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Flakey Photographers
carlyerin wrote: I'm still not exactly sure what the thread is about, but just wanted to point out that in my experience, those who flip burgers don't generate tons of professional respect. They generate minimum wage, barely. Nov 11 06 07:41 pm Link nm... i take it back... wasn't worth the effort carry on Nov 11 06 07:49 pm Link I understand what your saying. And yes it is very rude, wrong, dusrespectful to flake on eather side. but as I've seen there are a lot of models, ect...who have lived and learned and not to be rude, lude or crude. But don't take the job unless you have recived compansation before hand, so this way the so called photographer(s) is comitted to the shoot.(he's not just going to give you money and not call). HE'LL SHOW UP...AND ON TIME. Now on the other hand, when the photographer gets stood up by the model, this isn't all the time, (and I'm talking about the photographers that shoot for a living). and he is depended on that model cause a prostective client is waiting to see what the photographer was so excited to show them, what he can do with this model. That he so eagerly described to this (prospective) client. And now the job is lost or given to another photographer cause the model...just didn't show up! (You say your a photographer, you should have felt this part too, unless all of your shoots were tfp's. then No you wouldn't have felt a loss of cash). Yes he has lost a job. I know cause this has happend to me. Yes, I feel for you. But there are models who do this too. and the repercussions can be just as devstating, loss of money from that job, and future work with a client who could have been a regular sourse of work & income.The bottom line wise up and ask for you money before hand to commite the photographer to that shoot...thats all you need to do and I think you won't find any more flaky photographers. As I said, I didn't say this to be mean or rude its just life. And you have to learn to work with the system. Nov 11 06 08:07 pm Link The one thing that I don't feel like anybody has touched on in this post...is that models lose a lot more than just time when a photographer cancels on them last minute. Specifically...They lose that date of their trip for other bookings. I know Valerie Whitaker gets dozens of shoot offers for each trip she goes on...and she spends countless hours picking and choosing the ones she books. So if someone has the respect to cancel ahead of time than she can still book that date for another photographer. However, when the photographer cancels last minute...there is just no way to reschedule that day. For a high class model who earns $150/hour for her time...cancelling a shoot at the last minute can not only cost her time..travel expenses...hotel...etc...but it can and DOES cost her $500+ that she could have booked with another photographer for that time frame. I've had a lot of models no-show on me as well...so I can see both sides of this...The sad truth is there is no way to control the quality of this internet modeling/photography business...Because 90% of the models online are just dreamers with no real plan of pursuing it...and 90% of the photographers are just old pervs looking for some ass...LOL Nov 11 06 11:32 pm Link I realize this is incredibly long, but I felt I had a lot to say about this particular subject. In any profession, each party must demonstrate a certain level of respect. Professionally, respect is given and personally, a deeper respect can be earned over time...but let's face it, a photographer would get a lousy reputation if he/she demonstrated a lack of professional respect right off the bat; just like a model who disrespects a client/photographer by not showing up would lose out on future work with other photographers who learn of this unacceptable behavior. Respect is a matter of professional courtesy and SHOULD BE GIVEN as a matter of ethical standards. A deeper level of respect can thus be earned, but it must be demonstrated from the beginning that we respect and are considerate of other people besides ourselves. I feel the need to show some support for my girls. I was there in Phoenix when photographers flaked on Carly Erin, Kerri Taylor, Liz Ashley, and even myself. I had to pick up Liz from a no-show and had Carly Erin share a hotel room with us after a no-show for her. Personally, I had three cancellations, two of which were no calls-no shows. Yes, we can do our homework on photographers, but a lot of these guys are amateurs and have no reputations to base decisions upon in the first place. I have had flaky photographers, ranging from amateurs I've never worked with to professional photographers that I've had a working relationship with for years. You can never predict when or where it will happen no matter what anyone says. As far as a rating system, it really won't work...as a system can be abused with false accounts, vindictive people, and parties accusing others of slander whether the account is true or not. As models, we should unite and network within ourselves as a group to find out who the bad apples are when we travel...but yet even