Daniela V wrote:

Because it doesn't help and the flakes don't care.

You think it doesn't piss me off that other girls make it hard for those of us that don't flake?!? Sure it does! It's annoying as hell. But there's NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT.

If I bitched and moaned as much as these "burned" photographers, I'm sure no one would want to work with my whiny-ass.

-D

Girl, you are my hero until I say otherwise!

I'm diggin that brutal honesty!

Merlinpix wrote:
Ah the joys of product photography!

Ah the joys of scenic photography.  Not once has a tree, lake, rock, deer or other scenic view pulled a no show....asked for a release, asked for copyrights, or required a paying escort. It isnt a bad way to make a few dollars also.......life is good.

Allen Coefield wrote:

Ah the joys of scenic photography.  Not once has a tree, lake, rock, deer or other scenic view pulled a no show....asked for a release, asked for copyrights, or required a paying escort. It isnt a bad way to make a few dollars also.......life is good.

Your point is well taken, my friend!

It's been a few million years since The Grand canyon flaked on a shoot...

Daniela V wrote:

This isn't ebay.

If you're going to out someone, make sure he or she knows. There are two sides to every story. Why should we believe the OP at all? It's just a person behind a computer.

This isn't about out someone.  It is about professionalism.  If you are reliable and you take your work seriously, shouldn't you be more noticed?  If I know I will be working with someone who is serious and reliable, I would setup my photo sessino even higher (for better setup).  I don't want to prepare all the stuff and then waiting for a no show up.  That is a waste of time and a waste of resources. 

   If a model or a photographer is reliable and serious about his/her work, the rating wouldn't hurt him/her.  People who are afraid of these ratings are those that usually afraid of something that might hurt them (one that usually not reliable). 

  Just ask yourself this, would you buy something knowing that it isn't reliable?  Or would you rather pay few dollar more to get something that is more reliable?

  You are right that this isn't Ebay.  But the concept of exchange between two parties are the same.  In ebay, you have buyer and seller.  Here, you have Model and photographer.

J Schumacher wrote:
That's the problem. Some people here get so annoyed at each other, not because of working together, but just from their posts.... grudges could lead to false infos. And of course anyone blacklisted will retaliate, 1 for 1.

So if a photographer calls a model a flake, and puts a negative mark on her, she'll obviously do the same, in retaliation/damage control. This forces us to choose who's telling the truth, or maybe both are, from their viewpoints. Regardless, both would end up with blemishes on their profiles.

I think the only thing that would work, (maybe) is a place to put Positive values on them.... (like we do in comments.) This model showed up, on time, worked well, etc. You'd still have a problem with their friends pumping them up, but who knows, it might help.

Actually, there is a better system.  What MM needs is an agreement between model and photographer.  For example: If a photographer and a model agree to setup a date, time, number of people involve, the type of shoot, to for a photo session.  Both the photographer and the model will put those information onto an agreement form (created by MM) so MM would have a record.  If one fail to show up for some reason without any call anything, MM will basically mark this onto that person's profile.  This way, the photographer or model couldn't say any bad things about each other without a good reason.

lotusphoto wrote:
i shot with someone a couple of weeks ago, i sent her some pictures, she didn't reply, i got self conscious, decided she didn't like the pictures, and forgot about using them..

i dont use a picture unless the model likes it.. i'm funny that way

anyways, two days ago she emails me..

"the pictures were great thanks, sorry i didnt get back to you, i was in a car accident.."

glad i didn't get mad..

Of course there are reason why a person didn't reply or show up.  But what if that person consistently doing the "no show up"?

cisstudio wrote:
Good policy, just wish there was some way to be able to help others....maybe that way the photographer/model will think twice about not showing up.  after all, it takes about 20 seconds to call and say they are not showing up.

And even with the phone call, you would still complain that it was a last minute cancelation. You can't win.

Just move on. Word of mouth spreads fast, and eventually, the model will feel the consequences of her lack of work ethic.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:

And even with the phone call, you would still complain that it was a last minute cancelation. You can't win.

