Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

There is rarely a problem with female photographers; and thank you x

That's because the source of a lot of the bullying is heavily tinged with sexism and reverse ageism, which only gets worse, the fewer young, female voices feel comfortable conversing here.

Koryn wrote:
I'm also not surprised that the responses to the quandary over here are much more detailed, and people who've contributed seem to be thinking through some options, at least attempting productivity, but the commentary on the antagonist thread (dominated by photographers) seems to be more ...um... Scathing and divisive?

It's brilliant, it turns out if you stop photographers from getting their daily dick slap at the models they turn on each other like rabid animals.

And for that reason I support banning photographers from the models forum

JadeDRed wrote:

It's brilliant, it turns out if you stop photographers from getting their daily dick slap at the models they turn on each other like rabid animals.

And for that reason I support banning photographers from the models forum

I mean, good lord, none of us are over here ripping each other to shreds, though we clearly disagree on how to deal with the concern.

Koryn wrote:

I mean, good lord, none of us are over here ripping each other to shreds.

That's because we only do that fetish stuff for pay.

Forum catfights, an unexplored avenue of moneymaking.

JadeDRed wrote:

That's because we only do that fetish stuff for pay.

Forum catfights, an unexplored avenue of moneymaking.

I'm known for my brutality on the  cyber battlefield.

IDiivil wrote:
With all due respect, let's not make this into a model vs photographer bashfest... We'll be exactly what we're complaining about if we pull that.

Okay. But it's amazing to have just one thread where no photographers are attacking us and so couldn't resist -  sorry I got excited

IDiivil wrote:
With all due respect, let's not make this into a model vs photographer bashfest... We'll be exactly what we're complaining about if we pull that.

Agreed, we were just having a little giggle.

It's worth considering what attitudes we consider to be causing this problem.

For example, I respect the information and opinions regulars like Koryn and Eliza bring to the forums, I think they do us a service. Is that solely because they are models? No. Is it because I always agree with them? No.

Sometimes, I agree with them. Sometimes, I completely disagree with them. The vast majority of the time I respect the way the have formulated and expressed their opinions. Sometimes I will see a weakness in their arguments that comes from a narrow area of experience, even though they have relatively large amounts of experience. That is unavoidable for any one individual, we can't do everything, modelling is too big.

This problem is also what taints a lot of photographers advice. However unlike Koryn and Eliza who have a narrow range of experience when viewed in proportion to the entirety of modelling, but a large amount of experience as individuals, the photographer who offer advice often have zero first hand experience at all of modelling. Does this mean their advice is worthless? Not necessarily. But do photographers accept this stance of lacking real experience and evidence in the amounts offered by some models? No. In fact they often act in a way that assumes that their opinions are superior regardless.

I have had posts where I explained my actual real world experiences, having actually tried and tested the options being discussed. And I have had self-admitted newbies who have shot may be two models, say yeh but actually I'm right anyway in an incredibly condescending manner. These attitudes have become so overwhelming here they drown out useful advice from photographers who actually bother to represent what they are saying in a realistic way. And in doing so have made the input of photographers worse than useless.

So on that basis I support a trial in adjusting the way in which photographers contribute to the model forums to see if we can address some of the problems that have made this forum practically useless except as a chance for photographers to let off some steam/play the big man.

(And I, like most models I imagine, am perfectly fine with that applying to other member type specific forums.)

Paige Thomley wrote:
Some people (like myself) are both models and photographers and can give helpful advice and input either way. You would be discouraging people like me who are familiar with both sides of the camera from adding input. While I agree that photographers tend to hijack threads I don't like this idea. Most models can see the Mayhem forums for what they are and are aware that at least once in their posting some a*s hat is going to offer their unsolicited 'advice'.

If you are a photographer also I would encourage you to have a profile for that. I personally suck at photographing people but I do take pictures of inanimate objects. I do like input from other professionals. It's when the professionals act like little bratty kids that I am put off.

- Phil H - wrote:
I've had another suggestion put forward via PM, I'll post it below and add it to my opening post.

Option 4) Code in an option that allows models when starting a new post in the MC forum, can opt to:
a) have the post open to everyone or

b) hidden so only other models can see it.

If it could be done in one forum, it could also potentially be offered as an option for the other specialist forums.

This is a good line of thinking.

Evie Wolfe wrote:
Option #2
As much as I would miss the input of certain forum regulars, and the experience they provide, there are other forums we can still join in together, and I think it is important to create an environment where new models are encouraged and supported to post.
Ideally, the forum would be moderated in such a way that the a model only place wouldn't be needed, but the culture is too ingrained- the MODs have too much to do already.

I would say though, if option #2 is implemented, the MODs should be prepared for photographers sending PMs to models posting instead, which may increase instances of inbox abuse.

It's easy to just block someone if they send you a hateful email. You can't block someone posting bullcrap on a message board.

marissa charles wrote:
What may happen though is some Photographers may look at the Models who contribute to these Forums and then choose to not work with us.

No one here is talking shit about anyone specifically.

It's a rational conversation.

Koryn wrote:
It's easy to just block someone if they send you a hateful email. You can't block someone posting bullcrap on a message board.

That is very true

Koryn wrote:

No one here is talking shit about anyone specifically.

It's a rational conversation.

