social, intellectual or artistic meaning and intent and is able to convey that, is not pornography. Just the intent alone tells much of the story, any art film that has graphic sex and is distributed in theaters or tries to get distributed in legitimate theaters is pretty much not porn by definition. They are attempting to reach a legitimate audience and hope to have something to say to them, while knowing full well that they’re almost guaranteed to be a commercial failure or no better than a very limited success financially. The only true aim of porn is to make money, period. So they release to a home audience that will feel free to jack off or have sex while watching the movie which they wouldn’t do in a legitimate theater.

The Piano was not there to titillate you, it was meant to explore & observe the psyche and issues of desire, control, power, human interaction, the will to live, etc. (although I didn’t think it was as deep or good as many do) Joey would have been bored out of his mind and wouldn’t have understood a minute of it, that’s a pretty good indicator that it wasn’t porn!

The Brown Bunny, a graphic and un-simulated BJ, but not at all porn. Y tu mamá también, lots of sex, swinging sausage, not porn. Catherine Breillat’s Romance, graphic sex, using a male porn star & his erection in fact, but not porn. The piano Teacher, all kinds of sex, S&M, porn watching etc. but not porn itself.

I would also say that a film winning the oscar for best picture despite the fact that it was about extremely taboo sexual matters (to the point that the MPAA felt the need to give it that X rating) is also quite relevant.

This was around the time they invented the rating system, specifically to prevent censorship, instead of censorship they thought they could just advise people of the nature of the content with the ratings. The X rating was in no way invented for pornography, but simply for adult content and themes. The X rating & the fact that the X rating made a film off limits to minors was subverted, bastardized and exploited by the porn industry as an enticing marketing gimmick. It wasn’t designed to mean porn, but they turned it into that for their own purposes. There was very little shown in Midnight Cowboy, the simply fact that male and homosexual prostitution was part of the subject matter garnered it the X rating. But it was about as far removed from pornography as it’s possible to be. It was changed to an R rating the next year.

Caligula is another example of of a largely pornographic film that a number of people consider well-made on multiple levels. Andrew Blake's films are also beautifully made and pretty undeniably pornographic. There are still pornographic films being made that have plots and dialogue and the acting of that type is generally on par with most of the student films I've seen, which is of course, pretty bad.

Caligula had high production values, some real actors & dressed itself up as being more than porn, but it was just some weird sort of pseudo-god knows what claptrap. It can’t be put in any category with MC, or Last Tango or any other serious film. I have no idea who Andrew Blake is.

I also completely disagree that porn actors do not have acting talents. Few if any of them display a *range* of acting ability, but to convince an audience that you're actually in a midst of a genuine and enjoyable sex act under those conditions requires *acting* talent. The physical prowess required by the actors in porn is another skill set altogether and I wasn't the one bringing up the more detailed tricks one must master for that. That's a horse of a different color and not what I personally was referring to when I said porno requires talent.

If you don’t have a range of talent or any other talent than making the actual sex you’re having seem more enjoyable than it might really be that hardly qualifies you of having any real acting talent worth mentioning. From what I’ve seen it’s pretty hit and miss for them to even go that far. Real acting talent is so much deeper and more complex than faking sex in an almost credible way, that’s just a stupid human trick and an insult to the true art of acting to mention it in the same breath. It’s a fucking joke in fact, so to speak.

Alexandra said porn required no talent and anyone could have sex on film. She did not say "acting" talent. She completely dismissed the very possibility that pornography was a difficult discipline that requires a multitude of skills and talents in order to be successful (and yeah, there is ACTING involved).

Well, there is acting involved in soap operas too, but it’s garbage. Who gives a goddamn if it’s a difficult “discipline” at times?  Why are you unable to distinguish between good acting and garbage? Why are you unable to grasp the concept of hyperbole? If someone says a basketball player “can’t play” or he’s “got no game” or “he ain’t no player” they don’t literally mean the person cannot, isn’t or doesn’t play the game of basketball, they just mean “he ain’t shit” or isn’t all that. Being a fucking porn actor doesn’t take being Meryl Streep, and fucking convincingly doesn’t mean you can act your way out of a paper bag or acquit yourself well in a role needing real acting in a quality film, it just doesn’t and you damn well know it doesn’t. You’re just nit picking with her because you don’t like her even though you know what she’s saying and you know she’s right.

