Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Something I'm beginning to notice when reading a photogs profile :
* A full model release is required, no exceptions, signed before the shoot starts.
The thought of that makes me nervous,
I understand you should never shoot with someone unless you feel comfortable, but its possible for miscommunication/the shoot to fall apart
So, you go to shoot
Everything seems fine at first,
An argument/whatever happens
The shoot takes a turn for the worst
We (model) storms out
Photog has unlimited use of photos/can do whatever the hell he/she wants.
So like...?
This caused me to add the clause to my profile
That model release must be emailed BEFORE the shoot,
So that I can read it fully, and make sure no funny biz
Too many times I've gotten to a shoot, and had one presented to me, outta nowhere, then have the photog breathing down my neck as I try to understand the legal jargon.
So photogs, why?
Models, do ya find it strange?
P.s An interesting thing I've noted, I've seen it posted almost always on nude photogs profiles. Is curious..
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Your concerns have also worked in reverse, along with other stunts you haven't mentioned. Burn me twice, shame on me.
ID then release gets taken care of in that order, prior to starting.
On occasion I forget....pretty rare.
If anyone asks, no problem sending a copy ahead of time.
AFAIC about a model "storming out", that's on them.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Your concerns have also worked in reverse, along with other stunts you haven't mentioned. Burn me twice, shame on me.
ID then release gets taken care of in that order, prior to starting.
On occasion I forget....pretty rare.
If anyone asks, no problem sending a copy ahead of time.
AFAIC about a model "storming out", that's on them. Worked in reverse?
And burned how?
And the storming out was in regards to if the photog turned out to be a douche.
Its like, you can be a douche
And use the photos willy nilly?
Why not sign at the end of the shoot?
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Well there is always the chance that the release is signed up front, then upskirt or voyeur shots are taken, then the "photographer" demands money to not publish those shots. Andrew Thomas Evans www.andrewthomasevans.com
Photographer
DeVaul Photography
Posts: 702
Chagrin Falls, Ohio, US
Jupiter, it's not always someone who's trying to take advantage. Usually the photographer is just trying to protect himself/herself. If I shoot you and one of the images is really great and I put it on my commercial website, it now becomes an image used for commercial purposes...selling DeVaul Photography. I've never in my life had a model complain that I put one of the images on my website, but I guess it could happen. The same could be said about a model using an image I shot of her and using it for commercial purposes...I still own the copyrights to the image, and I wouldn't have a problem with the model using the shot to promote themselves. On the other hand, if a model gave one of my images to Clairol and they used it in an add without my permission, I'd be talking to my lawyer. Like I said, usually the photographer will have the model sign a release to protect themselves, not to screw over the model.
I do a lot of shooting people and putting them in a composite image with the possibility of the final shot being used as a stock image. The release explains that if the image is used for such purposes, the model is entitled to 10% of my fee. I do explain this while messaging the model.
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3281
Bath, England, United Kingdom
The most likely reason is that it's very easy to forget to do it at the end of the shoot.
Also, many photographers like to check ID, take a photo of the model holding her ID and/or signing the model release and 2257 forms (if applicable) as well. Those things definitely need to be done before the shoot starts so it makes sense to sign the model release then too.
Just my $0.02 etc. etc.
Photographer
Ash Photographic
Posts: 378
Cirencester, England, United Kingdom
Terry Richardson gets his models to sign the release BEFORE the shoot. So it must be a good idea, right?  Ash.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Well there is always the chance that the release is signed up front, then upskirt or voyeur shots are taken, then the "photographer" demands money to not publish those shots.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com Well shit.
Wonderful.
Photographer
David Pollack
Posts: 1933
Wilmington, Delaware, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Something I'm beginning to notice when reading a photogs profile :
* A full model release is required, no exceptions, signed before the shoot starts.
The thought of that makes me nervous,
I understand you should never shoot with someone unless you feel comfortable, but its possible for miscommunication/the shoot to fall apart
So, you go to shoot
Everything seems fine at first,
An argument/whatever happens
The shoot takes a turn for the worst
We (model) storms out
Photog has unlimited use of photos/can do whatever the hell he/she wants.
So like...?
This caused me to add the clause to my profile
That model release must be emailed BEFORE the shoot,
So that I can read it fully, and make sure no funny biz
Too many times I've gotten to a shoot, and had one presented to me, outta nowhere, then have the photog breathing down my neck as I try to understand the legal jargon.
