Deadlynightshade wrote:

Hmmm that is very interesting.  So are you saying it would be more beneficial to live in NY to get jobs?

What if I wanted to sign with an agent such as Fusion or Elite or any of those well established NY agencies?

I recommend reading this site thoroughly:  www.newmodels.com

Then I recommend reading it again.

And specifically, to answer your question here, read this page: http://www.newmodels.com/modelintro.html

www.newmodels.com wrote:
What does it take to be a model?

            1.  Location. If you aren’t where the market is, you won’t get work.

            2.  Investment, of both time and money is needed.  Becoming a model isn’t free, although it may be affordable.  At a minimum you will have to have the Required Marketing Materials.

             3.  Height.  It’s a lot harder if you are 5’2” tall.

             4.  Attitude. Can make or break your career.  Usually it breaks it.

             5.  Looks. Sure, they are important, but look where they are on the list.

             6.  “Being Discovered”.  You think this is how it works?


...


Location

This is the single most important thing needed to be successful as a model.  You need to be where the jobs are!

It’s possible (remotely possible, not likely) that you may be flown to a job at client expense some day.  It happens.  But it only happens after you have been selected for the job – and that takes place where the client and the market are.  For "fly to" jobs, that is almost always a major market city like New York or Los Angeles.

Jay Bowman wrote:
I want to be clear that I can not speak for Leo (lll).  At any rate, you've almost answered your own question in a way.

Deadlynightshade wrote:
So are you saying it would be more beneficial to live in NY to get jobs?

Think of it this way:  if you have a go-see in NYC at 9am tomorrow, you have to book a flight for it.  What if you can't get a flight?  You miss the go-see.  I don't think you'd have to miss too many go-sees before you realize that it would be more cost effective & practical if you lived in NYC and simply took the subway.


Say you have an agency.  A girl comes to you who wants to model and model for you but she doesn't want to move.  What does that tell you about her commitment?  Are you in any way comfortable sending her to go-sees in NYC when she lives in AZ (especially if you already have models living in NYC who you can send)?  Would you even bother?

lol.. why would I book a go-see if I wasn't able to make it? I hope I didn't appear to have a commitment issue. that's not the case at all.

Deadlynightshade wrote:
lol.. why would I book a go-see if I wasn't able to make it? I hope I didn't appear to have a commitment issue. that's not the case at all.

oh good grief....

that's not what Jay said.

What Jay said is: "Yes, living in NYC is the best way to model in NYC."

Deadlynightshade wrote:
lol.. why would I book a go-see if I wasn't able to make it? I hope I didn't appear to have a commitment issue. that's not the case at all.

Heh. 


I think you might be missing my point slightly...

James Jackson wrote:
oh good grief....

that's not what Jay said.

What Jay said is: "Yes, living in NYC is the best way to model in NYC."

::snicker::

John Fisher wrote:
Smaller agencies are more likely to scout this way as it gives them an opportunity to see someone before the usual suspects have a shot at them.

This is not true.  The largest, best agencies have been using models.com to scout from for years, and find many of their models there.  It's relatively recent that the smaller agencies have been involved to any great degree.

MDC FAQ wrote:
The MODELS.com Participating Agencies features most of the biggest/best agencies in the business, but we do not have everyone. If an agency is not listed they may still be a good agency.

Fusion is listed as a Participating Agency.  A diligent reading of the models.com FAQ makes it clear that Fusion is legitimate. 

Deadlynightshade wrote:
I've read the FAQ's -don't assume that I haven't.

Which leads us to substantive question number two:

2.  Do I have to relocate to be a NYC agency model.

MDC FAQ wrote:
In most cases you will need to be in the same market/location to get signed by a commercial agency. While you may be flown to another location for a shoot, it is not common for an agency or client to fly a model from a small town to a major market for a photo shoot or to sign them. Commercial agencies will usually work only with models living and working in the same location.

Again, anyone who has read the models.com FAQ should not be surprised at the notion that you have to live where the agency, and the work, are.

lll wrote:
Showing initiative is reading the FAQ on Models.com and proactively go find out more about the real-world modeling agencies.  There are plenty of info on Fusion on Models.com and many other websites.