I don't know why you assumed that she meant acting talent only and I further don't understand why you would think the rest of us would draw that conclusion. We foolishly took what Alexandra said to be what she meant.

Because that’s what she’s been saying repeatedly, it’s what she’s getting at, especially in context. Look at Reese’s questions;

Posted by Reese: 
I am curious - I don't know much about the porn industry...  but I noticed on other websites (just one) it is listed as "Adult Entertainment," and many refer to the stars or performers if one will, as "models..."  Are Porn Stars / Actresses models per say?  I am sure that they do / can model - but are they "models?" I don't know... I have never dealt with that part of the industry (is it part of the industry?)

Then I am curious, when they are "acting"  are they really acting?  Because I don't see how they are "acting" like they are having sex. They are indeed having sex...  I know, it's a dumb as heck question -but I am just curious.

I am in no way casting judgement on anyone in the industry - but I am curious as to how exactly one categorizes those who partake in that particular field.

Now look at Alexandra’s statements;

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 

Posted by Cicada: 
models.....probably isnt the right word to use...

i think the word most often used is 'talent'....though...that's also a misnomer.

I'm not going to judge anyone who does porn but it really takes no talent to be having sex in front of a camera. Anyone can do that.

When a porn can make me cry and make me feel all fuzzy inside that is when I can actually consider it entertainment, until then, it's just going to be people doing the nasty on film.

DJ obtusely replied that porn isn’t meant to make you feel those particular things, failing to acknowledge the point that whether it makes you feel those particular things or not, a “real” film attempts to make you think or feel about something or in some way as opposed being about nothing other than getting off.

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 
Okay when was a porn ever nominated for an Oscar? And BTW Wes Craven is a horror director.

Obviously she’s still trying to make general commentary on the nature and quality of porn, but the both of you had to make it literal, enough of a sin, but then to have the unmitigated gall to tell her she has the facts wrong because you use Midnight Cowboy as an example of porn renders the both of you ridiculous, defeated and playing stupid games, either that or being truly stupid. Pick one.

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 

Posted by theda: 
1968. Midnight Cowboy. Not only was it nominated, it won. 

That's because it had REAL actors and it didn't deal 100% with sex. Of course due to the subject matter at the time the MPAA had to slap an X rating on it.

Again, she’s making value judgments on acting talent, she’s spelling it out for you, listen to the words themselves and also put it in the overall context. So there is no assuming on my part, the questions were about acting talent and she’s talking about acting talent. Stop trying to play dumb.

Posted by Aaron_H: 
well I suppose it is, but I think the prevailing opinion amongst educated film aficionados is that pornography is not even about sex, let alone being about anything else, it just is sex, shown for the sole purpose of turning people on and getting people off. That’s fine, but don’t pretend it’s something else. 

Porn isn't about sex? Hmmm then that's what I've been doing wrong all this time then. Educated film Afficianados eh? And ummmmm it isn't the people making the porn who try and pretend it's something else. It's the educated film aficianados who are doing that.

Posted by Aaron_H:
On the other hand a film can have sex, even graphic sex, or be about sex,  but have a purpose or a range of purposes in addition, or above and beyond simply intending to arouse the audience. A film that has social, intellectual or artistic meaning and intent and is able to convey that, is not pornography. Just the intent alone tells much of the story, any art film that has graphic sex and is distributed in theaters or tries to get distributed in legitimate theaters is pretty much not porn by definition. They are attempting to reach a legitimate audience and hope to have something to say to them, while knowing full well that they’re almost guaranteed to be a commercial failure or no better than a very limited success financially. 

Ok and a slice of a multibillion dollar audience isn't legitimate. I'll remember that when the IRS comes knocking at my door for their cut of my money for my reaching a non legitimate audience. But mr. IRS guy, it isn't a legitimate audience that I'm reaching so this doesn't really qualify as legitimate money.

And I don't know but I think my business professors would say going broke to make a statement is just plain stupid. Poor people make statements all the time and no one listens. Rich people fart and it's on the cover of magazines.

The intent of Porn is to show people having more fun than you! And it does create emotional responses when most men realize that what they are watching will probably never happen to them. Depression I think is still an emotion. But hey you still get to get off.

