Jupiter Red  wrote:
Tis' not fear mongering,
It happens, and argues the point I'm making

Well, and with a signed release it could easily happen and there isn't a thing a model could do about it other than meet the persons demands.


I'm not saying releases are bad, or that people who ask for them up front are evil or out to make a quick buck, just that there can be consequences to signing a release.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Jupiter Red  wrote:
Antoher complicated problem with the release thingie,
Before every shoot I go over every detail, set boundaries, ect
Awesome eh?
Meet up, photog seems fine, sign release, start shooting nudes.
We had agreed not to do pink showing
Photog is a sneaky bastard,
Gets pink shots
May even act cocky/flippant with what he's doing
Then...what?
Nothing, I signed a legally-binding contract before we started
Go home
Cry

Only work with people you trust.  There's never a 100% guarantee that a photographer isn't going to post something you're not comfortable with, but you can take steps to ensure it's very unlikely.

1.)  Check references.
2.)  Look at the photographers work.  Are you comfortable with the most explicit shot in their portfolio?  If you aren't, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to post something explicit against your will, but if they *do* post explicit work, it makes it more likely.  Keep that in mind during the shoot, and when you're communicating with them.
3.)  If you find yourself in a situation during a shoot where you're not completely trusting a photographer, watch your poses and transitions while shooting.  Try not to spread your legs, bend over etc.  If they ask for a specific pose you're not comfortable with, just say no. 

If you don't feel comfortable signing a release at the beginning of a shoot, don't.  Go with your gut.  For paid shoots, I would recommend always signing the release at the time of payment.

David Pollack wrote:

Before a single photo is taken. PERIOD.  Then there are no questions or problems.

Yes sir

Jupiter Red  wrote:

Cherrystone wrote:
Meaning the model plays games, finds an "excuse" to leave which is utter BS, oh I'm sorry I forgot to bring my DL (though they drove to the shoot) or model is just garden variety batshit crazy.

Burned means I just shot 2-4 hours, without a signed release.

Also, heaven forbid, a model could have a serious true emergency at home, collapses on the set, etc. which means they are leaving immediately. Whatever work was done before that goes south.

If storming out for reasons of safety or such, yeah leave.
In your circumstance, depends on your definition of douche. I worked for many douche bags over the years....but I still had a job to do.

Bottom line, that's the way I'm going to work, based on doing hundreds,
As to your crazy models
References/ check out how they've worked with others?
Could be a casting problem
Eh.

So, legal contract before you even pick up the camera,
Whats the point in trusting that the photog will remain respectful throughout the shoot, if he won't trust that I'm not batshit crazy?

Or it could be a  a numbers issue.

Why waste hours shooting if someone isn't going to sign the release.

Upskirt and all that other crap is not an issue for me -- funny that some of the people bringing up wild cards like that are the same ones who defend TR ( just saying it's a little like talking out of both sides of your mouth).

IDK I don't shoot that kind of content but if I am shooting work that requires a release we get the paperwork out of the way first.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Only work with people you trust.  There's never a 100% guarantee that a photographer isn't going to post something you're not comfortable with, but you can take steps to ensure it's very unlikely.

1.)  Check references.
2.)  Look at the photographers work.  Are you comfortable with the most explicit shot in their portfolio?  If you aren't, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to post something explicit against your will, but if they *do* post explicit work, it makes it more likely.  Keep that in mind during the shoot, and when you're communicating with them.
3.)  If you find yourself in a situation during a shoot where you're not completely trusting a photographer, watch your poses and transitions while shooting.  Try not to spread your legs, bend over etc.  If they ask for a specific pose you're not comfortable with, just say no. 

If you don't feel comfortable signing a release at the beginning of a shoot, don't.  Go with your gut.  For paid shoots, I would recommend always signing the release at the time of payment.

QFT

Though for commercial shoots things are a little different. I realize we are talking MM land here.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

Only work with people you trust.  There's never a 100% guarantee that a photographer isn't going to post something you're not comfortable with, but you can take steps to ensure it's very unlikely.

1.)  Check references.
2.)  Look at the photographers work.  Are you comfortable with the most explicit shot in their portfolio?  If you aren't, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to post something explicit against your will, but if they *do* post explicit work, it makes it more likely.  Keep that in mind during the shoot, and when you're communicating with them.
3.)  If you find yourself in a situation during a shoot where you're not completely trusting a photographer, watch your poses and transitions while shooting.  Try not to spread your legs, bend over etc.  If they ask for a specific pose you're not comfortable with, just say no. 

If you don't feel comfortable signing a release at the beginning of a shoot, don't.  Go with your gut.  For paid shoots, I would recommend always signing the release at the time of payment.