It is absurd to get a request from Models.com (a professional oriented website with a list of approved real-world agencies), and then ask a question on here and getting random answers from mostly people who don't know

I agree.

So why does this matter?  Several reasons.  Here’s one:

lll wrote:
What do you think the booker would think if he/she sees this thread?

Bookers do see threads like this, either because they are using the site themselves (anyone know for a fact that no member of fashion agencies’ staffs are not members here?) or because one of their models reads threads and points out references to them, or from their own google search (does anyone believe agencies don’t do that?)

Agencies do not like having people question them on modeling forums.  Agencies don’t like to have their internal business or correspondence discussed or quoted on modeling forums.  And agencies don’t like having to deal with models who have an “Internet model” mindset.  (If anyone doesn’t know what that means, it’s the subject for another thread.)  Posts like this manage to be bad on all those counts.

Here’s another reason why asking on the forum is a bad idea:  you get too many answers from people who don’t know the answer, but feel the need to respond anyway.

Deadlynightshade wrote:
Don't you agree it's always best to get a third party perspective on the situation?

No.  It’s always best to get the perspective of people who know what they are talking about.  Getting “perspectives” from people who don’t know is often counter-productive.

Deadlynightshade wrote:
If you wanted to find a company to connect your cell phone, wouldn't it be wise to ask your friends what they think of the company first?

No, not if they have never heard of the company and have never used a cell phone.  Because if you ask questions on sites where the bulk of the membership has no idea what the good agencies are and how they operate, you get answers like these, all of which are wrong for this case:

Len Cook Photographer wrote:
Smart girl.  MM can be a resource in more than one way. There is no single "approved" method.  Some folks sure know how to rain on someone else's parade.

Joseph_T wrote:
Research it, make phone calls to other agency's or representatives.  Look into it find out what other models they represent. 

DTA (don't trust anybody)  "Liar, everybody deceives me"

Pixel Fisher wrote:
I personally am in contact with agents and my sister-in-law is one for a major NYC agency... no agents I or she knows ever contact models this way...no time and too many beautiful walk-ins or agent discoverd models already.

Some people also put in good answers.  That’s fortunate, because it is all too easy on these forums to be on the fourth page of nonsense before anyone who actually knows anything says what the truth is.  By then the danger is that the right answer will be drowned in a sea of crap.

Leo Howard wrote:
And another thing I just thought of, you are a MOD here and you are basically telling someone to not use the fourms for what they are really designed for, does that seem logical to you?

Suggesting that people learn about the industry with good, authoritative resources available to them is very logical.  Suggesting that asking questions on a non-professional forum, where you get all manner of strange answers, might not be the best choice is also very logical.  Pointing out the limitations of the forums is logical.  Keeping the forums from being overcome with crap and repetitive questions because people can’t be bothered to do their own research is also logical (if unlikely to do any good, since it rarely works).

Leo Howard wrote:
Have you ever thought about statements and attitudes like yours has probably caused a lot of good people to leave MM

This wasn’t said to me, but it might as well have been, since I share the opinions Leo expressed.

Lots of good people have left.  Lots of people who actually understand the industry, tried to explain and to help, and had to deal with a constant stream of nonsense and abuse from people who do not understand.  The collective brain trust loss that MM has suffered from this is staggering.  The most commonly cited recent example is OGR, but there are lots of others.

Balance that loss, which is very real, very substantial, and caused by this kind of frustration, against the loss of some people who aren’t even serious enough about their modeling careers to actually read the wealth of material that is available about the industry they say they want to be in.

Leo Howard wrote:
Who the F*** cares what people ask on the forums, thats what forums are for a source of information, if the question is beneath you or you dont feel like answering, move on to something else.

Let's imagine that all the people who actually knew the right answer in this case (and there were several) did exactly that.  The effect would be that only wrong answers would be on the thread.  It's worse:  people see crap, believe it, and first thing you know, they start acting like they know what they are talking about and repeat it.  (For those unfamiliar with "the Tyra effect", that has already been discussed.)

And a constant stream of questions from people who will not take the trouble to help themselves ultimately has exactly that effect.