Just move on. Word of mouth spreads fast, and eventually, the model will feel the consequences of her lack of work ethic.

Exactly!

Public ridicule won't change anything. They don't care. That's what makes them flakes. they don't care

Daniela V wrote:

Because it doesn't help and the flakes don't care.

You think it doesn't piss me off that other girls make it hard for those of us that don't flake?!? Sure it does! It's annoying as hell. But there's NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT.

If I bitched and moaned as much as these "burned" photographers, I'm sure no one would want to work with my whiny-ass.

-D

amen... i would like to say the op did mention that models could post on no show photog's too.... this was very cool of the op as it's usually just models getting slammed... I have been blown off by two photogs here... no cancellation note or anything...

But what can you do .......some are nuts........ some are flakes

I prefer the nuts to flakes as well...

Chan Studio wrote:
If you are reliable and you take your work seriously, shouldn't you be more noticed?  If I know I will be working with someone who is serious and reliable, I would setup my photo sessino even higher (for better setup).  I don't want to prepare all the stuff and then waiting for a no show up.  That is a waste of time and a waste of resources.

I should be noticed since I'm professional. And you know whose job that is? Mine. I make sure I'm professional. I make sure I have not a single bad reference out there. I make sure that my references are strong, and that they are photographers people know (ie. James Graham, Visual Temptation, Yani, ANYONE with Teaseum Bikini)...and I have two MUA references as well.

Part of my job as a model is to offer the entire package, which includes strong references, and getting myself noticed.

Maybe it's the flakes that need to be examined more....but that topic has also been done to death.

No matter how you look at it, there will always be flakes. You can get over it, or you can bitch and moan and waste your energy.

What's the smarter thing to do?

Daniela V wrote:

I should be noticed since I'm professional. And you know whose job that is? Mine. I make sure I'm professional. I make sure I have not a single bad reference out there. I make sure that my references are strong, and that they are photographers people know (ie. James Graham, Visual Temptation, Yani, ANYONE with Teaseum Bikini)...and I have two MUA references as well.

Part of my job as a model is to offer the entire package, which includes strong references, and getting myself noticed.

Maybe it's the flakes that need to be examined more....but that topic has also been done to death.

No matter how you look at it, there will always be flakes. You can get over it, or you can bitch and moan and waste your energy.

What's the smarter thing to do?

If there is a way to look at the history, wouldn't that be easier for you?  Even in our daily lives, we have credit scores, our driving license, all these things have records of us. However, with the internet, someone could put up a pic and state that he or she is a professional model or a photographer.  When if you do ask for references, he/she definately will give you someone they know well.

cisstudio wrote:
Here I am with a scheduled photo shoot for 6:15pm and it is 6:45pm with no phone call or anything....Why can't models just live up to appointments....It is really the small majority of the models out there that set a bad example for the rest.  But question....Is it wrong to blast the models?  Maybe we should have a separate forums listing all the flaking models and photographers that way we know who is definetly NOT reliable.  What do you think? 

This is just a rant because i'll be off doing something else pretty soon.

CareLyn Anita wrote:
But what can you do .......some are nuts........ some are flakes

I prefer the nuts to flakes as well...

Kinda makes the industry sound like a bowl of cereal...LOL! Nuts, fruits and flakes.

I've built up a thick skin to flakes. Whether you like what you do, or do it because it's your job, this is an industry. Some people are bad business, and you usually learn that the hard way.

I'm not going to say that I don't take it personally when I get stood up for a shoot because I do take it personally. I just learned to get over it quicker through experience.

TXPhotog wrote:
Cue the violins.  Another horse just died.

I'll fetch the stick

Chan Studio wrote:
When if you do ask for references, he/she definately will give you someone they know well.

Not for nothing- but I think it's fairly easy to tell from a port who will flake on you and who will not.

And typically, the ones that won't flake on you, are the ones that you should be paying, and are receiving paying jobs.

Models don't flake. Girls with pictures do.

Image K wrote:
Girl, you are my hero until I say otherwise!

I'm diggin that brutal honesty!