Lovely advice,
Thank you
I'll fer sure keep this in mind.
And I actually had that happen to me,
After the shoot, photog flipped his shit
I was so so sooooo thankful I was very careful about my posing/hand placement
Dude didn't get shit.

KungPaoChic wrote:

QFT

Though for commercial shoots things are a little different. I realize we are talking MM land here.

How does commercial land make the suggestions different?
I'm curious to know

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Well, just know that when a release is signed that the cat is out of the bag and that if you don't want some pictures to be taken you need to stop that up front as once they are shot there is no way to get them back - unless the photographer is "nice" enough to sell them to you later.

I'm more a fan of being picky, talking to who you're thinking about shooting with, and that if it's a total test shoot to sign the release later once the images can be reviewed. Any shots you don't approve of before hand (like showing your lady parts) could easily be called out on the release as shots you don't approve of.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

This is just nuts.
First: Models, only shoot with reputable photographers - often times that means passing on the easy-money dubious ones throw at you.

Second: Who's reviewing all the images at the end of the shoot before the paperwork is completed. Not me, I can tell you. And the majority of the people that are shooting at anything other than beginner-intermediate hobbiest level, aren't doing that either.
Everyone is exhausted at the end of the shoot and want to pack up and go home. No one wants to hang around and review 100s of images and then custom-craft the release based on which ones the model approves.
Why/How do people pull this kind of thing out of their *** ??!!??

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Only work with people you trust.  There's never a 100% guarantee that a photographer isn't going to post something you're not comfortable with, but you can take steps to ensure it's very unlikely.

1.)  Check references.
2.)  Look at the photographers work.  Are you comfortable with the most explicit shot in their portfolio?  If you aren't, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to post something explicit against your will, but if they *do* post explicit work, it makes it more likely.  Keep that in mind during the shoot, and when you're communicating with them.
3.)  If you find yourself in a situation during a shoot where you're not completely trusting a photographer, watch your poses and transitions while shooting.  Try not to spread your legs, bend over etc.  If they ask for a specific pose you're not comfortable with, just say no. 

If you don't feel comfortable signing a release at the beginning of a shoot, don't.  Go with your gut.  For paid shoots, I would recommend always signing the release at the time of payment.

+1


And trust can come easily too, just depends on communication.

I don't mean at all to be a downer about signing a release or anything. Just that, again, a lot of rights are given up with a release and they shouldn't be taken as lightly as they are.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Jupiter Red  wrote:

How does commercial land make the suggestions different?
I'm curious to know

It means it depends on the terms. For agency work you don't get paid the same day. You will sign a release.

For any commercial work a release will be signed. When I do production work for one company in particular I don't get paid until 30 days after my invoice is submitted. ( I am not hiring models for that company though -- it's corporate work)

and finally it means MM is different. No matter what anyone says MM is not " the industry" -- not saying, good, bad or indifferent. Just saying it's not the same.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
This is just nuts.
First: Models, only shoot with reputable photographers - often times that means passing on the easy-money dubious ones throw at you.

Second: Who's reviewing all the images at the end of the shoot before the paperwork is completed. Not me, I can tell you. And the majority of the people that are doing this at anything other than beginner-intermediate hobbiest level, aren't doing that either.
Everyone is exhausted at the end of the shoot and want to pack up and go home. No one wants to hang around and review 100s of images and then custom-craft the release based on which ones the model approves.
Why/How do people pull this kind of thing out of their *** ??!!??

I review all the shots I do for clients at the end of the shoot, mostly to cover my ass in that they approve of what we've done so I can get paid and not deal with "oh I wished we did this" type of stuff.

I don't do that for test shoots, but just saying that if some stuff that was shot goes against what was talked about, and if a release wasn't signed, then the model could have some recourse to have those images deleted or not used. Not saying that happens all the time.

As far as the other side of my post, there have been cases where "photographers" "sell" the images back to models after they are taken, and some of those cases involved "agencies" or at least some of the stuff a person can read about online. The world doesn't just smell like roses and is all milk and honey.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
This is just nuts.
First: Models, only shoot with reputable photographers - often times that means passing on the easy-money dubious ones throw at you.

Second: Who's reviewing all the images at the end of the shoot before the paperwork is completed. Not me, I can tell you. And the majority of the people that are shooting at anything other than beginner-intermediate hobbiest level, aren't doing that either.
Everyone is exhausted at the end of the shoot and want to pack up and go home. No one wants to hang around and review 100s of images and then custom-craft the release based on which ones the model approves.
Why/How do people pull this kind of thing out of their *** ??!!??

lol

KungPaoChic wrote:
QFT

Though for commercial shoots things are a little different. I realize we are talking MM land here.

