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Flakey Photographers
I can see having to put a downpayment on a shoot if the models is actually getting on a plane to come to me. I can see that being fair. I would be pretty pissed if I flew half way accross the country just to be stood up. Then again, I'm a guy, so someone's door would be getting busted in. Nov 10 06 02:19 pm Link Video Kraftwerks wrote: You go to the court where the photographer/client is. In many small claims courts you can have someone else with a power of attorney who lives there pursue the case for you. Nov 10 06 02:32 pm Link James Jackson wrote: I have to disagree. Real, top calibre clients typically pay 45-60 days after a shoot, not before. As a single example, Proctor and Gamble requires all models and their agencies to sign an agreement specifying that P&G will not make payment before 60 days. No sign, no shoot. Nov 10 06 02:39 pm Link Hello, I read the following post and found myself in familiar territory.  The thing that the internet has done in modeling is fantastic{giving the opportunity for girls to model globally and without an agency} and detrimental {girls having to be their own booker, often times m.u.a; hair stylist, wardrobe stylist, and travel agent.} When being an internet model you have to understand that you are doing all of the above and then considering expenses to plan a trip. The assumption that all travel accomodations and costs are paid by a photographer is false. We, the models often pay for these costs. After calculating the flight costs, rental car costs, hotel costs, gas costs, food costs, and misc {make-up, wardrobe, etc.} the model would then decide if the bookings cover the payments given by the photog, mags, etc and leave room for profit. The modeling industry is like any other business except the personalized and intimate nature of it is very different than someone going to the dry cleaners asking for the service, and paying them. Nevertheless, I know there are people who stiff others in every business,{perhaps the person never picks up his/her dry cleaning} but I do have to bring up the point that this industry does not get the respect that it deserves by all parties. Meaning that not only photographers or "hobbyists" do not respect it, but also models and m.u.a's who do the very same. Here is the difference, I have noone else working for me. I have on average 30 emails a day I answer personally, in addition to updating websites with new work, and booking shoots, and all the misc. things that you do as a REAL person. I am not in any way saying that photographers do not have this task in life, just stating the obvious. Models are also more vunerable in that we are sharing ourselves and exposing our bodies and souls to the world. Some people will assume we will are much more liberal with our lives and bodies because we do this for a living. What we do is very strange from an outsiders perpective. We go into a studio or location as perfect strangers and shoot images and after the shoot is done we leave, sometimes never seeing one another for more than three hours. We never think about this because we are too close to it. The difference between an agency girl and an internet model is that the agency girl gets the payment in advance and the girl is paid even if the shoot is cancelled. Of course, the agency benefits from this too as most agencies do take 50% of your earnings. I, like many others on the internet make a living modeling full-time. Why should a model be treated differently than any other business? When a photographer cancels, it hurts your budget and can keep you from making money in the end. It is disrespectful and frankly a waste of time. To think that it is acceptable to cancel on a model and not pay her some kind of cancellation fee is ridiculous. Also, these cancellations trickle down through other events in life such as: paying bills, buying neccessities, or even buying all the mundane girly sh** I won't bore you by mentioning. Unfortunately freedom does cost, and the freedom from an agencies barriers of {height, availability, etc etc} does cost you when you are a free-lancer and you do not have a booker fighting to get you paid because it is also in their best interest. However, I do need to mention the clientele at an agency is VERY different than through private shoots. I have learned that some photographers have a pattern of doing this. I have had one photographer cancel on me three times and the last time he asked me to work for him I required pre-payment and he declined. I have had some trouble getting pre-payment from photographers in the past, hince the reason models do not ask for this very often. This is because of the immense lack of respect for models on the internet, and/or other industry professionals. But what can we do to change people? Nothing. It is just our duty to try to make our small businesses {modeling careers} be as efficient and profitable as possible. Maybe that does mean we shoot less and ask for more, require pre-payment, or just frankly charge a non-refundable deposit in advance. However, I know this post will do nothing to change anything in the future... I do hope it would shed some light on the subject from a model's perspective. REMEMBER: Free-lance models run their career as a small business and should be treated accordingly. Sincerely, Liz Ashley Nov 10 06 03:00 pm Link I recently had a model from MM bounce