Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

If MM does this, then why shouldn't MM do the same for photographers?

Because it is a fact that the number of photographer-threads derailed by models is significantly less than model-threads derailed by photographers.

Axioma wrote:
I agree with your observation that some of the "advice" of non-models in the model colloquy can be unhelpful, irrelevant and/or paternalistic. I've posted about this observation before and how it makes me less inclined to post. Not because I am scared, but because it's simply really tiresome.

However I'm not pro making this forum area "models only". The reason behind this is that it will only adjourn the problem. (And possible even make it worse.)

I can already predict the spoof-threads, referring to a certain model-colloquy, where the poster gives the same unhelpful, irrelevant and/or paternalistic advice but now has the chance to diminish all arguments in the OP (s)he saw accumulated in that thread. "Securing" his/her superiority over those naive, ignorant models.

Not pro option 1: reduces my visibility/networking ability to other members.
Not pro option 2: see above.
So I guess that makes me an option 3 kind of gal.

Part of the reason I'm suggesting it, is that I've seen option 1 implemented on other modeling sites and it seems to work very well.

I can't say I've seen any "spoof" threads appear on those sites, as it's only the models that see the contents of that forum anyway.

As for the networking effect, that could still be achieved via the other forums and may even be boosted if making the MC forum "models only" increases forum interaction by newer members, etc.

Axioma wrote:

Because it is a fact that the number of photographer-threads derailed by models is significantly less than model-threads derailed by photographers.

Precisely.

The number of model threads derailed by photographers in MC is out of all proportion to the number of threads derailed by models, mua's, etc in any of the other forums.

- Phil H - wrote:
Part of the reason I'm suggesting it, is that I've seen option 1 implemented on other modeling sites and it seems to work very well.

I can't say I've seen any "spoof" threads appear on those sites, as it's only the models that see the contents of that forum anyway.

As for the networking effect, that could still be achieved via the other forums and may even be boosted if making the MC forum "models only" increases forum interaction by newer members, etc.

If there was a "models only" forum I'd probably spend most of my time there, because those are the topics that concern me the most. Posting about the same topics elsewhere, ain't nobody got time for that. Yet I need the visibility amongst photographers/others. So that's a problem.

Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

But it does happen, right?. Then my question stands.

Not to any significant degree and not to anywhere remotely close to the degree photographers do it in this forum.

Case in point . . . . your contributing here in a thread where MODEL ONLY input was requested.

If photographers want a photographer only forum, I don't have an issue with that, I suspect most models wouldn't care a jot, where that the case.

Axioma wrote:
If there was a "models only" forum I'd probably spend most of my time there, because those are the topics that concern me the most. Posting about the same topics elsewhere, ain't nobody got time for that. Yet I need the visibility amongst photographers/others. So that's a problem.

As mentioned, there are still plenty of other forums where one could network and granted you may not want to be active in those forums, the MC forum to my mind, has hit a point where it's overwhelmingly dominated by photographers.

So much so in fact, that it's having a disproportionately negative effect on forum participation by newer models, resulting in them staying away from the forums altogether.

In some instances, it's even prompting them to leave, to shut down their accounts altogether. Personally, I would prefer not see model initiated threads here in MC, end with the comment "The OP has left the building".

- Phil H - wrote:
As mentioned, there are still plenty of other forums where one could network and granted you may not want to be active in those forums, the MC forum to my mind, has hit a point where it's overwhelmingly dominated by photographers.

So much so in fact, that it's having a disproportionately negative effect on forum participation by newer models, resulting in them staying away from the forums altogether.

In some instances, it's even prompting them to leave, to shut down their accounts altogether. Personally, I would prefer not see model initiated threads here in MC, end with the comment "The OP has left the building".

I absolutely agree with the problem, as I've stated at the beginning of my post. I'm just not sure about the solution.

Mods giving more warnings might be more effective. But that would require more effort in moderating of course.

- Phil H - wrote:

As mentioned, there are still plenty of other forums where one could network and granted you may not want to be active in those forums, the MC forum to my mind, has hit a point where it's overwhelmingly dominated by photographers.