Jupiter Red  wrote:
How does commercial land make the suggestions different?
I'm curious to know

For commercial work, the client (Company Q) is hiring the talent, photographer, etc. and the model signs a full release so that the images may be used for advertising of Company Q's products or services. (basically)

Jupiter Red  wrote:

Tis' not fear mongering,
It happens, and argues the point I'm making

Trust me....when it comes to him, he is just using that as an excuse for his regular MO.

Another Italian Guy wrote:
The most likely reason is that it's very easy to forget to do it at the end of the shoot.

Also, many photographers like to check ID, take a photo of the model holding her ID and/or signing the model release and 2257 forms (if applicable) as well. Those things definitely need to be done before the shoot starts so it makes sense to sign the model release then too.





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

+1 before always no exceptions and every responsible photographer needs to make sure of your age, why would anyone waste time/money taking photographs if they are not going to be used

DAVISICON wrote:

+1 before always no exceptions and every responsible photographer needs to make sure of your age,why would anyone waste time/money taking photographs if they are not going to be used

I suppose it depends on your definition of "used."  I'm surprised by how many photographers don't have me sign a release, even for paid shoots.  I guess if the intention is only to use the images for their portfolio, then it doesn't matter much.

I've also had photographers contact me days/weeks/months after a shoot to sign a release that they forgot to have me sign on the day of the shoot.  I always do it, no problem, and I think most reasonable models would.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

I suppose it depends on your definition of "used."  I'm surprised by how many photographers don't have me sign a release, even for paid shoots.  I guess if the intention is only to use the images for their portfolio, then it doesn't matter much.

I've also had photographers contact me days/weeks/months after a shoot to sign a release that they forgot to have me sign on the day of the shoot.  I always do it, no problem, and I think most reasonable models would.

That's risky IMO

Not everyone has your integrity or professionalism -- though I think it would be the photographer's fault for not getting the release the day of the shoot.

MelissaAnn  wrote:
I suppose it depends on your definition of "used."  I'm surprised by how many photographers don't have me sign a release, even for paid shoots.  I guess if the intention is only to use the images for their portfolio, then it doesn't matter much.

It depends on what state you're shooting in and what the images are going to be used for. Here in MN I really don't need a formal release for shots going to my port, emails work fine for my use. This isn't because I'm not "professional" just that it's not needed and my use won't require it.

Others have different requirements and needs.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

KungPaoChic wrote:

That's risky IMO

Not everyone has your integrity or professionalism -- though I think it would be the photographer's fault for not getting the release the day of the shoot.

Agreed.  I'm definitely not suggesting that photographers shouldn't require signed releases, just pointing out that not all of them do.

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
It depends on what state you're shooting in and what the images are going to be used for. Here in MN I really don't need a formal release for shots going to my port, emails work fine for my use. This isn't because I'm not "professional" just that it's not needed and my use won't require it.

Others have different requirements and needs.


Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Oh, I totally understand that it's not always necessary.  From my perspective (as a model) I would just be paranoid, and always want a signed release (if I were a photographer) just in case.

Jupiter Red  wrote:
Something I'm beginning to notice when reading a photogs profile :
* A full model release is required, no exceptions, signed before the shoot starts.

The thought of that makes me nervous,
I understand you should never shoot with someone unless you feel comfortable, but its possible for miscommunication/the shoot to fall apart
So, you go to shoot
Everything seems fine at first,
An argument/whatever happens
The shoot takes a turn for the worst
We (model) storms out
Photog has unlimited use of photos/can do whatever the hell he/she wants.
So like...?

This caused me to add the clause to my profile
That model release must be emailed BEFORE the shoot,
So that I can read it fully, and make sure no funny biz

Too many times I've gotten to a shoot, and had one presented to me, outta nowhere, then have the photog breathing down my neck as I try to understand the legal jargon.

So photogs, why?
Models, do ya find it strange?

P.s An interesting thing I've noted, I've seen it posted almost always on nude photogs profiles. Is curious..

If you shoot with me, you'll not only execute a models release, but will execute a usage license agreement.  No modifications will be allowed.

Don't want to sign either or both.....   Hit the door.

joeyk wrote:
After. Period. There's  nothing to agree to before the shoot.

I've had shoots that had three different release, depending on content.

Anyone that demands the release be signed first, or no shoot, shame on you.

OK, shame on me then.  No release prior to the shoot.   No shoot.

joeyk wrote:
After. Period. There's  nothing to agree to before the shoot.

I've had shoots that had three different release, depending on content.

Anyone that demands the release be signed first, or no shoot, shame on you.

Bad Advice from you shame on you..........., signing/age verification before is industry standard, by casting doubt, you just helped a lot of models lose work!    .02 cents

Photos by EWP-Savannah wrote:

If you shoot with me, you'll not only execute a models release, but will execute a usage license agreement.  No modifications will be allowed.