Huh?
I have been blocked by a couple of Photographers in the years I have been on here, jus because I did not stroke their ego on a mild topic. They PM me and call me a whore. So even when we could be asking each other about which  is the best foundation to buy, there will be ones out there who would resent us discussing anything without their input.

marissa charles wrote:
I have been blocked by a couple of Photographers in the years I have been on here, jus because I did not stroke their ego on a mild topic. They PM me and call me a whore.

Whoa.

marissa charles wrote:
So even when we could be asking each other about which  is the best foundation to buy, there will be ones out there who would resent us discussing anything without their input.

Oh, yeah. I totally agree with this.

It's sort of like the guys who always go into the "nude shoot on your period" threads, and talk about menstruation. They just can't control themselves.

Koryn wrote:

marissa charles wrote:
I have been blocked by a couple of Photographers in the years I have been on here, jus because I did not stroke their ego on a mild topic. They PM me and call me a whore.

Whoa.


Oh, yeah. I totally agree with this.

It's sort of like the guys who always go into the "nude shoot on your period" threads, and talk about menstruation. They just can't control themselves.

There does need to be stricter moderating as the incidence of pure bullying increases. I remember that particular Bloody thread.

Isis22 wrote:
If you are a photographer also I would encourage you to have a profile for that. I personally suck at photographing people but I do take pictures of inanimate objects. I do like input from other professionals. It's when the professionals act like little bratty kids that I am put off.

I am gathering portfolio worthy images first before I do that, but it's the next step.

Koryn wrote:
I'll be glad admit seeking the sage sales guidance of another model via PMs, and it has helped my marketing and work immensely since I resumed modeling full-time.

I mean, doubled my profit. Easily. And I've been doing this for years already, before even having that long chat/think session.

If she and I had discussed on the public message boards the things we discussed via PM, made it a discussion that welcomed newbie models -- it would have caused a shit-storm.

Heads would have been ripped off. The sky would have rained blood. The Second Coming would have surely arrived.

It was productive. Very productive. Freelance models marketing themselves in order to increase revenue. You absolutely CANNOT talk about that publicly on MC, because of the fire that will surely erupt - fanned by people who hate the idea that non-agency models, often with unique looks and proportions, can actually be reasonably financially comfortable. It's a huge taboo around here, but it shouldn't be.

People have a right to get paid for performing services; that is what the economy runs on, and it's how innovation occurs.  We live in a nation of small business owners, but when the small business is an individual female, seeking to increase her profit doing something she genuinely loves and is good at -- all hell breaks loose. She's a bitch. A whore. A gold-digger.

When a photographer's business takes off, and he's shooting all the time, he gets patted on the back for his business savvy.

I will admit there's a lot in this bit that I wouldn't discuss openly when I was full time because I had to consider how it would come across to those who were potential clients.

However I don't think the solution is to shield easily bruised egos with the Madonna-whore complex from hearing things they don't like to admit are true,  I think the solution is they need to fucking suck it up and if they can't play nice about things they don't like hearing they get punished like anyone else on the site would. They don't need any more "it's for your own good" ego coddling. If there's a need to empower models to be able to have their say, I don't think that comes from hiding them away from anyone who's going to be a naysayer, it would come from telling the naysayers to shut the hell up for once and just listen.


But of course I get to have that opinion from the standpoint of someone who no longer relies on needing those people to like me so I can make my living, and it would obviously be in other models best interest to not openly agree with me lest they upset the fragile artists...so what do I know.

- Phil H - wrote:
I've had another suggestion put forward via PM, I'll post it below and add it to my opening post.

Option 4) Code in an option that allows models when starting a new post in the MC forum, can opt to:
a) have the post open to everyone or

b) hidden so only other models can see it.

If it could be done in one forum, it could also potentially be offered as an option for the other specialist forums.

I support this option.  Or the option of having a subforum within MC where only models can post.

Danielle Reid wrote:
I'm all for a Models Only forum. I see an increase of rants from photographers about how much models suck or what they NEED to change, blah blah.

When I first started MM I was bashed by PHOTOGRAPHERS in this very forum for asking questions to other models. Since then I've just grown to know that no matter what, photographers and other non-models will throw their input in despite the OP politely asking for MODELS to respond.

So yes, my vote is for Models Only

You were strong enough and determined enough to ignore all of that and pursue freelance modeling despite the bashings.  But for every 1 aspiring model, like you, who can get past it, there are probably 20 who believe when they are told they'll never make it and give up.

All the photographers ranting about why a model puts up a portfolio here, does a couple shoots and never logs in again could be answered if they'd only look at what they are doing.  Instead of fostering a mentoring, encouraging climate, they unleash a condescending barrage of criticism. 

We need to feel good about ourselves to stand in front of a camera, flaws and all, for the world to see.  Tearing us down doesn't help anyone.

- Phil H - wrote:
3) I would prefer the forum to remain as is, where everyone can read and respond to posts.
- - - - - - - - -

I do not like exclusion. I think it would diminish the site hugely.

Jen

IDiivil wrote:
Regarding #1... It has its perks to me, but there's too much "model secret society" potential behind it. On top of that, I think alienating other team members to such an extent that they can't even see the thread being posted would be a mistake.

If we create a models only exclusive forum I will likely never post or read there. I do not like exclusion and will self-select myself out. Thank you,
Jen