then, it can still happen. Asking for a deposit? We'd lose out on more work than anything else. I know several photographers that are wonderful to work with that won't give deposits because they've been burned so badly by flaky models. Photographers who have fronted airfare to have a model no-show are the most common complaints I've heard. A model asking for a deposit is most often labeled as 'difficult' or seen as someone trying to take advantage of and scam a photographer out of their money, because this does happen. A photographer most often won't feel like going to the trouble of sending the money, no matter how easy it is to do online. Do we as models really want to work with these people who don't think we are worth two minutes on PayPal (at the most) to send us a deposit? Probably not, but in all reality in any job, everyone has to do work that we don't necessarily want to do, but we do it because it's our job, and we give it our 100% and hope the best comes of it. On the same hand, I've worked with photographers that didn't want to front a deposit and I've maintained great working relationships with them that last to this day. We must make a living, so we work with those who pay the bills and we maintain our reputation of professionalism the best way we know how. I know in all reality that there are a lot of photographers out there that just see me, or any other model, as just another face....just another addition to their photo collection and they don't see us as a real person. Treat others as you would like to be treated is my motto. Therefore, a certain level of respect and consideration for someone else's time, effort and dedication to the work they love must be maintained. We learn from our mistakes and we don't repeat them with the same person...we just don't work with that person and inform other models of our experience so it doesn't happen to them. We live and we learn, but there are cycles in this industry that are bound to repeat. We can't stop them, but we can do our best to inform others of the events on our end of the camera. If photographers (in the independent modeling industry) never had any feedback from models (and vice versa), where would we be? I see so many posts of photographers complaining about flaky models....and I agree. There are so many flaky models....but I can guarantee you that there are just as many flaky photographers trying to make it and not taking it seriously either. Photographers and models alike should listen to the concerns from both sides to have a general awareness of what goes on in the Internet community. This way, we can all be sure that we aren't on the offending side and learn more about being better for all parties involved. I believe the purpose of this post was to alert the MM community about recent problems for models in AZ that came to a head. I, myself, am furious about the goings-on in AZ, but I have learned from it (as have all of the models mentioned) and we become stronger and wiser, but we certainly don't want it to happen to other models, and we want photographers, who might think cancellations on their part are nothing to take seriously, to know that this is unprofessional and unacceptable. My main point IS: crap is bound to happen and we can't stop it, only try to prevent it to our best ability. We aren't trying to whine or complain, but ask for a solution or the constructive opinions of others.....this is one of the main purposes of the forum. I only offer my opinion as an interpretation from a full-time, Internet model's perspective. I can see the inherently accurate and great points given on either side, and in every industry you will find unprofessional characters. The best thing is for models and photographers to not let it sour your outlook, but rise above the challenges given to you and avoid people that bring negativity and disrespect into your life, professionally and personally. Nov 12 06 12:20 am Link Jesse Leon wrote: Most of the models responding to this thread are full-time models. In reality, if a model only took jobs that paid up front, she would never be able to get enough jobs to make it a full-time career. Nov 12 06 01:02 am Link Wow, this thread grew since my original, lenthly post timed out and never got posted! First a disclosure: I am studioless at the moment. My daughter and I share a bank account. In June, she trusted a very close friend and helped her with a problem not knowing that she was being conned. The bank account went negative by -10,000 dollars. I still have yet to fully recover from that. Lost my studio as a result. Kerri, you know the gritty details. Now my apologies: Liz Ashley: Sorry about the summer, just couldn't make it work. Sorry about the cancellation. Liz and I planned an early morning beach shoot. we planned that once I arrived to pick her up I would call her. I arrived earlier (don't like to be late) called her, then got a message from her cell phone provider that "the person you are calling is not available at this time". I was outside the place she was staying for almost 2 hours, constantly calling her and kept getting the same message. Very frustrating! I am outside, she is inside