Don't want to sign either or both.....   Hit the door.

Aha damn,
I'm really broken up about that.
A usage license agreement..
Heaven help us all

Jupiter Red  wrote:

Aha damn,
I'm really broken up about that.
A usage license agreement..
Heaven help us all

Usage license agreement -- I write those too for commercial work but I don't really think you  need to worry about that.

Photos by EWP-Savannah wrote:
OK, shame on me then.  No release prior to the shoot.   No shoot.

IMHO, seriously, shame on you. How can you justify having a model giving you release to images as yet untaken?

Laura UnBound wrote:
It's shitty that you're expected to sign away your rights to something that doesn't even exist yet, but if your overall screening process works, it won't be a huge problem for you. I think in the hundreds of shoots I've done, I've only been truly disgusted at what someone shot without me knowing/realizing and posted less than five times. And they're not getting a ton of traffic to their pages and I just hid them in my credited photos and pretend like it never happened. I really only think of it when topics like these come up.


What I find absolutely fucking absurd is photographers who wrote their own totally shoddy releases that require me to sign stating that I was not harmed during the shoot in any way, or that I was not coerced or forced into any poses/themes, and that I'm 100% aware and consenting to each photo and it's contents. How the fuck anyone reasonably expects me to sign that BEFORE the shoot happens is beyond me. I can't swear I wasn't coerced into a pose or that I knew someone had zoomed in on my vag when I thought I was doing full body art nudes if I only just walked in the door and haven't stepped foot in front of the camera yet. People are idiots

Those aren't normal releases though Laura and those aren't normal photographers.

But maybe that is MM -- IDK what you all have to deal with.

Don't you vibe on those guys before the shoot and by looking at their content?

The F-Stop wrote:
ID, model release all done first! The release is the contract so whatever model n photographer agree on should all be there to avoid missunderstandings later.

Emailing a release prior to the shoot is a good idea, it gives you an oportunity do discuss details so there is no time wasted at the shoot.

A release is not a contract.

DAVISICON wrote:

Bad Advice    .02 cents

Why is it bad advice?
Do ya'll realize that the model signing away alllll rights to the photos
Good shots/bad shots/ porn shots
BEFORE the shots are even taken
Like, what?
I have no problems signing a model release, I.D, whatever
As long as its not some blood sacrifice I'm cool
AFTER the shoot, esp if its my first time working with you.
Is it really that big a damn deal?

Jupiter Red  wrote:

Aha damn,
I'm really broken up about that.
A usage license agreement..
Heaven help us all

And, you probably have no idea what a usage license agreement is or what it does for you.

Have a nice day.

Laura UnBound wrote:
What I find absolutely fucking absurd is photographers who wrote their own totally shoddy releases that require me to sign stating that I was not harmed during the shoot in any way, or that I was not coerced or forced into any poses/themes, and that I'm 100% aware and consenting to each photo and it's contents. How the fuck anyone reasonably expects me to sign that BEFORE the shoot happens is beyond me. I can't swear I wasn't coerced into a pose or that I knew someone had zoomed in on my vag when I thought I was doing full body art nudes if I only just walked in the door and haven't stepped foot in front of the camera yet. People are idiots

You've seen a release like that???

Laura UnBound wrote:
It's shitty that you're expected to sign away your rights to something that doesn't even exist yet, but if your overall screening process works, it won't be a huge problem for you. I think in the hundreds of shoots I've done, I've only been truly disgusted at what someone shot without me knowing/realizing and posted less than five times. And they're not getting a ton of traffic to their pages and I just hid them in my credited photos and pretend like it never happened. I really only think of it when topics like these come up.


What I find absolutely fucking absurd is photographers who wrote their own totally shoddy releases that require me to sign stating that I was not harmed during the shoot in any way, or that I was not coerced or forced into any poses/themes, and that I'm 100% aware and consenting to each photo and it's contents. How the fuck anyone reasonably expects me to sign that BEFORE the shoot happens is beyond me. I can't swear I wasn't coerced into a pose or that I knew someone had zoomed in on my vag when I thought I was doing full body art nudes if I only just walked in the door and haven't stepped foot in front of the camera yet. People are idiots

Thank you!
My lord.
And that sounds hella creepy,
Like what are the photogs planning on shooting, if they need all that?
And those things, (heavens forbid) happen to a model
Then the photog can go skipping away, holding his model release

joeyk wrote:

IMHO, seriously, shame on you. How can you justify having a model giving you release to images as yet untaken?

Simple, it prevents the model from getting to the end of the shoot and then announcing to me.   " I don't want to sign that.".   If you don't have it signed before hand, you become the object of a Ron White book.