a check and then tell me it's my fault because it's my bank! The good part is the bad apples are rare. Nov 10 06 03:07 pm Link Props Carly!! I was with Carly in Arizona and It broke my heart to see her this upset because she is one of my best friends and I know how hard she works and what a great model she is.. She set up tons of paid shoots and made less than half the money she was supposed to due to an overwhelming # of cancellations, And not one offered her a cancellation fee even though some cancelled just an hour before their scheduled shoot. This is very upsetting for a model..Please understand this is our full time job and this is how we pay for our rent, cars, medical bills, health insurance, etc..so when I book a trip then people blow me off , I get very upset.. This recently happened to me in texas. I had a bunch of shoots booked and almost all of them cancelled last minute AFTER I WAS ALREADY THERE. . and gave me really lame excuses.. One didn't even bother to cancel and just left me waiting around, which totally isn't cool. .. Understand that when models are traveling they rely on a certain # of shoots to make the trip profitable. After all, IF a bunch of people cancel.. You have AIRFARE, RENTAL CAR, GAS, FOOD, EXPENSES, AND HOTEL TO WORRY ABOUT. So a modeling trip may even end up costing you money if you get cancellations.. BUT I do really appreciate the great photographers who do not blow off models. .And I as well have made a ton of sacrifces to do this.. While all my friends are partying, I am always staying home because why? IT's because, I need to shoot early in the morning & .As much as I would like to party , I don't because I am a professional and will not show up to a shoot all tired.. I am NOT one of those girls that will be all hung over at a shoot. The one time in particular stands out when I was traveling that really upset me was this: I booked a shoot with a guy 3 months in advance and eveyrthing was discussed and it was 2 full day shoots ,then all of a sudden after I am already in town , 3 days before our shoot, he decides.. oh I need "open wide leg shots". which I clealry say I DO NOT do.. and when I told him I was not comfortable with this.. He cancelled both days leaving me 2 open days and no money. NOt for anything.. BUT ask models their limitations BEFORE the shoot. Don't have them come all the way across the US to shoot with you, then last minute change the requirements.. It's soo not cool. I honestly think this was done on purpose to put me on the spot because he probably figured I needed the money and would compromise my standards.. but alas anyone who knows me.. knows I'm very strong and I always stand my ground. I would rather be out the money, then do something I am not comfortable with.. Another time was when I went all the way to Richmond, Virginia to do a shoot , which is 5 hrs from me.. then guess what.. the photgrapher didn't even bother to pick up his phone or show up nor email or call me ever to apologize.. *ss. Photographers can be just as flaky as "so called models.. " AND TO ANSWER THIS RESPONSE" "2. Offering a blistering criticism of flaky photographers may have a backlash in terms of who will be willing to pay you for your services in the future. This aspect applies to everyone, in my opinion, photographers, models and stylists. Bursts of vitriol in a public forum can leave a bitter taste in mouth of potential clients, the majority of whom lurk in the background and read, without actively participating. " I undersatnd that people may be offended by what Carly has to say,. but you know what. I applaud girls who have enough courage to speak their mind. It about time somebody did. Nov 10 06 03:27 pm Link Kasmia wrote: I can't move on. Thats why I just bought a gun. Nov 10 06 03:31 pm Link Iris Swope wrote: Quite a large number of the professional photogrpahers I know won't shoot without a deposit. Period. Some of them require the full amount up front. Nov 10 06 03:37 pm Link So Shoot Me! wrote: I was kinda referring to prepaying the model? But wait, I was staying out of this Nov 10 06 03:40 pm Link Learning how to assess who is reliable and trustworthy - with your time or your money - is one of the survival skills of a grown-up. Learn it or your life is going to be one long shriek of frustration. mjr. Nov 10 06 03:48 pm Link I'm so sorry you had to go through this Kerri. You need to have a really big guy go with you so he can break down doors for you  Nov 10 06 03:50 pm Link I think this is going to be another one of those things where it depends on what kind of photography you're talking about and who the parties are who are involved. From what I know, people who do portrait work and weddings in our area usually require something up-front. The deposit, as mentioned in the contract, is forfeited if you cancel the contract after signing it and/or otherwise don't keep your end of the contracted-for bargain. People who are shooting MM models probably pay after the fact, if they pay at all. (Most of the photographers and models I personally know in this area are shooting/posing TFCD. That doesn't mean all are; it just means the ones I know are.) And I would imagine local photographers shooting for businesses or corporations are probably getting paid after the fact. However, I don't really know about that, because I don't know anyone shooting commercially (except, as mentioned, portrait/weddings). Frankly, if anyone paid me for shooting anything, I'd probably have a heart attack. So it's probably just as well that no one pays me.  