Dave Bulger wrote:
It may simply be a matter of expectations -- the model could very well have expected every shot from the shoot.

Some want them.  Some don't.

I concur with the excellent advice re making sure expectations are set on both ends prior to shooting.  That way everyone walks away happy.

Just 'caused she asked doesn't make her an image-grubbing evil one.  This may simply be a lack of experience.

YOU HAVE A POINT THERE

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:

But doesn't "buying" the hard copies at a TFP "Time For Prints" shoot eliminate the purpose of TFP? Let's explore this a little...

The whole idea of TFP is that no money changes hands.  It is a fair and equal trade.  Models have obvious reasons for shooting TFP; practice infront of the camera and images to build a portfolio with.  Photographers have various reasons that range from hobby, to testing new equipment or techniques, learning photography, testing for future project use, or simply because they just enjoy
photography or wish to shoot a specific look, style, concept, or person.

Yes.. but look at this .. they give me a cd.. I can go to what ever store and get images printed and all that... .That is not Cool...
The exchange we did was done and i got what i needed and so did he.. but i go as far as getting my copies in hard print with my own money ... why..?
they gave me a sitting and a cd with my images on it... why not?

EMG STUDIOS wrote:
I give girls 1 retouched image from each wardrobe change when shooting TFP.. The others are available for purchase..

Hmmm, I need to start exploring that purchase option

Bella Sin wrote:

Yes.. but look at this .. they give me a cd.. I can go to what ever store and get images printed and all that... .That is not Cool...
The exchange we did was done and i got what i needed and so did he.. but i go as far as getting my copies in hard print with my own money ... why..?
they gave me a sitting and a cd with my images on it... why not?

This is true... Now that I think about it, I wish more models would do the same. Good point Bella.

Bella Sin wrote:

a model needs a photographer and the photographer needs a model....
we have as much right as you to have all the images.
but there is also the route i take..
I buy all hard copies from you and ref you at least 10 paying customers.
that way you have made some money..

The problem is with models putting up unretouched photos.   Setting up the lights, going click click with the shutter is only 1/2 the story.  Like a movie we do post production.

It is unreasonable to expect a photographer to retouch every image.  Me personally i let a model pick out images that she likes and will retouch them.  I also give her a copy of every image i retouch for myself.

Models don't want me to post an image that makes thier ass look fat, or shows a huge zit.  I don't want models to post photos i've taken that aren't retouched.

I'm an artist not a glamour shooter, it is about creative control and building a brand name.   Right now i'm dealing with a model that has posted several shots i did of her that were not intended for the web and not retouched, or for anyone else to see.

Those photos make me look bad.   It's all about give and take and finding equity.
Giving everything away isn't equitable.

Cecil Sharps wrote:

The problem is with models putting up unretouched photos.   Setting up the lights, going click click with the shutter is only 1/2 the story.  Like a movie we do post production.

It is unreasonable to expect a photographer to retouch every image.  Me personally i let a model pick out images that she likes and will retouch them.  I also give her a copy of every image i retouch for myself.

Models don't want me to post an image that makes thier ass look fat, or shows a huge zit.  I don't want models to post photos i've taken that aren't retouched.

I'm an artist not a glamour shooter, it is about creative control and building a brand name.   Right now i'm dealing with a model that has posted several shots i did of her that were not intended for the web and not retouched, or for anyone else to see.

Those photos make me look bad.   It's all about give and take and finding equity.
Giving everything away isn't equitable.

I get some that are retouch and some that are not..
i will go back and ask if i can have this and that .. and some times they do it..
but some photographers dont edit images for you ..
i work with the photographer as much as possible... hell i even took one or two flowers cus my pics came out great..

I think a model should be as thankful as a photographer

Cecil Sharps wrote:

The problem is with models putting up unretouched photos.   Setting up the lights, going click click with the shutter is only 1/2 the story.  Like a movie we do post production.

It is unreasonable to expect a photographer to retouch every image.  Me personally i let a model pick out images that she likes and will retouch them.  I also give her a copy of every image i retouch for myself.

Models don't want me to post an image that makes thier ass look fat, or shows a huge zit.  I don't want models to post photos i've taken that aren't retouched.

I'm an artist not a glamour shooter, it is about creative control and building a brand name.   Right now i'm dealing with a model that has posted several shots i did of her that were not intended for the web and not retouched, or for anyone else to see.

Those photos make me look bad.   It's all about give and take and finding equity.
Giving everything away isn't equitable.

Also .. some pics might not need retouch.. is all in the way people see it.. actually

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My first shoot as a photographer, I wound up in the same predicament. But it was MY fault for not explaining to the model what to expect. I edited about 35 images and sent him the 250 shots that I'd taken.  A big mistake on my part...

l griffin wrote:
I believe making sure everything is in the model release is the best way to go. if there is a limit to how many she could get maybe show her the choices and by that she may want more and possibly pay for the others. the model is providing their service in which their expense is little to nothing it is the photographer that dishes out with printing cost and if you are old school chemical printing paper or processing cost money and yet many people want a large quantity for little or nothing.

That is why you do CD... then charge for prints..