So photogs, why?
Models, do ya find it strange?
P.s An interesting thing I've noted, I've seen it posted almost always on nude photogs profiles. Is curious.. Before a single photo is taken. PERIOD. Then there are no questions or problems.
Photographer
Mirror With A Memory
Posts: 290
New York, New York, US
Emailing a copy ahead of time for review makes things easier on set. ID check, Sign, and Shoot often works fine.
Photographer
dgold
Posts: 10302
Pawtucket, Rhode Island, US
David Pollack wrote:
Before a single photo is taken. PERIOD. Then there are no questions or problems. Yup...
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
OP: Sounds like you may have simply had a bad shoot experience at some point. However, id's should be checked, releases signed..etc. before the shoot starts. This is a legality requirement to verify that the model is of age pertaining to nudity as you mention.
As for the idea of model and photographer "getting in an argument" as you stated, this should be avoided if you do your homework to check references, google the photographer..etc. prior to the shoot to find out what they are about. This will help to avoid arguments or other issues.
Also, any photographer that is on the up and up should have no problems sending a copy of the release that they require to anyone prior to the shoot.
good luck!
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
David Pollack wrote:
Before a single photo is taken. PERIOD. Then there are no questions or problems. Why do you find that necessary?
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Charlie-CNP wrote:
OP: Sounds like you may have simply had a bad shoot experience at some point. However, id's should be checked, releases signed..etc. before the shoot starts. This is a legality requirement to verify that the model is of age pertaining to nudity as you mention.
As for the idea of model and photographer "getting in an argument" as you stated, this should be avoided if you do your homework to check references, google the photographer..etc. prior to the shoot to find out what they are about. This will help to avoid arguments or other issues.
Also, any photographer that is on the up and up should have no problems sending a copy of the release that they require to anyone prior to the shoot.
good luck! Besides the annoying random releases
I've been fortunate enough to have only good experiences.
And checking refrences and all is important and I always do it
But that doesn't really have a reflection on how the photog will act/interact with every single model/person.
So you knowww
Photographer
dgold
Posts: 10302
Pawtucket, Rhode Island, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Why do you find that necessary? ...contracts are usually signed prior to the action.
Simple.
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Why do you find that necessary? See my response above. If you are shooting nudes, it is more so important than not to do everything prior to the shoot.
Photographer
eybdoog
Posts: 2647
New York, New York, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Besides the annoying random releases
I've been fortunate enough to have only good experiences.
And checking refrences and all is important and I always do it
But that doesn't really have a reflection on how the photog will act/interact with every single model/person.
So you knowww That is great to hear. However, when you are working long enough, you will learn how to interpret others feedback about certain folks that they have worked with to avoid bad interactions. Clear communication with the photographer prior to the shoot is key also. That way all expectations and interactions are laid out in advance for the day of the shoot.
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4852
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Requesting to see a copy of the release ahead of time is reasonable.
I prefer to have the release signed at the beginning of the shoot and I'll often hand it to the model to read while in makeup, but just as often I forget and don't get around to it until the end of the shoot.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Charlie-CNP wrote:
See my response above. If you are shooting nudes, it is more so important than not to do everything prior to the shoot. I understand the I.D part,
But release before geeting to the nudez causes me to feel some slight discomfort
Was just curious.
Wish more models would weigh in on this
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Well shit.
Wonderful. Learning to separate the wheat from the chaff in the forums is a good thing. 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Worked in reverse?
And burned how?
And the storming out was in regards to if the photog turned out to be a douche.
Its like, you can be a douche
And use the photos willy nilly?
Why not sign at the end of the shoot? Meaning the model plays games, finds an "excuse" to leave which is utter BS, oh I'm sorry I forgot to bring my DL (though they drove to the shoot) or model is just garden variety batshit crazy.
Burned means I just shot 2-4 hours, without a signed release.
Also, heaven forbid, a model could have a serious true emergency at home, collapses on the set, etc. which means they are leaving immediately. Whatever work was done before that goes south.
If storming out for reasons of safety or such, yeah leave.
In your circumstance, depends on your definition of douche. I worked for many douche bags over the years....but I still had a job to do.
Bottom line, that's the way I'm going to work, based on doing hundreds, perhaps a thousand shoots in the last 14 yrs. You would probably find a few folks who would go your way, I'd suspect you'd find more that wouldn't
Photographer
IrisSwope
Posts: 14857
Dallas, Texas, US
I'd think that signing at the beginning or end should be fine.