waiting for me to call never knowing that there is a problem - I wished at that point I knew what apartment she was staying in. I made sure I took a photo of the front of the building to prove I was there LOL! I left after 2 hours and drove home (1 hour north) calling her every few minutes. I got home and called again and she answers, still waiting for me figuring I was just very late. Since it was a beach shoot and I didn't want to do it mid-day, we resceduled. Things happen, even weird things that you never expect like a cell phone provider with problems - never exected that. Models, if a photographer is "late" please call them. I stood outside for almost 2 hours hoping Liz would call. The rescheduled shoot, I canceled at the last minute due to personal reasons. Liz, I always intended to make it up to you - only fair - haven't been able to yet - see disclosure above. Valerie Whitaker: I really look forward to working together. We have discussed it several times but it hasn't happened - refer to the disclosure above - that is the reason it hasn't happened. Now on to the post: I have worked with Liz Ashley before and she is very professional, very down to earth and a pleasure to work with. there is nothing pretentious about her at all. Anyone that thinks so never worked with her. She is definitely one of my favorite models to work with. I worked with Kerri Taylor numerous times, also very professional and unpretentious. Yes, it's true, Kerri is VERY shy, but once comfortable, you realize she is also very down to earth. Because she is shy, she may come across as "aloof" to some people. Kerri has become my favorite model because of her veratility, she can do anything I need. I highly recommend her to anyone. I am also honored that she considers me a friend. Kerri, don't forget the "JACUZZI GUY" at our last shoot LOL! I think he likes you! Aren't you excited? LOL! Flakey photographers and flakey models, not surprised at all. It comes with Internet modeling unfortunately. There are a lot of unprofessional models and photographers out there. Too many model wannabees that think it would be "really really cool" to be a model but are not willing to put the time in. I am sure we all seen some portfolio of a new model with no experience, webcam shots, and they only want paid work - the worst kind of wannabee. Over time, the wannabees get weeded out because they are not serious. In July, I had a paid shoot with 3 wannabees who wanted better photos for their portfolios. My fees were very reasonable and well below what I usually charge. I wanted to cover the cost of renting a studio (see disclosure above) and make a little money. Well, obviously, they never showed (of course they didn't or why would I be writing this!). The end result was that I had to pay for the studio out of my pocket and wound up loosing my Internet connection (see disclosure above). The diffence here with this post is that Carly, Kerri, Liz and Valerie ALL make a full time living with modeling, are not flakes or wannabees. They are professional models doing professional work and deserve the respect and be treated as professionals. I feel a little of their pain after going through it a bit myself but they stand to loose a lot more money on a road trip that I do on a one time no show. Photographers complain about flakey models and maybe it hurts because of lost time or even money but what happened to these models in AZ and/or TX (or anywhere else, it can happen anywhere) has to hurt a lot more. Yes I feel your pain which is why I will be eternally guilty for canceling with Liz at the last minute until I correct it. Liz is absolutely right, Internet modeling has opened new avenues for models. She is also right about Internet models being their own managers, bookers, secretaries, MUAs, hair stylists. They don't have the "protective umbrella" that a land-based agency can provide. they are running their own business. As Kerri pointed out, there are some unscrupulous photographers out there that also try to take advantage of models once they are there because they "want to get paid". Kerri is absolutely right, models have to stand their ground when a photographer tries to "back them into a corner" no matter how much the loss of money may hurt. The first time I booked Liz, she let me know up front that if she doesn't get enough bookings for her trip, it was not going to happen. I fully inderstood where she was coming from with that - she has to cover her expenses. I can go on about flakey models but it serves no useful purpose and is counter-productive. Simple rules: Work with wannabees, expect to get burned. Not all wannabees are flakey - all models started out as "wannabees" and a lot are very serious about modeling but you are taking your chances. Same with photographers. Work with professional models/photographers, expect to get great results because a professional is just that - a professional. A "rating system" for photographers or models, definitely open to abuse. Ask any photographer that posts photos on the various photography websites how "ratings" can be abused and are really meaningless. Sorry about the length, not intentional. Nov 12 06 