Bryan Benoit wrote:

I personally negotiate the number of images before hand (10 to 20 depends) but always give the model the edited files of those images for her use. Web sized pics sent over email just doesn't seem to me as a fair exchange for all the work that she puts in during our session. Besides using them here or in OMP how is that going to help her much? .. what if she ever wants to use any of the images for her book (for example) to show agencies?

I guess I see a TFCD as a collaboration between photographer and model (and MUA, etc. if they are involved). And as such I think that we should ALL reap the benefits of the effort.

By helping my models I am helping myself as well. I recently got offered a 5 figures job that is directly traceable back to a print of an image done during a TFCD session.

I usually do give them prints. Just don't want to put myself in a situation where I have to deliver the prints. It cost me more to deliever the prints than that cost of the prints.

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Explain it slowly...TFP I give you ten pics
You pay ..you get ALL your pics

bang bang photo wrote:
It doesn't matter what either of you think is fair or ridiculous. What matters is that you work out all the details BEFORE the shoot, so you don't end up arguing like punks afterward.

Decide what you can live with, put it out there, and live with the results.

Paul

You may also want to discuss, prior of course, how long she may have to wait for a post production cd.  This is TFP/CD and paid work does take precedence.


Jim

Bella Sin wrote:

That is why you do CD... then charge for prints..

Still learning, thanks

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

It sounds like there was an imbalance between her expectations and yours, not that she's ungrateful or anything.  I take lessons away with each opportunity like this.  When I do a TFP shoot, I tell the model up front that I don't specify a fixed number of prints because I have no idea whether that many will "make the cut".  I will not release photos I'm not willing to put my name on.  However, I do give the model a general idea of what to expect--roughly a 5% return on the number of photos we shoot (10% if the shoot went VERY well).  I haven't had any problems as of yet with this methodology.

Bella Sin wrote:

Also .. some pics might not need retouch.. is all in the way people see it.. actually

It is a rare thing that any image   would not need some form of retouching.
Tweak the color,  fix a blemish, eliminate something distracting in the background.  There is a ton of PRE-production work that eliminates hard work in POST production but no amount of PRE prouduction can eliminate the need for POST production work.


Every photo i take isn't port worthy.  A model building a portfolio doesn't need 30 shots of her in the same outfit.  She needs 2 maybe 3 per outfit.

It's about building a brand.   Let's say i do an implied shoot with a model.  She absolutely doesn't want any nipple to show in the images.  Well i have a great image of her but a little pink nipple shows.   I post this image in my port anyway.

Why would she be upset.  Because she doesn't want her brand to be identified with   nipple in a photograph..

I don't want my brand to be identified with images that aren't retouched.  Every image of mine on the web i want my signature and seal of approval on.  Just like the model that doesn't want her nipple on the internet.

Someone that gives you every photograph even untouched ones and gives you cart blance to post them doesn't care about thier brand.

I do.

And don't even get me started on the work i do with traditional black and white and liquid light.

Cecil Sharps wrote:
Every photo i take isn't port worthy.  A model building a portfolio doesn't need 30 shots of her in the same outfit.  She needs 2 maybe 3 per outfit.

Now that sums it up perfectly.  However, I think a model needs 5-6 shots of him/her in each outfit to choose which 2-3 they want for their port.

Cecil Sharps wrote:
It is a rare thing that any image   would not need some form of retouching.
Tweak the color,  fix a blemish, eliminate something distracting in the background.  There is a ton of PRE-production work that eliminates hard work in POST production but no amount of PRE prouduction can eliminate the need for POST production work.


Every photo i take isn't port worthy.  A model building a portfolio doesn't need 30 shots of her in the same outfit.  She needs 2 maybe 3 per outfit.

It's about building a brand.   Let's say i do an implied shoot with a model.  She absolutely doesn't want any nipple to show in the images.  Well i have a great image of her but a little pink nipple shows.   I post this image in my port anyway.

Why would she be upset.  Because she doesn't want her brand to be identified with   nipple in a photograph..

I don't want my brand to be identified with images that aren't retouched.  Every image of mine on the web i want my signature and seal of approval on.  Just like the model that doesn't want her nipple on the internet.

Someone that gives you every photograph even untouched ones and gives you cart blance to post them doesn't care about thier brand.

I do.

And don't even get me started on the work i do with traditional black and white and liquid light.

I have learn that if you take care of your self as a model.. look at what you need covered  and what you need here and there you will give a photographer less work is editing.. i do have pictures that dont need editing... at all..
some always do for some reason or another.
but still if you edit a image to much it takes away from the shoot.
I mean im not a photographer and i dont fancy my self as one.. Im a tool for you to create an amazing image... Art if you will.
but still the point is that communication is key.. and i always have and will have that with my photographers

in one out fit max is 30 shoots.. and then change.. i bring every thing and the kitchen sink.. you never know what ideas you might get last second

Bella Sin wrote:
I have learn that if you take care of your self as a model.. look at what you need covered  and what you need here and there you will give a photographer less work is editing.. i do have pictures that dont need editing... at all..
some always do for some reason or another.
but still if you edit a image to much it takes away from the shoot.
I mean im not a photographer and i dont fancy my self as one.. Im a tool for you to create an amazing image... Art if you will.
but still the point is that communication is key.. and i always have and will have that with my photographers

in one out fit max is 30 shoots.. and then change.. i bring every thing and the kitchen sink.. you never know what ideas you might get last second

Your listening but not hearing. 