TXPhotog wrote:
Let's imagine that all the people who actually knew the right answer in this case (and there were several) did exactly that.  The effect would be that only wrong answers would be on the thread.  It's worse:  people see crap, believe it, and first thing you know, they start acting like they know what they are talking about and repeat it.  (For those unfamiliar with "the Tyra effect", that has already been discussed.)

And a constant stream of questions from people who will not take the trouble to help themselves ultimately has exactly that effect.

So why not preempt these unknowing people who get so far on your nerves then?  Why not offer the MM Forums lecture series... bring up topics such as "checking out your latest inbox offer" and "the internet model mentality"...  Discuss them with those on the boards who have a modicum of knowledge and industry experience...  Don't let the buffoons win, or even have much of a say in these threads, instead of lowering the expectations of those on the MM forums, and lowering the expectations and threshold of yourself.

lll wrote:
I have apologized if it came off negative, but it is the crux of the problem here and on a few other online modeling forums.  One needs to ultimately do something for themselves and can't expect to be fed all the time.  Personally I think my response has been mild in comparison to what would have been on the other website; it wouldn't be that tolerated.

You slammed her by assuming from your first post that she was an idiot who didn't do any research or checking on her own.  Where did you get that impression? From some other issue, I imagine, unrelated to her question.  I happen to know this woman, I've worked with her, and she is quite sharp, intelligent, and down to earth.

This forum is ANOTHER source of information, not the ONLY source of information.  And considering the assinine threads that get posted here all the time, it's nice to see a legitimate question from a model with a legitimate shot at getting signed.

James Jackson wrote:
So why not preempt these unknowing people who get so far on your nerves then?  Why not offer the MM Forums lecture series... bring up topics such as "checking out your latest inbox offer" and "the internet model mentality"...  Discuss them with those on the boards who have a modicum of knowledge and industry experience...  Don't let the buffoons win, or even have much of a say in these threads, instead of lowering the expectations of those on the MM forums, and lowering the expectations and threshold of yourself.

Back before I even joined MM, one of the early mods told me that he had brought up with Tyler setting up a special forum for me and others who had real industry experience.  There was no enthusiasm for it.

The direct answer to your question is that nobody would read it.  I guess as good an example as any is the recurrent Nigerian Scam threads.  We get those almost daily, either from some wide-eyed innocent who wants to know if they are real, or from some slightly more sophisiticated innocent who wants to warn everyone about them  - as though it hasn't already happened hundreds of times.  No matter how many times people post about something, within minutes it's like it never happened.  And anyone who knows understands how the industry works would never believe them for a moment, even if they had never heard of Nigeria or the scam.  The information to show how ridiculous the notion underlying them is, is readily available to anyone who chooses to read it.  Still, look at the numbers who do not.

As one of our correspondents showed very graphically and humorously, people don't even read the post they are responding to.  The lack of comprehension and willingness to understand casting call posts is the stuff of legend.

Another, slightly less direct answer is that I did write the equivalent of what you are suggesting.  It's called newmodels.com.  Anyone who read it and bothered to understand would certainly understand why the Nigerian Scam is BS, and, in the case of this thread, why you have to live where the work is.  Still, we get these questions by the boatload.

Another approach is to suggest to people, once they do say something that indicates they haven't bothered to read and understand the material that is readily avilable to them, that there is a resource they should be using.  But it seems every time we do that, this kind of conversation ensues.  "It's the purpose of the forum," we are told, for people to ask the same insipid questions over and over again.

Cetainly, the forum serves a useful purpose in answering people's questions.  There are lots of questions that aren't easy to answer in available references.  Other questions are more sophisticated responses to things that are in the material:  as we become smarter about a subject, we find more interesting things to wonder about.  And many people have personal situations that don't fit neatly into the categories that the reference material covers, and need advice about it.  All those kinds of things are excellent reasons to use forums.  But "what is an f stop?" or "how do I change the batteries in my camera?" (for photographers) are not.

Jefferson Dorsey wrote:
You slammed her by assuming from your first post that she was an idiot who didn't do any research or checking on her own.  Where did you get that impression?

I can't speak for Leo, but I can tell you where I would get such an impression (not that she is an idiot, but that she did not follow instructions and do her own checking before burdening others with a basic question).