As for the "model vs. photographer" aspect that sometimes pops up in all this, it's pretty much pointless. It doesn't really matter that much who loses more. We all lose. It's a BadThing(tm) for everyone. And it's not right. It's immoral. The people who do it -- whether they are photographers or models -- should be ashamed of themselves. And I frankly think we, as a community, should make sure they feel that shame. We should remind them that it's shameful behavior. We should tell others that they do it. Shame used to be a really good way to keep communities functioning smoothly. These days, unless something is actually illegal, we all seem to think it's sad -- it's a bummer -- but that's it. It's time to bring back the concept of shame. I know there are some legitimate reasons to miss appointments. I work with buttloads of lawyers. They're always running late because they get hung up in court sitting and twiddling their thumbs for hours waiting for the courts to do what the courts do, waiting for prisoners, etc. When there's a legitimate reason to miss an appointment, people should be understanding. Too often, though, there's no legitimate reason. At best, there's a lame excuse. Sometimes you don't even get the courtesy of hearing the lame excuse. And that's why we need to revive the concept of shame. If shame itself doesn't work, a deservedly bad reputation just might. -- rick Nov 10 06 04:04 pm Link I'd never cancel on you Carly. Heh, well, that's not true.. surely there might be an emergency of some kind. But I don't make appointments until I'm sure I can be there and can afford it (if its a shoot where I am paying the model or have other expenses). I'm sorry you and your friend have had this trouble. Its flaky models that have made me start shooting at least one TFP with them before I try to schedule them for a paid shoot... but that's something I waive for models who are obviously professionals, with numerous credits under their belt, not just one or two lucky breaks. You are a professional, Carly.. so are many of us. We try to make sure we work with models who will be professional and you have the same problem... please just don't paint us all in the Texas area with that broad brush. If I cancel, it will be for a major emergency. And if it were a shoot where I was paying the model, I'd try to either reschedule it or try and give her at least some amount for having set the time aside for me in the first place. Nov 10 06 04:16 pm Link Photography and modeling have exploded in the last few years for many reasons. Whenever an industry expands too quickly you will get un-professional people. I think the rapid expansion lowers the quality of work and also the perceived value. The real money is in selling goods and services to people in this industry, and that is a sign that the market has been flooded. Of course people who act this way exist in all types of work. Nov 10 06 04:35 pm Link Sorry you are going through all this in Texas. Nov 10 06 04:49 pm Link Bill Tracy wrote: Hey Bill, Nov 10 06 05:56 pm Link Iris Swope wrote: Sorry. I get confused easily. Nov 10 06 05:59 pm Link James Jackson wrote: TXPhotog wrote: I'm sorry... I should have been more specific... You and I both know that a freelance model working for a client like proctor and gamble is about as likely as a bowling ball being carried on the wind. Nov 10 06 06:05 pm Link .... I am eating Cool Whip right out of the container with a spoon ! .... Nov 10 06 06:08 pm Link Liz Ashley wrote: No, agency girls do not get payment in advance. Internet models normally get paid at the shoot; agency girls typically wait 45-90 days after the shoot for payment. Some agencies will advance payments to the models after the shoot but before collecting from the client, but they usually charge a percentage for doing that. Liz Ashley wrote: Most talent agencies take 10% to 15% of their talent's earnings. Model agencies typically take 20%. In Europe and the Far East 40% to 50% is common, but not in the US. Nov 10 06 06:34 pm Link HungryEye wrote: Yeah, there is that danger. So to counter it in Carly's case, let me recount a bit of my personal experience with her. Nov 10 06 06:42 pm Link Bob Randall Photography wrote: you are more patient than I, Bob. But then I require 75% up front to book private clients, and still won't book without a pretty serious set of references or a referral I trust. Nov 10 06 08:25 pm Link TXPHOTOG Wrote: No, agency girls do not get payment in advance. Internet models normally get paid at the shoot; agency girls typically wait 45-90 days after the shoot for payment. Some agencies will advance payments to the models after the shoot but before collecting from the client, but they usually charge a percentage for doing that. An agency model may or may not get paid if the shoot is cancelled, depending on the circumstances and the time it is cancelled. Agencies have different booking policies on cancellations. Here, for instance, is a typical agency policy: LOL... My point was that at least the agency models get paid. Most likely they have the agency fighting for them to get their payment... But I was expecting photographers to argue over semantics. Probably the same person that we do this to a model that would write something like this.... The point IS: This is wrong and it shouldn't happen, but as