FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Did you agree on a number prior to the shoot?  If not she is correct in negotiating for the maximum number possible.

ericphotonyc wrote:
Next time tell the model what she will receive prior to the shoot.  Put it in writing (e-mail or otherwise).

Excellent advice! The model should have been happy with the 20 images she received.  What on earth would she need with more than 20 retouched pictures anyway?

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Yep. I have a spot on my TFP release where I write in what she should expect to receive. Usually 2-3 edited images per look.

http://www.johnjebbia.com/temp/limited.doc

Under where it says compensation. I put $0, then in the line next to it I specify the number of images she wil receive.

ericphotonyc wrote:
Next time tell the model what she will receive prior to the shoot.  Put it in writing (e-mail or otherwise).

Whate HE said


I always advise in writing in advance, the number of images I will provide which is 20 to 30 images.  I also tell them in writing before the shoot that the CD will be mailed withinin 10 business days (which gives me plenty of time if I am busy) so there is nothing to dispute after the shoot.

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
Why let the model demand anything for a tfp/cd shoot? It should have all been covered in your release. She isn't paying for them, and you are doing her a favor by not charging her. She walks away with good images in her hand, and you have new photos for your portfolio...

1)  I disagree -- the release is not supposed to be a contract for the sitting.

2)  You can decide for yourself, but I think this attitude (model should be satisfied just being in the exalted presence of The Photographer) will eventually limit the photographer's ability to make exceptional images of people.  If that's how you feel, perhaps you shouldn't do TFP.

Cecil Sharps wrote:
People allways want something for nothing.
She probablly shot with several gwc that shoot nothing but jpeg's don't understand photoshop and think retouching is grabbing an ass for the second time.

Classic!

FemmeArt wrote:
I typically tell the model that I will provide around 10.  Perhaps I should add it to my release.  Even 10 is a lot for TFP.  I also model myself, and I've done shoots where I received only 2 or 3 images, but they were very good and a great addition to my port.

I've even had some models try to demand to have a cd of all of the raw images!  How ridiculous is that?

man, 10 prints? You gotta be kidding. I won't give more than 5. Now, the edited image file is a different story. I usually just give the model electronic images. I do specify them in the model release.
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have spoiled models in your area? FemmeArt and I are in Philly area and we seem to have a lot of spoiled models around us.

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I just tell the model that the ones on the cd are the best ones from the shoot and thats that.

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
Why let the model demand anything for a tfp/cd shoot? It should have all been covered in your release. She isn't paying for them, and you are doing her a favor by not charging her. She walks away with good images in her hand, and you have new photos for your portfolio...

Looknsee Photography wrote:
1)  I disagree -- the release is not supposed to be a contract for the sitting.

Right, the release isn't a contract for the sitting. However, the release is on a piece of paper. The sheet of paper may have a release on it and it may also have a contract on it. Nothing wrong with that. The word release tends to be used a little loosely around here.

Curt Burgess wrote:
The word release tends to be used a little loosely around here.

Curt, you're a master of understatement.

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Failure to tell the model beforehand what to expect leaves the model free to set their own expectations.

FemmeArt wrote:
I've even had some models try to demand to have a cd of all of the raw images!  How ridiculous is that?

Not ridiculous at all if she said that is what she wanted prior to shooting.

I think 20 edited pics was very generous of you but it would have been wise on both you and the models part to discuss compensation beforehand.

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
Why let the model demand anything for a tfp/cd shoot? It should have all been covered in your release. She isn't paying for them, and you are doing her a favor by not charging her. She walks away with good images in her hand, and you have new photos for your portfolio...

How do you figure you are doing the model a favor if she doesn't get what she wants out of the shoot?

Looknsee Photography wrote:

1)  I disagree -- the release is not supposed to be a contract for the sitting.

2)  You can decide for yourself, but I think this attitude (model should be satisfied just being in the exalted presence of The Photographer) will eventually limit the photographer's ability to make exceptional images of people.  If that's how you feel, perhaps you shouldn't do TFP.

Perhaps that came across the wrong way. I include what the model will receive from a TFP shoot in my TFP release. On occasion I will include a little extra if I feel the shoot went well. This keeps models coming back to me. What I don't do is negotiate after the sitting. I do all this beforehand.

Curt Burgess wrote:

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
Why let the model demand anything for a tfp/cd shoot? It should have all been covered in your release. She isn't paying for them, and you are doing her a favor by not charging her. She walks away with good images in her hand, and you have new photos for your portfolio...

Right, the release isn't a contract for the sitting. However, the release is on a piece of paper. The sheet of paper may have a release on it and it may also have a contract on it. Nothing wrong with that. The word release tends to be used a little loosely around here.

Agreed. Release does intend to be used loosely around here.

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Jus Chocolate wrote:
20 retouched photos for free,
? She's pretty ungrateful,I wish I got that at a tfcd/p shoot most photographers may do like 5,she's nutts foreal

not quite "for free".. if they are good images it had lots to do with the effort put in by the model (wait.. I sound like a model)... ;o)

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Classic!

Thanks i'm here all weekend with shows at 3:00, 5:00 and 7:00

Will be selling my new cd "how to be a smartass" at the door.

angela camp wrote:

How do you figure you are doing the model a favor if she doesn't get what she wants out of the shoot?