Unless it's a large production, where there's 12 models some of whom may leave at different times.
However, I'd be really concerned if someone feels that running out of a shoot half way thru is a good plan. If that happens alot, there's a bigger problem.
Photographer
dgold
Posts: 10302
Pawtucket, Rhode Island, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Meaning the model plays games, finds an "excuse" to leave which is utter BS, oh I'm sorry I forgot to bring my DL (though they drove to the shoot) or model is just garden variety batshit crazy.
Burned means I just shot 2-4 hours, without a signed release.
Also, heaven forbid, a model could have a serious true emergency at home, collapses on the set, etc. which means they are leaving immediately. Whatever work was done before that goes south.
If storming out for reasons of safety or such, yeah leave.
In your circumstance, depends on your definition of douche. I worked for many douche bags over the years....but I still had a job to do.
Bottom line, that's the way I'm going to work, based on doing hundreds, perhaps a thousand shoots in the last 14 yrs. You would probably find a few folks who would go your way, I'd suspect you'd find more that wouldn't WORD.
Photographer
IrisSwope
Posts: 14857
Dallas, Texas, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
I understand the I.D part,
But release before geeting to the nudez causes me to feel some slight discomfort
Was just curious.
Wish more models would weigh in on this Question, if you decided you didn't like the nudes, or if you didn't get to go through them, and approve them, would you not sign the release? If so, that is probably why they want you to sign it up front.
It makes sense as a model, to reserve the right to refuse to sign it, it doesn't make sense as a photographer.
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
I've almost always signed them at the end, but would have no problem signing them at the beginning because I only work with photographers I trust.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Cherrystone wrote:
Meaning the model plays games, finds an "excuse" to leave which is utter BS, oh I'm sorry I forgot to bring my DL (though they drove to the shoot) or model is just garden variety batshit crazy.
Burned means I just shot 2-4 hours, without a signed release.
Also, heaven forbid, a model could have a serious true emergency at home, collapses on the set, etc. which means they are leaving immediately. Whatever work was done before that goes south.
If storming out for reasons of safety or such, yeah leave.
In your circumstance, depends on your definition of douche. I worked for many douche bags over the years....but I still had a job to do.
Bottom line, that's the way I'm going to work, based on doing hundreds, perhaps a thousand shoots in the last 14 yrs. You would probably find a few folks who would go your way, I'd suspect you'd find more that wouldn't If the model had a serious accident,
Or the release was forgotten,
But the shoot went well beforehand, I'd imagine they wouldn't have a problem sending/signing eh?
As to your crazy models
References/ check out how they've worked with others?
Could be a casting problem
Eh.
So, legal contract before you even pick up the camera,
Whats the point in trusting that the photog will remain respectful throughout the shoot, if he won't trust that I'm not batshit crazy?
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
I sign releases at the end of a shoot. I can only think of 1 photographer I've ever worked with that wanted the release signed at the beginning.
For paid shoots- I would have no problem signing the release at the beginning of the shoot, if the photographer also wants to pay me at the beginning. The release gets signed when I get paid, which always seems to be at the end of a session.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
IrisSwope wrote:
Question, if you decided you didn't like the nudes, or if you didn't get to go through them, and approve them, would you not sign the release? If so, that is probably why they want you to sign it up front.
It makes sense as a model, to reserve the right to refuse to sign it, it doesn't make sense as a photographer. Antoher complicated problem with the release thingie,
Before every shoot I go over every detail, set boundaries, ect
Awesome eh?
Meet up, photog seems fine, sign release, start shooting nudes.
We had agreed not to do pink showing
Photog is a sneaky bastard,
Gets pink shots
May even act cocky/flippant with what he's doing
Then...what?
Nothing, I signed a legally-binding contract before we started
Go home
Cry
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
I sign releases at the end of a shoot. I can only think of 1 photographer I've ever worked with that wanted the release signed at the beginning.
For paid shoots- I would have no problem signing the release at the beginning of the shoot, if the photographer also wants to pay me at the beginning. The release gets signed when I get paid. Whoa I like that.
Release gets signed when I get paid
A new policy in the making maybuh.
Photographer
IrisSwope
Posts: 14857
Dallas, Texas, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Antoher complicated problem with the release thingie,
Before every shoot I go over every detail, set boundaries, ect
Awesome eh?