So much so in fact, that it's having a disproportionately negative effect on forum participation by newer models, resulting in them staying away from the forums altogether.

In some instances, it's even prompting them to leave, to shut down their accounts altogether. Personally, I would prefer not see model initiated threads here in MC, end with the comment "The OP has left the building".

I've been here, and active on the forums since 2007, and where I once felt that this forum focused on building and supporting the MM model community, and providing us a place to chit-chat and learn from each other, that no longer exists. It's no surprise to me that the online traveling model community - as a whole - has seemed to weaken also. There used to be a more supportive network of traveling models across the US, and we relied on each other to learn about where to network, how to work, who to work with (and whom to avoid), places to stay, etc. We often MET each other in forums like MC, and then built working relationships outside of the forums. That is nowhere near as strong as it used to be, in part because I think a lot of us feel "drowned out" and generally disrespected in the very place that many of us used to build our networks, community and "brands."

Koryn wrote:

I've been here, and active on the forums since 2007, and where I once felt that this forum focused on building and supporting the MM model community, and providing us a place to chit-chat and learn from each other, that no longer exists. It's no surprise to me that the online traveling model community - as a whole - has seemed to weaken also. There used to be a more supportive network of traveling models across the US, and we relied on each other to learn about where to network, how to work, who to work with (and whom to avoid), places to stay, etc. We often MET each other in forums like MC, and then built working relationships outside of the forums. That is nowhere near as strong as it used to be, in part because I think a lot of us feel "drowned out" and generally disrespected in the very place that many of us used to build our networks, community and "brands."

Koryn, could you do me a huge favor and repost this in the site related forum. I feel it might be helpful for some of the contributors there to read a models perspective on this matter.

The thread is here - https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=922008

- Phil H - wrote:

Koryn, could you do me a huge favor and repost this in the site related forum. I feel it might be helpful for some of the contributors there to read a models perspective on this matter.

The thread is here - https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=922008

Is there a way that you could repost it there, using my "quote" link thing, but under your name as a Mod. At this point, as a model, the conversations have become so one-sided, I feel that pretty much anything I post will just be ignored by non-models. At least, if it's reposted in a very obvious way, under the name of a Moderator, it might actually add some clout, or make people care to read it. With how things have degenerated in the past year or two, any model's post, no matter how relevant it might be is looked at as: "Oh, just another stupid little girl "

Koryn wrote:

Is there a way that you could repost it there, using my "quote" link thing, but under your name as a Mod. At this point, as a model, the conversations have become so one-sided, I feel that pretty much anything I post will just be ignored by non-models. At least, if it's reposted in a very obvious way, under the name of a Moderator, it might actually add some clout, or make people care to read it. With how things have degenerated in the past year or two, any model's post, no matter how relevant it might be is looked at as: "Oh, just another stupid little girl "

Well said Koryn

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I'd prefer if the model forum was better moderated.

Without doubt, models do not take part for fear of insult, sarcasm, bullying etc from a minority of photographers.

But most photographers are fine. I think it would be a shame if photographers cant take part simply because of the behaviour and attitude of a few.

In any forum, any discussion resorting to ad hominem is bad. There ate rules against it and they are not enforced.

A number if photographers have a very narrow definition of modelling. They come out with ridiculous ideas that you have to be industry standard fashion models or you can't model unless you do nude. Therefore any model contributing is immediately pounced upon and sneered at.

It isn't only photographers that do this either. Models can do it too.
But photographers can be particularly nasty and full of misinformation simply because we may not fit the kind of mould they are specifically looking for . So I know this is why models dont take part. It's also why often they don't bother responding to requests from photographers at all. They use their ports to apply for castings on and off site rather than take part in the community. Okay I cannot speak for all models so we will just say that's what the thirty or so who have contacted me of late say.

I know several models  MM for eg from this very busy London agency for example who have tv campaign and editorial credits galore yet it was hailed with ridicule by certain photographers when I posted it

http://www.ugly.org/UGLY-MODELS/


Modelling is a great deal more diverse than people think it is. We have for example life models here of all ages shapes and sizes and both genders.