She is a member of models.com, and posts on the forums there.  On every single forum page, every thread, every post, there is, at the top of the page, highlighted in yellow so you can't possibly miss it, the request that "NEW MEMBERS READ THIS FIRST".  Members are supposed to do that reading prior to posting precisely to avoid asking dumb questions.  A secondary, important benefit of reading about the industry is that you gain some context for the answers you get to your questions, so you know how to evaluate the responses you receive.

Within the material in the NEW MEMBERS READ THIS FIRST page, and the links within it, are the answers to her question.  But she asked the question anyway.

David Scott wrote:
How do you do a 3/4 shot of a face?

Doing the shot is easy.  All you have to do is find a model who only has 3/4 of a face.

TXPhotog wrote:

Doing the shot is easy.  All you have to do is find a model who only has 3/4 of a face.

Makes sense.  I better put a casting call up for 3/4 face models.

tripstar wrote:
People are just plan over critical some times. If its a burden to answer the question... Don't answer. If you have real advise give it without judging.

Already suggested, already answered.  It is a prescription for stupidity taking over the forums.

tripstar wrote:
A FAQ however comprehensive of information it may not be the desired source of information. Its much better to ask someone what they know so that if you have follow up questions you can explore them.

It is much better to have an educated, informed question so you can judge the value of the answer and how it fits with other things you know.  That makes for a much more valuable discourse.  Asking First Principles questions is just a drain on everyone, and a very inefficient and dangerous way for people to learn.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So not only didn't she take the time to
read his post she's a flake.

I'm of the opinion that there is a non-trivial correlation between those two attributes.  People who don't take the time to read are, in my mind, not serious about what they are doing - or are too self-absorbed that they can't bother to pay attention to what anyone else wants.  Flakes seem to fall into that category also.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
That aside I think many of the models here don't really
trust the sites they are on.

Any offer no matter how legitimate  is looked at as a possible scam and instead of
taking the time and energy to find out . . . .

I agree.  Above I make mention of the mentality of the "Internet model", and how agencies don't like it.  This is one of many aspects of that mentality.

TXPhotog wrote:
Another approach is to suggest to people, once they do say something that indicates they haven't bothered to read and understand the material that is readily avilable to them, that there is a resource they should be using.  But it seems every time we do that, this kind of conversation ensues.  "It's the purpose of the forum," we are told, for people to ask the same insipid questions over and over again.

Perhaps the real purpose of the forum boards is merely to entertain, in whatever form it takes, and thus try to ensure a high click through rate.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Perhaps the real purpose of the forum boards is merely to entertain, in whatever form it takes, and thus try to ensure a high click through rate.

Purpose, I suppose, depends on the perspective of the person defining it.  From the standpoint of the owner I'd guess you are right.  Users may have other purposes, however.  They are not always in consonance.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Perhaps the real purpose of the forum boards is merely to entertain, in whatever form it takes, and thus try to ensure a high click through rate.

TXPhotog wrote:
Purpose, I suppose, depends on the perspective of the person defining it.  From the standpoint of the owner I'd guess you are right.  Users may have other purposes, however.  They are not always in consonance.

Clearly.   In which case, said users might abandon the venue for another site, replaced by those who find entertainment preferable to actual education or other purpose or goal that isn't as "fun."

KM von Seidl wrote:
Clearly.   In which case, said users might abandon the venue for another site, replaced by those who find entertainment preferable to actual education or other purpose or goal that isn't as "fun."

I agree.  And the effect of that is to cause the "entertainment" site to lose value as an "education site" - because the people abandoning it would, in large part, be those capable of providing an education.

However, it's not at all clear, to the unsophisiticated observer, which is which, and since the entertainment site is more fun, those new to a site and wanting an education from it can find themselves badly misled.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Clearly.   In which case, said users might abandon the venue for another site, replaced by those who find entertainment preferable to actual education or other purpose or goal that isn't as "fun."

TXPhotog wrote:
I agree.  And the effect of that is to cause the "entertainment" site to lose value as an "education site" - because the people abandoning it would, in large part, be those capable of providing an education.

However, it's not at all clear, to the unsophisiticated observer, which is which, and since the entertainment site is more fun, those new to a site and wanting an education from it can find themselves badly misled.

Excellent point.