07:39 am Link Nope- if any of you have used ebay- you know the system works fine. You simply say thumbs up, down, or neautral based on your transaction. Any thumbs down and neutral comment can be rebutted. Will there be vindictive people giving thumbs down- sure. If you look at the person who is giving the negative- that also helps you qualify how accurate that is. I do this on ebay all the time when I see a bad negative feedback. Does a thumbs down stop me from working with someone- nope. Does perhaps the information that a significant percentage of people give them a thumbs down or note a pattern- yup. I have every confidence that if we had an ebay system in here- I would NOT have 100% positive feedback. But I am confident it would be something like 30-50 feedbacks, 98% positive or higher- and every negative would have my rebuttal and links to their portfolios- of which half of those leaving me negative would not even be members or models anymore. Lets do an ebay style feedback system. Again, you cant control the way other people behave- you can only control how you react to them and howyou allow yourself to be impacted by them. This system would give us all a valuable tool- information. In the absense of this system- you only have appearances. Say a photographer is a well known professional- well chances are he is only recruiting here for fun or "creative" projects- so that tells you nothing about how seriously he/ she will take YOUR shoot. Lets say the photographer is an unknown- its really a crapshoot. But an ebay style feedback systems tells the model exactly what she needs- the photographer's reliability when dealing with people in her situation- having met on MM. Maybe the riskier shoots you ask for deposits. But you would have a more scientific way of assigning that risk. If Im a 98% positive model with 50 feedbacks and Im dealing with a new photographer with 2 or less feedbacks- of course Im in a higher risk and maybe its reasonable for me to not go out of pocket (travel expenses, hiring crew, etc)- or vice versa. LETS not sacrifice good for great- we dont need a perfect rating system- we just need a decent one. Ebay works just fine. Nov 12 06 09:37 am Link Jose Luis wrote: I disagree. Ebay works tolerably well, but is far from "just fine". Their rating system is seriously skewed: Nov 12 06 10:12 am Link Jose Luis wrote: I agree in essense with your idea. I don't know much about ebay but I do know some people that have an ebay based business. They have told me that usually you don't get a lot of thumbs down because the purchaser is afraid you may retaliate - not sure if it is true, just relating what was told to me. Nov 12 06 10:16 am Link The jist of both of these "show stoppers" is the lack of a verified transaction- and since there isnt a verified transaction- the ebay system wouldnt fit right. Well- just like any rule on MM- you have guidelines, moderators, and contact a mod system for abuse. Today- I can post tags on anyone's page saying any nonsense I want. Sure there is a potential for abuse- doesnt mean its not still a nice feature. Dont sacrifice good for great people. You can fix this as easy as one rule- just add criteria like: "Feedback is meant to only be left as a response to an actual past shoot or a confirmed shoot scheduled via parties primarily interacting via the Model Mayhem website. For purposes of a MM feedback- a confirmed shoot is both parties setting shoot date confirmed via a MM message." Again, will valid excuses causing someone to have to flake be reported as negative- yup. Does that stop me from working with someone- nope. Unless- they end up having grannys dying every weekend- its the pattern that is more important than the individual feedback. People on ebay know that a 50% negative feedback rating speaks much more about the ebayer than the actual details of the 2 negative feedbacks on the guy with 99% positive. -Jose PS: This site is designed to help people with good intentions network. That is by far my experience- most of the people I have met and worked with on this site were very cool. This tool would reward Good MMers- just like the feedback system on ebay rewards and validates good ebayers. Nov 12 06 11:27 am Link Jose, the Ebay system "works" not as a matter of rules, but of access. People cannot make a feedback post unless a set of criteria is met, and that is machine-verifiable. "Rules" don't do that. Anyone who wants could make a feedback post, which would or would not be within the rules. With a quarter of a million members, is MM going to adjudicate whether or not tags and feedback are within the rules? How many people would it take to do that? Will we have a phalanx of feedback police checking out MM members' email to judge whether or not a shoot was scheduled, or maybe only tentatively scheduled, or not scheduled at all? And any flake who wanted to could simply do the scheduling by phone or email, and thus make themselves ineligible for feedback, even though the transaction was mediated by MM. As an alternative, someone could send a "confirming" MM mail purporting to record a booking when in fact there was no agreed booking. Also, any troll with