It's not all high fashion, and it's certainly not all nude. The vast majority of paid castings are for non nude and not rigid fashion industry stats.



Now I'd like for photographers to continue to take part but personal attacks and widely held prejudices seized upon and dealt with.


If this doesn't happen I'd add my voice to models only section. Perhaps photographers asking questions can contribute, but others forbidden even. Certainly all should be able to read.

If it goes on as it is, I'd like to see experienced cross genre models as moderators. Male and female. Variety of nations. Variety of genres headed up by someone like Victoria Elle. No photographer mods allowed. All photographers resorting to ad hominem deleted and brigged. Disagreement is fine, but nobody should have to endure the "you're not a real model' crap; "models seeking pay are mercenary" etc.

Ultimately modelling is a field and craft that has many genres. And models should not have to endure ridicule because they don't fit into precoceived stereotypes nor have to put up with vicious attacks on the model community here in general for flakes by other individuals.

Otherwise if nothing at all us done maybe change the site name to "photographer mayhem" and we can all maybe bugger off and start a model friendly site

TBH, this matter would not have been raised, were it not for the fact it's become such a noticeable issue and one that's frequently commented on, by models on other sites.

On those other sites, there's a huge amount of European models who are considerably more active elsewhere, than on here, despite the fact they hold accounts here and do a great deal of their networking here.

The most commonly cited reason when asked why . . . . . because there are so many photographers that are openly contemptuous of models opinions, thoughts, etc.

Yes, additional moderation might help, but as stated elsewhere, when a forum hits a point where every thread needs to be monitored 24/7, it's failed.
No other group have their threads so consistently hijacked or throttled to the degree of choking off responses, than models and it's not acceptable.

Mua's don't let shit like that fly in their forum, neither do photographers or retouchers . . . . I don't see why the MC forum should be any different.

I guess, now I think about it . . . . I want to see control of the Models forum placed back in their hands and wrested from the hands of photographers.

Koryn wrote:

Is there a way that you could repost it there, using my "quote" link thing, but under your name as a Mod. At this point, as a model, the conversations have become so one-sided, I feel that pretty much anything I post will just be ignored by non-models. At least, if it's reposted in a very obvious way, under the name of a Moderator, it might actually add some clout, or make people care to read it. With how things have degenerated in the past year or two, any model's post, no matter how relevant it might be is looked at as: "Oh, just another stupid little girl "

Sure, I'll take care of it.

- Phil H - wrote:
TBH, this matter would not have been raised, were it not for the fact it's become such a noticeable issue and one that's frequently commented on, by models on other sites.

On those other sites, there's a huge amount of European models who are considerably more active elsewhere, than on here, despite the fact they hold accounts here and do a great deal of their networking here.

The most commonly cited reason when asked why . . . . . because there are so many photographers that are openly contemptuous of models opinions, thoughts, etc.

Yes, additional moderation might help, but as stated elsewhere, when a forum hits a point where every thread needs to be monitored 24/7, it's failed.
No other group have their threads so consistently hijacked or throttled to the degree of choking off responses, than models and it's not acceptable.

Mua's don't let shit like that fly in their forum, neither do photographers or retouchers . . . . I don't see why the MC forum should be any different.

I guess, now I think about it . . . . I want to see control of the Models forum placed back in their hands and wrested from the hands of photographers.

Give only models moderator status here could be a start.

Otherwise, why not have option 1, plus a sticky thread that photographers van also contribute to, called:

"Models...why don't you shave your bush, get rid of that filthy ink, grow 8 inches in height, stop having zits and periods it's unprofessional, model nude tf for free, stop being mercenary, stop pretending to be models if you hand out flyers, and don't you realise it's all your faults when one if you flakes" thread which we can just ignore?

Laura Bello wrote:

I know this is going to get hidden but yes do that cause I hate reading those stupid, pointless ranting forum posts and much as you guys do.

There is rarely a problem with female photographers; and thank you x