KM von Seidl wrote:

KM von Seidl wrote:
Clearly.   In which case, said users might abandon the venue for another site, replaced by those who find entertainment preferable to actual education or other purpose or goal that isn't as "fun."

Excellent point.

agreed

tripstar wrote:
A FAQ however comprehensive of information it may not be the desired source of information. Its much better to ask someone what they know so that if you have follow up questions you can explore them.

FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions.

Those who fail to read the FAQ don't know if their question is already answered.  The FAQ be is important for you to read first?  It may not be your desired source of information, but by not reading it you should not be surprised if people in the forum treat you as if you are lazy!

TXPhotog wrote:
Doing the shot is easy.  All you have to do is find a model who only has 3/4 of a face.

David Scott wrote:
Makes sense.  I better put a casting call up for 3/4 face models.

Joel Peter Witkin managed it by the simple expedient of using dead models & cutting their heads in to pieces first.
(and before anyone freaks out about killer photographers Witkin was using lawfully obtained bodies)
I guess that has the added benefit of not having to answer annoying questions about your work...

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hello, Tx.  Part of this thread reminds me of a casting call thread where a
photographer actually one you know said.  Please do not respond to this thread
but send a reply to my mailbox via my profile.  Giving a reply to this thread means
you can't follow directions and won't be a person I would want to work with.
Yep you guessed it a model replied.

You don't have to talk about me in the third person... I'm right here

Yes, I've done this as well to weed out models.

TXPhotog wrote:
Back before I even joined MM, one of the early mods told me that he had brought up with Tyler setting up a special forum for me and others who had real industry experience.  There was no enthusiasm for it.

The direct answer to your question is that nobody would read it.  I guess as good an example as any is the recurrent Nigerian Scam threads.  We get those almost daily, either from some wide-eyed innocent who wants to know if they are real, or from some slightly more sophisiticated innocent who wants to warn everyone about them  - as though it hasn't already happened hundreds of times.  No matter how many times people post about something, within minutes it's like it never happened.  And anyone who knows understands how the industry works would never believe them for a moment, even if they had never heard of Nigeria or the scam.  The information to show how ridiculous the notion underlying them is, is readily available to anyone who chooses to read it.  Still, look at the numbers who do not.

As one of our correspondents showed very graphically and humorously, people don't even read the post they are responding to.  The lack of comprehension and willingness to understand casting call posts is the stuff of legend.

Another, slightly less direct answer is that I did write the equivalent of what you are suggesting.  It's called newmodels.com.  Anyone who read it and bothered to understand would certainly understand why the Nigerian Scam is BS, and, in the case of this thread, why you have to live where the work is.  Still, we get these questions by the boatload.

Another approach is to suggest to people, once they do say something that indicates they haven't bothered to read and understand the material that is readily avilable to them, that there is a resource they should be using.  But it seems every time we do that, this kind of conversation ensues.  "It's the purpose of the forum," we are told, for people to ask the same insipid questions over and over again.

Cetainly, the forum serves a useful purpose in answering people's questions.  There are lots of questions that aren't easy to answer in available references.  Other questions are more sophisticated responses to things that are in the material:  as we become smarter about a subject, we find more interesting things to wonder about.  And many people have personal situations that don't fit neatly into the categories that the reference material covers, and need advice about it.  All those kinds of things are excellent reasons to use forums.  But "what is an f stop?" or "how do I change the batteries in my camera?" (for photographers) are not.

I understand where you are coming from.  A recent poster to the critique forum got rather upset because his questions were falling on less than pleased ears.  Suddenly I realized it's because he has no context... no method by which to communicate what he's asking.  Redirecting his energies to a learning method which might get him that context was easy, once it was obvious what he needed.

Unfortunately for you, and those of your level, I think you'll agree that Model Mayhem is much more accessible than models.com... and much more interactive than newmodels.com... both of which traits lead to an increase in participation and an easier access to learning.  So, I might say, you'll always have this problem so long as the site is free, and interactive.

It's the simple difference between learning through lab/internship vs. learning through reading.  Many people do not learn when they read, they simply memorize, and applying what they've memorized never occurs.

This message board is interactive, and in that way they actually learn.

I suppose you either have to accept that, and deal with the questions as they come, or allow/encourage others to answer the more simple questions.