a vendetta could set up a fake profile, make a fake shoot request, and then turn it into negative feedback. There is very little control here on who people really are, unlike Ebay. Also, should an MM member receive feedback for a shoot mediated by, say, OMP? Why or why not? If not, then it would drive people to use the system with no feedback, if there were a choice - and with the more prominent models, there usually is a choice. Gresham's law applies. If it were allowed, then there would be no way MM staff could verify the booking, even assuming they were willing. Nov 12 06 11:51 am Link So riddle me this, batman.... today what is stopping me from posting inflammatory tags and comments all over your page? Don't I have access to do so? Nov 14 06 09:47 am Link to your 2nd question, the answer is the same as mods require today, screenshots. Nov 14 06 09:50 am Link Jose Luis wrote: Nothing is stopping you. However, I assume you would find yourself banned from the site for harrassing another member. Nov 14 06 02:39 pm Link Mikel Featherston wrote: Which, if he did it from a real account that he cared about, might inhibit him. Or it might cause him to set up a fake account for that purpose. Nov 14 06 04:39 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: True, but he would run the risk of someone discovering the link between the accounts. And, as you have the ability to delete such tags and comments, it would probably not being very satisfying. Nov 14 06 04:49 pm Link I'm sorry to hear @ flaky photogs. I myself have never cancelled a shoot. As a matter of fact I think and prepare for the shoot days, or weeks before the shoot, to plan the right color sweep or location, MUA, etc. And the night before the shoot I rarely sleep thinking about the design, color or composition I'm putting in place the next day! So cancelling a shoot is the last thing on my mind. I only know how professional a model is after working w/her. Then I book her a lot! That's why my port shows many shots of a particular few models, and i compliment them below the image. Nov 14 06 05:04 pm Link I know how you feel. I had a major issue with this, when traveling to NYC and Boston. I had so many people cancel on me, I ended up canceling the rest of my trip, because I could no longer cover my travel expenses. Nov 14 06 06:40 pm Link Kasmia wrote: I worked in the mall, and most mall employees are lucky to make $8.00 / hr. Nov 14 06 06:43 pm Link Well I've been guilty I guess. Though i don't feel particularly bad because the circumstances are vastly different. For one I rarely pay models, just don't have that kind of cash or clients that want that type of work (yet). I generally do wedding photography and i tell models I work with that if a wedding gig comes up on the same date as our shoot I'll take it and give them as much advance notice as possible. You can't expect me to turn town well paid work to hope I get to shoot with a model that shows up. That's like saying *my* kid doesn't deserve new shoes. At least they're not out the pay and I usually give a minimum of a weeks notice. Though there have been the occasional last minute jobs that have come up. Even then i still don't feel bad. The number of times I've "flaked" compared to the number of times I've been flaked on, even if you only count no-call-no-show modles, is miniscule. I'm not worried about my model shoot karma. FWIW I also make it a priority to get models their pictures within 14 days. -James Nov 15 06 01:34 am Link Mikel Featherston wrote: Exactly! Nov 15 06 01:39 am Link TXPhotog wrote: and yet that potential exists today and is largely controlled just fine by the mods- thus proving this is not a showstopper for us to do an ebay style feedback system. Again- when you leave a negative- just like ebay- those are linked- so if that person is a fake profile or all negatives- most people wont give that much attention at all- until such time as a mod can delete it. In the interim, of course- the person could post a response. Nov 15 06 01:41 am Link Jeff Fiore wrote: Nov 16 06 11:24 am Link Robert Warren wrote: kerri taylor wrote: Thank you Bob.... very nice of you to write... Nov 16 06 11:30 am Link Lets all be frank about one thing... The reason photographers are flaky is when they have to pay. Most if not all will be ready and willing to shoot for TFP but paying means quite another thing. Models expecting to make enough to pay rent or car notes, etc on a regular basis from photographers on sites like these are going to be let down. Many can't pay all that much. most won't pay at all. We are mostly hobbyists we make very little from shooting. Its not cool for photographers to offer payment when their budget isn't able to handle it but things happen. Maybe its a unexpected expense. Models if you expect to make consistent money from modeling either sign with a agency or market yourself everywhere. Start a Yahoo fan group, do what it takes. Nov 16 06 11:35 am Link Liz Ashley wrote: Robert Warren wrote: kerri taylor wrote: Thank you Bob.... very nice of you to write... I don't want to turn this thread in to something it wasn't intended to be, but... Nov 16 06 12:30 pm Link carlyerin