Posted by Aaron_H:
The only true aim of porn is to make money, period. So they release to a home audience that will feel free to jack off or have sex while watching the movie which they wouldn’t do in a legitimate theater.

Hmmmmm and making money in Business is bad WHY? We don't delude ourselves with this bull about lets make a statement. Every porn movie ever released makes a statement. And that statement is Pay us for not giving a damn about your social stigmas and crap you attach to sex. Not to mention that porn can be very educational. I never knew that a girl could take two in the backdoor at once. Thank you Taylor Rain and Brandi Lyons for my education.

And porn actually started being shown in theaters, before there were camcorders. And the porn industry was the first to use VHS and Beta for mainstream releases. In fact Hollywierd had to catch up to the adult industry in use of technology.

Jackin or Jillin off in public is still illegal. Ask Pee Wee Herman, and George Michaels.

Posted by Aaron_H:
This was around the time they invented the rating system, specifically to prevent censorship, instead of censorship they thought they could just advise people of the nature of the content with the ratings. The X rating was in no way invented for pornography, but simply for adult content and themes. The X rating & the fact that the X rating made a film off limits to minors was subverted, bastardized and exploited by the porn industry as an enticing marketing gimmick. It wasn’t designed to mean porn, but they turned it into that for their own purposes.

So then wouldn't that mean then that an X or XXX rating would be more than just an enticing marketing gimmick? But in fact a way of alerting the general public as to what is contained in the box?

Posted by Aaron_H:
Caligula had high production values, some real actors & dressed itself up as being more than porn, but it was just some weird sort of pseudo-god knows what claptrap. It can’t be put in any category with MC, or Last Tango or any other serious film. I have no idea who Andrew Blake is.

Caligula, the biggest and most expensive porno ever filmed. Covers pretty much every fetish and sex act under the sun. Find out who Andrew Blake and Michael Ninn and the others are before making blanket statements. But so high production value makes it a legitimate film. OK well then Andy Blake, Michael Ninn and Scotty JX are making legitimate movies. http://www.actiongirls.com ROCKS!

Posted by Aaron_H:
If you don’t have a range of talent or any other talent than making the actual sex you’re having seem more enjoyable than it might really be that hardly qualifies you of having any real acting talent worth mentioning.

When was the last time you tried it? And trust me a lot of these people have plenty of other talents. I have seen many large budget features with actors who couldn't act their way out of a wet paper napkin. Ala Kevin Costner. Love the guy but c'mon he's the SAME character in every movie. Except the Big Chill where he played a dead body. But I digress.

Posted by Aaron_H:
Well, there is acting involved in soap operas too, but it’s garbage. Who gives a goddamn if it’s a difficult “discipline” at times?  Why are you unable to distinguish between good acting and garbage?

Well we werent talking about good acting and bad acting now were we? Soap Opera acting is about on par with Porn acting. But funny how many people have crossed over. Demi Moore for one.

Posted by Aaron_H:
Because that’s what she’s been saying repeatedly, it’s what she’s getting at, especially in context. Look at Reese’s questions;

Posted by Reese: 
I am curious - I don't know much about the porn industry...  Are Porn Stars / Actresses models per say?

Then I am curious, when they are "acting"  are they really acting?  Because I don't see how they are "acting" like they are having sex. They are indeed having sex...  I know, it's a dumb as heck question -but I am just curious.

The answer is still the same. YES they are still Models and Actors. Good or bad ones is irrelevant. They're still getting the job done.

Posted by Aaron_H:
DJ obtusely replied that porn isn’t meant to make you feel those particular things, failing to acknowledge the point that whether it makes you feel those particular things or not, a “real” film attempts to make you think or feel about something or in some way as opposed being about nothing other than getting off.

Sort of like mainstream modeling. Sell sex but don't look like you're selling sex. At least porn is honest. Sell sex and actually LOOK like you're selling sex. That is what porn is about, getting off. And we do accomplish that goal very well.

Posted by Aaron_H:
Obviously she’s still trying to make general commentary on the nature and quality of porn, but the both of you had to make it literal, enough of a sin, but then to have the unmitigated gall to tell her she has the facts wrong because you use Midnight Cowboy as an example of porn renders the both of you ridiculous, defeated and playing stupid games, either that or being truly stupid. Pick one.