James Jackson wrote:
I suppose you either have to accept that, and deal with the questions as they come, or allow/encourage others to answer the more simple questions.

One of the things that you find after being around here for a while is that there is no such thing as a "simple question" in the sense of people answering it always being right.  There also is no "simple question" in that questions demand context to make them meaningful.  The answer to a question may (often does) depend on the height, age, stats, personal situation, location or look of the person asking.  The "simple answers" often are wrong for that reason, even though they may be correct in another context.

Which gets back to the value of reading.  If people don't have the proper context to phrase their questions and understand the answers, the process becomes exceedingly painful.

Unfortunately for you, and those of your level, I think you'll agree that Model Mayhem is much more accessible than models.com... and much more interactive than newmodels.com... both of which traits lead to an increase in participation and an easier access to learning.  So, I might say, you'll always have this problem so long as the site is free, and interactive.

It's the simple difference between learning through lab/internship vs. learning through reading.  Many people do not learn when they read, they simply memorize, and applying what they've memorized never occurs.

This message board is interactive, and in that way they actually learn.

I suppose you either have to accept that, and deal with the questions as they come, or allow/encourage others to answer the more simple questions.

The first paragraph of the quote basically nailed it.  A person can read things but you can't expect them to understand everything or have them absorb every sentence.  Also, I have posted in the models.com forums and I hardly get any responses there... and that site is mostly young people with no experience, while MM has hundreds of professionals and knowledgeable people as well as some who may not know anything.  If someone read every possible thing thrown at them and did not understand some things, it makes them stupid and "fed" to ask a question?  Someone gave me a resource that answered my question (newmodels.com/#location) many posts earlier.  I got my answer, this is a dead topic now, GET OVER IT.  It may resurface again on the forums, but there's no reason to keep spitting insults.

Deadlynightshade wrote:
Also, I have posted in the models.com forums and I hardly get any responses there... and that site is mostly young people with no experience, while MM has hundreds of professionals and knowledgeable people as well as some who may not know anything.

No, that's not true.  You misunderstand what models.com is.

Of late there have been a lot of new people (almost all young and completely inexperienced), but that is a new phenomenon.  What has happened is that most of the "young people" do not read, do not do anything to help themselves, and post the same insipid questions that everyone else posts. 

There is also a substantial core of very experienced people there, including quite a few who work in agencies now, or have in the past.  It is by far the largest collection of real fashion and commercial modeling expertise on the 'net.  But that group is in revolt/burned out over the influx of all the newbies who will not take the time to help themselves.  Although there is some response to most of them, the best people, and the best responses, are held in reserve for those who show that they are serious and willing to do their part.

That is, models.com is experiencing some of the same loss of talent that MM is, and for much the same reason.  But for now none of them have really left, they have just retreated to the paying members only part of the site, to come out only when there seems to be a good reason to.  Newbies asking basic questions that they should get on their own are not a good reason.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
Remember, people, as far as I know, TX is not being paid for this.

As far as I know, too . . . .  None of the more experienced members are being paid for their expertise, at least in money.  The "payment" comes from seeing that good advice has good results.  Sadly, when dealing with people who will not help themselves, that rarely is true.

TXPhotog wrote:
It's a good agency that is on the models.com approved list.  You are a member - read the list!

I will never understand why people put themselves out to get something, get it, and then question it.

Lol I second that!

Elizabeth G wrote:
I guess the way I see it is, if you feel like you are above the question being asked, or if you feel it is too "simple" or "stupid" , then simply choose not to answer. I guess I just don't understand why some people feel the need to bring negativity and arguments into everything.

I wonder how many times this has to be said before it finally sinks in . . . .

If people who know the truth don't answer, others will.  Others do.  And the "others" inevitably get hostile when someone tells them they are wrong.  Hence negativity.

Your suggestion is a prescription for the death of the forums as a useful teaching tool.

Elizabeth G wrote:
I guess the way I see it is, if you feel like you are above the question being asked, or if you feel it is too "simple" or "stupid" , then simply choose not to answer. I guess I just don't understand why some people feel the need to bring negativity and arguments into everything.

Because ignoring it doesn't change anything for the better. Stupid accumulates.