wrote: Okay... carlyerin wrote: I am well aware of height requirements for models, but thank you anyway for the information. I stand by my assertion that your reference to 5'1" models has no place in your rant about flaky photographers. The 5'1" models have nothing to do with photographers flaking on you. Had you simply stated your commitment to the craft of professional modeling would have been sufficient information for me to agree that it was unprofessional for these photographers to cancel. I do sympathize with you, I really do...I think my reaction would have been very different if that seemingly ego driven section quoted above had been omitted. Nov 16 06 10:39 pm Link I worked with CareLyn and she was great, hope to work with her again hint hint, and her size doesn't show up in pictures, but her long legs do! :-) I think a lot of shorter women have better proportions, like the model today I photographed who was 5'1" from a modeling agency and worked just fine. PS. she was also on time. Nov 17 06 03:01 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: This is NOT true.. I have been doing this full-time for about 4 years now. I make my living from modeling and only modeling. Nov 17 06 11:26 am Link Tony Lawrence wrote: Boy are you ever wrong. I am an amateur and I pay models all the time. I normally pay between $50 to $100 per hour and typically do a 2 hour session with each model. I try and do TFP/CD and / or TFP/CD & 1/2 pay whenever possible to save money. But the truth is, I spend money on my hobby just like anyone else who has a hobby that they love... such as golf? By the way, I also know of quite a few models that DO make their living modeling. Not sure where you got you facts, but they are, unfortunately, incorrect. Nov 17 06 11:39 am Link KM von Seidl wrote: yeah, and because they voted the democrats in-that minimum wage will finally be getting increased, barely. Nov 17 06 12:12 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: Here here. Nov 17 06 12:14 pm Link Flaky photographers? That's just total BS man. Like cmon dude. What was I saying? Oh crap did I have a shoot today? What time is it? Ok one more bong hit and I'm set. What were we talking about? Where the f*ck are the Oreo's? Wow my shirt feels so good. I should write a song. What was I saying? Ok, one more bong hit. Do I have a shoot today? Aw the hell with it, the model probably won't show anyway. You know what tastes good? Chubby Hubby mixed with Chunky Monkey with crushed up peanuts. lol monkey is a funny word...mon...kee. What was I saying? Nov 17 06 12:21 pm Link Kasmia wrote: True that! Stop beating the horse, get a mule. Nov 17 06 12:51 pm Link First off, If I was either shallow minded, or have low self-esteem. I would take severe offence to this: carlyerin wrote: I have a MM page and am a 5'0 claiming to be a model. It doesn't mean I'm an unprofessional flake. Actually I'm a person who claims to model. Nov 17 06 12:53 pm Link Tony Lawrence wrote: If you can't afford a Cadillac, you get a Chevy. Nov 19 06 10:29 am Link Samantha Grace wrote: Ain't that the truth! It always annoyed me when I wrote down $8/hr. as my desired salary on a job application, and they would be like "We're gonna start you out at $7.50." GRRR! Only once have I had a job that paid $8/hr, and that's the highest hourly wage I've had so far. The job that I quit back in April paid $6.15/hr., and when I was hired I thought that maybe I had heard the lady wrong when she said 6.15. I was thinking to myself "$6.50?! Are you kidding me???" I've worked in childcare for a while, and as much as daycares charge the parents (and they still have to pay even when their child is out sick that whole week) and with the job duties involved, you would think they'd pay their employees a little better. Nov 19 06 08:34 pm Link just to prove a point.... Kerri and I traveled to SA this week and stayed with the wonderful Tim Summa- if you know him you are lucky! Anyhow. The original photog that made the phone call (and whom i had worked with in the past, and who'd burned most of us pro girls who've posted on here) said: "I never said I'd PAY YOU!!!!" (meaning me and Kerri) Which of course he did. I could go into detail after detail and nail him to the board, but i won't. he was manipulative enough to coorespond by phone only so that I had no record of the "transaction". Unfortunately the other side of that coin is that i have a throat infection and had to cancel some of my shoots, but have alrady scheduled my "make-up" dates in SA...just to prove that I indeed intended to work. someone pass me the hot tea.... Nov 19 06 11:48 pm Link I can't help coming back to this thread. If you are having a wedding, would you hire a teenage garage band or a professional wedding band? If it is important, you hire a professional. Nov 24 06 06:39 am Link |
I think models are getting the short end of the stick here, due to the law of averages. There are tens of millions of models online...and only hundreds of thousands of photographers. So, although the percentage of flakes may be similar for each profession, we hear about flaky models way more often than we do flaky photographers...