You can be perfect, have a great pose, killer wardrobe, the lighting can be spot on.  But the image still needs to be retouched.  Color corrected, tweaked, have the contrast played with.   There is no auto-correct button that will make a perfect image in photoshop.  In the end it requires a photographer to sit down with the image and work on it.

Even if he only spends five minutes on each image at 150 images that is 12.5 hours.

It goes back to what i was telling you about building a brand.   

A model that agreed to do implied, but nipple shows up in the image would be upset if i posted that image.  She doesn't want nipple associated with her brand.

I'm a photographer, i don't want unretouched images associated with my brand.

If i give you  a cd of 150 images, what is to stop you from posting the images i hate, posting the images i haven't retouched, posting the images i don't want to be associated with. Not a dam thing.  When a model post an un-retouched image it can lower the value of my brand.

I want to be associated with the best of my work,  not the shots that i hate.

How do we as photographer's keep models from posting un-retouched photos?  By keeping the crappy ones out of thier hands.

You can get an acceptable photograph straight from the camera.  I and most photographers that give a dam about thier brand don't want to be associated with acceptable photographs.  We want to be associated with stunning visual imagery.

Stunning visual imagery takes time to create in post production.   Not every shot has that potiential.  I spend my post production time working on the ones that do.  Would you rather have 50 shitty photos, or 5 images that knock your socks off?

Leo Chan wrote:
I usually do give them prints. Just don't want to put myself in a situation where I have to deliver the prints. It cost me more to deliever the prints than that cost of the prints.

That is why I give them the files. The 'print' in question is one she made fromt he files I gave her. I don't want to be in the printing bussiness. I did that when I started and it turned out to be a big hassle (once I made 10 large prints and then the model says those where not the ones she wanted -- even as I had it in writting from her).

If for example I agree on 20 images I let the model select half and I select the other half.

tgimaging wrote:
What does TFP stand for? Time for 'selected' prints? No. That's called TFSP
What does TFCD stand for? Time for 'selected' images on CD? No. That's called TFSCD.

Make the details plain beforehand - communicate - and agree to it, otherwise the model is being reasonable to expect a copy of each image.

Maybe i'm just old, but in the days before the internet, and digital slr's i did a few tfp's.

They didn't get 36 8x10 color glossies to put in the leather portfolio.

They got a contact sheet and a sharpie and picked out the ones they liked.  And then i dropped the negatives at the lab and printed those 4 or 5 up.

Leo Chan wrote:

man, 10 prints? You gotta be kidding. I won't give more than 5. Now, the edited image file is a different story. I usually just give the model electronic images. I do specify them in the model release.
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have spoiled models in your area? FemmeArt and I are in Philly area and we seem to have a lot of spoiled models around us.

I have found a few of the models in area to be not only spoiled ,but cocky. 

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:

That's a loaded question... I have a couple responses to that. 1) If the model is a moose, he or she shouldn't expect me to make them look like a reindeer. (this is a figurative statement for those of you that just woke up and are still a little slow)... 2) I include everything in my TFP release from how many images are given to the model, to how they will be used by me. If I give anything more to the model, it's because I am such a fantastically nice guy. If the model still isn't happy, it is because he/she had a bad attitude during the shoot, and I threw them out negating my contract with them. (that is also in my release) This only happened once, and I started including an out for me in my contract/release.

I'm sure Angela would agree with that provided all that information is known up front.  I know I'd get a little peeved if models started expecting 60 shots from one my sessions like I did for one girl.  She was an exception though.  She had fantastic skin.  We had excellent weather, and she was awesome in her posing.  I spent probably on average 7 minutes per image.  If a model wants 60 pics from one of my sessions, she's gonna have to really bring her A-game!  Otherwise, my goal is to get one really good shot from each wardrobe change.  If I can do that, I'm happy.  But otherwise, my range is anywhere from 10 to 20 images from a typical 2 to 3 hour session.  I try to remember to explain this upfront before any shoot.

The problems comes up if things have either NOT been discussed and the model's expectations are different from the photographer's or even after knowing all the details they are still unhappy.

If the expectations are different, then someone needs to compromise.  The model either needs to take what is given and move on the photographer needs to do more work.

If someone is unhappy with the results after an agreement has been decided on, that's just too bad.  You need to hold yourself to the agreement and not cry that you're not getting enough later.

KayleighAnn06 wrote:
perhaps other photographers gave her many more ...and she was thought this was custom.
she was curious? I dont know.

I know some photogs around here that give out more than 10 different prints from one shoot. More than 10! Yet I can't find a single good one out of those images. Low quality photogs tend to give out more prints because they think every shot is good. Good photog usually like only about 2 to 5 shots in a session. . . just my 2 cents.