That's a loaded question... I have a couple responses to that. 1) If the model is a moose, he or she shouldn't expect me to make them look like a reindeer. (this is a figurative statement for those of you that just woke up and are still a little slow)... 2) I include everything in my TFP release from how many images are given to the model, to how they will be used by me. If I give anything more to the model, it's because I am such a fantastically nice guy. If the model still isn't happy, it is because he/she had a bad attitude during the shoot, and I threw them out negating my contract with them. (that is also in my release) This only happened once, and I started including an out for me in my contract/release.

Michael Reyes wrote:
Twenty retouched photos is plenty generous, even for TFP so I think that you are good there You may want to ask what she wants with the extra photos. If the model is learning and wants to see what angles and poses work for her, would you be willing to share some of those shots as a low-resolution learning tool? Just make sure that she understands that they are not for posting.

I agree...

FemmeArt wrote:
I recently did a TFP shoot with a model.  I provided her with 20 retouched images--good ones.  Although the model was very happy with the images, she wrote and had the nerve to say, "There were only 20 edited pics on the cd.  Where are the rest of the pics?"

I typically give no more than 10 edited images from a TFP.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

a model needs a photographer and the photographer needs a model....
we have as much right as you to have all the images.
but there is also the route i take..
I buy all hard copies from you and ref you at least 10 paying customers.
that way you have made some money..
Also make sure if you have a talk with the model and tell her this is what you are getting and why?
also make sure you understand this person is using this pictures for port or other.
Make sure that you tell them in you TFP/CD area what you offer them so you dont have a problem.
I have work both TFP and Paid work.
But i dont see the point when the work is simple to have pay.. i rather have images.

but sit down with the model and offer her the shoots she likes.. maybe that way she will be happy like that.

Bella Sin wrote:

a model needs a photographer and the photographer needs a model....
we have as much right as you to have all the images.
but there is also the route i take..
I buy all hard copies from you and ref you at least 10 paying customers.
that way you have made some money..

wish the rest of the "models" in MM reads this message.

Cecil Sharps wrote:
People allways want something for nothing.

PerceptionZ Studio wrote:
She isn't paying for them, and you are doing her a favor by not charging her.

Sorry guys, I take great exception these statements and that, to me, seems to be the root of this.  She isn't getting something for nothing, she made a trade.  She agreed to model for free and the photographer agreed to give her prints.  A model could just as easily say that the photographer got something for nothing.  Both people contribute.

I have no problem with the photographer giving the model twenty retouched images.  Twenty good images from a shoot is an accomplishment, although there is some argument that the images the photographer took might not be the ones the model wanted.

Those are all esoteric arguments though.  The problem here, and the only problem here, was that the number (and who chose the images), wasn't agreed to in advance.  It has been said before.  Just discuss everything and agree to it before you shoot and none of these issues come up!  It is really simple.

Leo Chan wrote:

man, 10 prints? You gotta be kidding. I won't give more than 5. Now, the edited image file is a different story. I usually just give the model electronic images. I do specify them in the model release.
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have spoiled models in your area? FemmeArt and I are in Philly area and we seem to have a lot of spoiled models around us.

I personally negotiate the number of images before hand (10 to 20 depends) but always give the model the edited files of those images for her use. Web sized pics sent over email just doesn't seem to me as a fair exchange for all the work that she puts in during our session. Besides using them here or in OMP how is that going to help her much? .. what if she ever wants to use any of the images for her book (for example) to show agencies?

I guess I see a TFCD as a collaboration between photographer and model (and MUA, etc. if they are involved). And as such I think that we should ALL reap the benefits of the effort.

By helping my models I am helping myself as well. I recently got offered a 5 figures job that is directly traceable back to a print of an image done during a TFCD session.

Leo Chan wrote:

wish the rest of the "models" in MM reads this message.

Hey you need to make money as much as i do.. I do this for fun do..
I like to know my photographers get people coming in cus of me .. with some i have gone as far as taking some cards made with the image that he shoot and sending them in like that so they know i sent them ..

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Cecil Sharps wrote:
People allways want something for nothing.

Sorry guys, I take great exception these statements and that, to me, seems to be the root of this.  She isn't getting something for nothing, she made a trade.  She agreed to model for free and the photographer agreed to give her prints.  A model could just as easily say that the photographer got something for nothing.  Both people contribute.

I have no problem with the photographer giving the model twenty retouched images.  Twenty good images from a shoot is an accomplishment, although there is some argument that the images the photographer took might not be the ones the model wanted.

Those are all esoteric arguments though.  The problem here, and the only problem here, was that the number (and who chose the images), wasn't agreed to in advance.  It has been said before.  Just discuss everything and agree to it before you shoot and none of these issues come up!  It is really simple.

I think you should sit down and make sure they know what you are doing.. Is importaint to be in the same page

Bella Sin wrote:

a model needs a photographer and the photographer needs a model....
we have as much right as you to have all the images.
but there is also the route i take..
I buy all hard copies from you and ref you at least 10 paying customers.
that way you have made some money..

But doesn't "buying" the hard copies at a TFP "Time For Prints" shoot eliminate the purpose of TFP? Let's explore this a little...

The whole idea of TFP is that no money changes hands.  It is a fair and equal trade.  Models have obvious reasons for shooting TFP; practice infront of the camera and images to build a portfolio with.  Photographers have various reasons that range from hobby, to testing new equipment or techniques, learning photography, testing for future project use, or simply because they just enjoy photography or wish to shoot a specific look, style, concept, or person.