*blush*

thanks

cisstudio wrote:
Good policy, just wish there was some way to be able to help others....maybe that way the photographer/model will think twice about not showing up.  after all, it takes about 20 seconds to call and say they are not showing up.

It's never a good idea to post an accusation of the model here, on your profile, or in any other forum.  By doing so, you are opening yourself & this web site to a lot of grief.  For example:

   >>>  Can you prove she was a no show?
   >>>  Why should we believe you?
   >>>  What recourse does she have?
   >>>  How do we know that you weren't the no-show?
   >>>  What did you do to scare her away?

I'm just saying that you would be presenting only one side of the story & that you are expecting us to take your word for it, without hearing her side.  Those of us with open minds would not necessarily conclude that she was the flake.  So, the question whether she didn't show up wouldn't be resolved by your statement alone, but we will be able to see that you are actively vindictive against people who allegedly flake on you, and that doesn't speak well for your professionalsim.

Now, there are things that you can do.

   >>>  Check references before engaging a model.
   >>>  Talk with other local photographers & share info on the good
           & the bad models.
   >>>  Make sure that the model is appropriately enthused about the
          opportunity to work with you.
   >>>  Make sure the model is happy with the compensation.
   >>>  Communicate your own enthusiasm.
   >>>  Use models with good track records with you for critical projects.
   >>>  Have a Plan B.

Move on.

Chris Macan wrote:

I'll fetch the stick

LMAO

Chan Studio wrote:

Why is it wrong?  When I buy a product, especially electronic, I want to know its reliability, quality and cost and there are ratings for those from Consumer Report, the internet, etc.  Shouldn't model and photographers who are more reliable be noticed more and be rewarded?  Even ebay has ratings on buyers and sellers.

Not the same thing (and I will note that Comsumer Reports often gets sued).

Consumer Reports attempts to measure objectively the properties of the product.

Posting a model-no-show allegation is subjective -- it's only one side of the story, and those of us with open minds would suspend belief without hearing both side.

cisstudio wrote:
Here I am with a scheduled photo shoot for 6:15pm and it is 6:45pm with no phone call or anything....Why can't models just live up to appointments....It is really the small majority of the models out there that set a bad example for the rest.  But question....Is it wrong to blast the models?  Maybe we should have a separate forums listing all the flaking models and photographers that way we know who is definetly NOT reliable.  What do you think?

I don't think a "blast" forum is necessary, but maybe it should be suggested somehow that a rating system be put into place for models and photographers where after you've worked with someone you can rate your experience (kind of like on ebay??) Then you can decide for yourself if they have a low rating wether you wanna take a chance on scheduling a shoot with that person... just a thought!

Daniela V wrote:
If you out her, please post her MM number so I can be sure to tell her your slamming her without her knowledge.

Don't be an ass. Stop whining and complaining. Check your references and find better models. There are tons on here that don't flake.

Assuming his OP was factual (6:15 appt/6:45-not there) and is still the case, why shouldn't he? Unless models who flake start to get a "reputation", they will continue to flake and other models will get the idea it is okay to flake. HOWEVER, if he does out her and she turns up with a good (real good) reason for not showing AND not calling, then a seperate APOLOGY thread should be started. Maybe a new Forum here should be created. With only two possible Titles: FLAKE or APOLOGY.

Flaking has got to stop and Head & Shoulders can't do it alone. It takes every photographer and every model to stop flaking!

Vito wrote:
Assuming his OP was factual (6:15 appt/6:45-not there) and is still the case, why shouldn't he? Unless models who flake start to get a "reputation", they will continue to flake and other models will get the idea it is okay to flake. HOWEVER, if he does out her and she turns up with a good (real good) reason for not showing AND not calling, then a seperate APOLOGY thread should be started. Maybe a new Forum here should be created. With only two possible Titles: FLAKE or APOLOGY.

Flaking has got to stop and Head & Shoulders can't do it alone. It takes every photographer and every model to stop flaking!

Your first statement says it all:

Assuming his OP was factual (6:15 appt/6:45-not there)

How do you know the OP is telling the truth?

Word gets around. And if you're going to flame someone, you better tell them you're doing so just in case you're a liar.