Meet up, photog seems fine, sign release, start shooting nudes.
We had agreed not to do pink showing
Photog is a sneaky bastard,
Gets pink shots
May even act cocky/flippant with what he's doing
Then...what?
Nothing, I signed a legally-binding contract before we started
Go home
Cry Well, he's got the pictures whether or not you sign the release. He can post them pretty much wherever, a release pretty much just says whether or not he can sell them, or use them for profit.
I see your point, I'm not sure what the answer would be.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
If the model had a serious accident,
Or the release was forgotten,
But the shoot went well beforehand, I'd magine they wouldn't have a problem sending/signing eh?
As to your crazy models
References/ check out how they've worked with others?
Could be a casting problem
Eh.
So, legal contract before you even pick up the camera,
Whats the point in trusting that the photog will remain respectful throughout the shoot, if he won't trust that I'm not batshit crazy? One would think they wouldn't have a problem but.....I been around the block enough.
Do you think I have regular batshits around? 
There are only a few folks I trust for an honest reference. Expecting a straight reference from a stranger in our little system is an exercise in futility. There are plenty of other ways to deduce things.
Negative occurrences have been rare....but 3-4 times is enough.
My release is not a contract. Never has been, never will be.
But I digress, a lot of that is secondary. You asked and I gave you reasons why.
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Well shit.
Wonderful. Well, just know that when a release is signed that the cat is out of the bag and that if you don't want some pictures to be taken you need to stop that up front as once they are shot there is no way to get them back - unless the photographer is "nice" enough to sell them to you later.
I'm more a fan of being picky, talking to who you're thinking about shooting with, and that if it's a total test shoot to sign the release later once the images can be reviewed. Any shots you don't approve of before hand (like showing your lady parts) could easily be called out on the release as shots you don't approve of.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Jupiter Red wrote:
Antoher complicated problem with the release thingie,
Before every shoot I go over every detail, set boundaries, ect
Awesome eh?
Meet up, photog seems fine, sign release, start shooting nudes.
We had agreed not to do pink showing
Photog is a sneaky bastard,
Gets pink shots
May even act cocky/flippant with what he's doing
Then...what?
Nothing, I signed a legally-binding contract before we started
Go home
Cry How can someone get pink, if it isn't displayed?
Pose within your limits, you won't have a problem.
Do you have a problem "checking references"?
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Cherrystone wrote:
How can someone get pink, if it isn't displayed?
Pose within your limits, you won't have a problem. Accidents happen when models are changing or when clothing shifts, or a range of reasons that aren't totally the models fault. If that happens when a release is signed then the photographer owns those shots.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Accidents happen when models are changing or when clothing shifts, or a range of reasons that aren't totally the models fault. If that happens when a release is signed then the photographer owns those shots.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com That's why you work with photographers you trust enough not to do scumbaggy shit like that.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Accidents happen when models are changing or when clothing shifts, or a range of reasons that aren't totally the models fault. If that happens when a release is signed then the photographer owns those shots.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com C'mon, can't you fear monger any better than that?
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Alabaster Crowley wrote:
That's why you work with photographers you trust enough not to do scumbaggy shit like that. Correct, other than some people who are accused of scumbaggy shit are sometimes the ones most recommended (for a while) by others. All they need to do is give a great sales pitch and sound like they know what they are talking about.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Cherrystone wrote:
C'mon, can't you fear monger any better than that? Tis' not fear mongering,
It happens, and argues the point I'm making
Photographer
Mark Reeder
Posts: 627
Huntsville, Ontario, Canada
Signing before shooting is best and emailing it before the shoot date helps make sure everything is clear before anyone's time gets wasted. I wouldn't want to feel rushed reading over something like that on the spot either. It's good to make everything easy.
Although signing before or after doesn't really matter, as long as it gets signed.
Model
Jupiter Red
Posts: 521
New York, New York, US
Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Correct, other than some people who are accused of scumbaggy shit are sometimes the ones most recommended (for a while) by others. All they need to do is give a great sales pitch and sound like they know what they are talking about.
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com I agree with the trust part!
And I do that as best I can.
BUT OMG YES,
SOME PHOTOGS BE SHIT TALKING AND EVERYONE BELIEVES THEM
when I first started, I was promised the sky, and all the stars in it (if i got nakey of course)
Thankfully my cynical nature saved me
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