Well the thread wasn't about the nature and quality of porn now was it? And um she does have her fact wrong. In fact they weren't even FACTS. They're OPINIONS.

Posted by Aaron_H:
That's because it had REAL actors and it didn't deal 100% with sex. Of course due to the subject matter at the time the MPAA had to slap an X rating on it.

Again, she’s making value judgments on acting talent, she’s spelling it out for you, listen to the words themselves and also put it in the overall context. So there is no assuming on my part, the questions were about acting talent and she’s talking about acting talent. Stop trying to play dumb.

Define REAL actors. If I am understanding this correctly you're saying that because porn stars aren't on the big screen they aren't REAL actors. Well then in that case 99% of the models on this site aren't REAL models. Seems to me that while we may be trying to play dumb you AREN'T playing dumb at all.

I think you're the one who really needs to re-read the thread. We can make judgements on acting talent of mainstream hollywood stars all day. People made judgements on the acting talent of Tom Hanks, and Robin Williams, John Travolta, and having been given a chance what did they do? Win Oscars. In fact Tom Hanks was only the second other actor to win Best Actor 2 years in a row, and if memory serves the only one to be nominated 3 years in a row.

How much "TALENT" does it actually take to be a model? Here wear this and hold that, smile and look pretty. Hell Morris the cat did that for years. But we don't discount their value to the industry.

Another thing that people need to remember is that it is the PORN industry that has made it possible for you to actually buy video tapes, and camcorders. Our high demand for the product brought the prices down to where anyone can buy a video camera and tape and make movies.

Hollywood is just NOW starting to get into the digital medium for their movies, we've been doing it for years.

The adult industry OWNS the internet and the technology surrounding it. It is because of PORN that you have broadband, and much of the internet technology you use daily. Why? Because no one else needs faster connections to stream movies like we do. No one else does it more than we do. And when I say we, I mean from the housewife in BFE who decided to have a little fun and get naughty all the way up to the big dogs like Vivid.

It has only been about 5 - 6 years that it has been a standard practice for big Hollywierd studios to put their trailers for upcoming movies on the internet. I've been putting movies on the internet for 9 years.

Ahhhhh Jenna..... LOL

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 
I think porn with story lines suck!

Just get to the fuckiing already.  Sheesh!!

lol

I

Posted by DJ Foothill:
Well we werent talking about good acting and bad acting now were we? 

Yes, in fact we were, you're just incapable of understanding that.

Your entire post is mind boggling in how many things you've twisted, misunderstood or are plain clueless about. I couldn't even get through the end of it. I'll come back later and try to finish reading it when I have time... for god knows what reason... and I'll waste my time responding to a few of your absurdities

Posted by Aaron_H: 

Posted by DJ Foothill:
Well we werent talking about good acting and bad acting now were we? 

Posted by Aaron_H:
Yes, in fact we were, you're just incapable of understanding that.

Ummm I didn't see where Reese said ANYTHING about good or bad acting. She asked if they were models and or actors. That is what you seem to not understand.

Posted by Aaron_H:
Your entire post is mind boggling in how many things you've twisted, misunderstood or are plain clueless about. I couldn't even get through the end of it. I'll come back later and try to finish reading it when I have time... for god knows what reason... and I'll waste my time responding to a few of your absurdities

Twisted? What have I twisted? Clueless? Im sorry that my facts based on my personal experience and knowledge from DOING it and being around it for the last 9 years of my life elude your mental capabilities.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 
I think porn with story lines suck!

Just get to the fuckiing already.  Sheesh!!

lol

I

Posted by greenlightprint: 
They probably would like to be called models for their self esteem

See that's the funny thing. They don't even refer to themselves as models most of the time if they do videos. The fact is people in the industry aren't so all consumed with their silly little egos and what people label us. We just don't care. Just pay us for doing whatever we're doing and that's all that matters to us. And believe me we do get very WELL paid.

Not to mention that most of the people in the industry are shrewd business people.

Posted by Brent Burzycki: 

Posted by Cicada: 

Jayna Oso and others who do double anal/double vag...cytherea being a human super soaker..taylor rain and her elastic a....

Ah what money will do to a person...... but i have to say - Cytherea is a site to behold.... at least once...

Yes, Cytherea....*dazes off*