expected you totally missed the point. Sincerely, Liz Ashley Nov 10 06 11:01 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: Nevermind mentioning that I am a professional too. I have been in this industry for almost 6 years now, and should be given the same respect as any other model. No, you chose to attack what I wrote instead of focusing on the point. Nov 10 06 11:06 pm Link Marcus J. Ranum wrote: And to you.... WE are not pyschic.... Nov 10 06 11:14 pm Link in my case i have never flaked on a model but when i did cancel (twice) it was family emergency related. on the other hand i have had many models flake on me. the part i dislike the most is when they don't return calls. it's very rude. before i would get very upset. now i don't care and will never email or call them even if they are trying to get in contact with me again. that to me is more rude. they must think i was born yesterday or something  Nov 11 06 02:02 am Link Liz Ashley wrote: If you are going to "make a point", how about if you make it with correct information, instead of making up things that are false? Perhaps then it would be easier to see your point. Liz Ashley wrote: I said nothing about you. I don't see any obligation to say anything about you. The fact that you choose to enter someone else's thread and say something wrong doesn't create any obligation for me or anyone else to suddenly sing your praises. Liz Ashley wrote: This is just vile. It is also uncalled for, and a personal attack. It says a lot about your personality. NOW I feel justified in making statements about you. I suspect you wouldn't like them. Perhaps it's time to pull in your horns, no? Or would you really rather make this personal? Liz Ashley wrote: Excuse me? I commented on one model that I happen to know well and have worked with several times, who happens to be the OP of this thread, and who happened to have had a negative comment made to her. That does not create any obligation for me to list and comment on every other "professional Internet model" in all of creation. For you to turn nice comments I made about someone else into a complaint because I didn't say anything about you is just self-centered nastiness on your part. Nov 11 06 08:37 am Link CareLyn Anita wrote: I was thinking something similar...maybe the photographers were pretty intimidated (especially if you are popular models) and kept up the act as long as possiblle before getting scared and disappearing like the "girly-men" that they are... Nov 11 06 09:02 am Link carlyerin wrote: So our losing money on expenses is not as important as your losing money? Roflmao....get real. What are your expenses? Clothes you bought at the thrift store for 50 cents a piece? How does your rent money figure into the cost of the assignment? Did you lose it or just not get it?....lol Nov 11 06 09:08 am Link Okay, all the comments are well and good. But how do we solve this if we can? I think frst off round up all the girlie girl photogs and push them off a cliff. I've seen forums where models/photographers would post about their bad experiences. Not sure if this helps to solve the problem. How bout some kind of grading system for photogs/models. Why don't we start some kind of website where we the models and photogs are listed and graded? Don't need anything with a portfolio incorporated in it. Maybe 1 pic a short description of who you are.. Something along the lines of Ebay's rating system. I'd be happy to host if for free. What does everbody think about this? Nov 11 06 11:18 am Link Video Kraftwerks wrote: i think that is definatelyone way to solve this problem. Or at least chip away at it. Nov 11 06 01:03 pm Link Allen Coefield wrote: really? i mean are you completely serious here? This is my only income and so yeah- i do lose rent. Have you even read liz ashley's reply? it states quite clearly the expenses that we put into this. Nov 11 06 01:07 pm Link maybe they should use some cocoa butter or see a dermotologist. I would hate to be a model and have the photogs flakey skin floating all over me... This really does need to be adressed. Nov 11 06 01:08 pm Link I think we should have a Flake Forum or Post...where you can list the people that have flaked on you (maybe by state)...I mean we check refferals right? Nobody is going to refer you to the person the flaked on...just makes sense to me. -troy Nov 11 06 01:09 pm Link My 2 cents here. I would say there is only 1 flaky photographer for every 100 flaky models. Flaky models are a dime a dozen while flaky photographers are pretty rare. Nov 11 06 01:10 pm Link and so just to clarify- my cancellation policy is thus: YOu can either A) pay me a $50 deposit, which protects you from any cancellation fee the day of OR B)Pay my full fee if cancelled on day and and 50% anytime before then. Guess which one the photographers choose. take it or leave it- but I thought I"d put it out there. Nov 11 06 01:14 pm Link TXPhotog wrote: I agree with this. Nov 11 06 01:17 pm Link As far as I know the only models who insist on prepayment are hookers. Nov 11 06 01:20 pm Link MrE Creations wrote: i remember up a bit where someone said it was about assessing who you're working with as being reliable..... Nov 11 06 01:24 pm Link James Jackson: I really don't want this to be taken personally b/c i know it could easily be misconstrued as a personal attack BUT: i've read all your replies and you should just stop talking. Nov 11 06 01:26 pm Link |