Vito wrote:
Assuming his OP was factual (6:15 appt/6:45-not there) and is still the case...

Stop right there!  Why should we assume that the OP was factual?

Vito wrote:
...  why shouldn't he?

-- The following is not true ---
Hey, aren't you the photographer who said he'd be there on Tuesday but wasn't?  Aren't you the guy who showed up drunk 90 minutes late?  Aren't you the guy who groped me & lifted my wallet when I was changing?  Aren't you the guy who promised me $200 and a full CD & haven't delivered?  And so on...
-- End of the not true stuff --

Think about those statements above.  We have the same amount of evidence about her alleged "no-show" as we do for these not-true accusations I used for illustration.

Suppose she loses work.  She can hold both the photographer & this site liable for the loss of work.  Can the photographer prove his claims?

Nothing good will come from publically posting anything negative.  Nothing.

Vito wrote:
Why shouldn't we? He didn't seem to exaggerate. He wasn't incensed (or he'd have named her in the OP). He feels that this flaking has got to stop and if every one, model and photographer alike keep coddling these flakey models or photographers, it will get worse.

Let me show you this bridge I have for sale...really pretty...lots of lights...incredible view.

Don't be stupid.

I will personally never work with someone that outs someone on a profile for flaking. And I'm not alone on this one.

I don't know the OP from Adam, I don't know that he is telling the truth. You don't either. You're just assuming because you want to bitch and moan.

But I can't hear you over those violins.

Daniela V wrote:
Let me show you this bridge I have for sale...really pretty...lots of lights...incredible view.

Don't be stupid.

I will personally never work with someone that outs someone on a profile for flaking. And I'm not alone on this one.

I don't know the OP from Adam, I don't know that he is telling the truth. You don't either. You're just assuming because you want to bitch and moan.

But I can't hear you over those violins.

No one's refuted his claim yet. And if you won't work for someone who will warn other professionals about someone who most probably waste their time and not show up (and I'm not talking about this particular instance), then that tells me you have no problem with models flaking which is an unprofessional action.

Vito wrote:
No one's refuted his claim yet. And if you won't work for someone who will warn other professionals about someone who most probably waste their time and not show up (and I'm not talking about this particular instance), then that tells me you have no problem with models flaking which an uprofessional action.

No....no one has SUPPORTED it...there's a saying...how does it go? oh yeah....

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

If you're going to out someone, then tell them you're doing so. There are two sides to every story.

And yeah- models can flake all they want. Just leaves more jobs for me.

Go. Flake models flake!!! I can use the money.

cisstudio wrote:
Also, this person could have actually just placed up a profile out of bordome and to waste everyones time.  I am sure that Model Mayhem would be more beneficial if it didn't have these individuals on here.

In the interests of fairness, I think it should be said that photographers should do the same vetting process as models -- don't just book people willy-nilly because they're "hot" -- do your research, ask for and check references from other photographers, try to actually talk to the models [if a model tells you she's "afraid of the phone" take it as a warning sign] to find out what they hope to gain from working with you [if they don't know what they want yet or claim to be doing it "just for fun" lookout!].  By all rights, I should have more trouble with flakes than you [given my chosen genre], but thanks to due dilligence, I can't remember the last time a model flaked on me [that is, didn't show without a legitimate reason].

Also, don't be afraid/ashamed to book more than one model for a given date...especially when working with newbies; what's the worst thing that can happen?  Is there such a thing as having too many people to shoot?  Another photographer in my area has a policy he calls "book three to get one" -- I've never heard him complain about models flaking on him either.  I suppose it's a slightly mean form of psychology, but it probably motivates newbies to show up/work hard when you let them know they're not the "only" person you're interested in.

Image K wrote:
Flaky model...or flaky photographer...

Hmmm...

Coke or Pepsi...

Chockolate or Vanilla...

firing squad or electric chair...

Pepsi, dammit.

Vito wrote:
Why shouldn't we? He didn't seem to exaggerate. He wasn't incensed (or he'd have named her in the OP). He feels that this flaking has got to stop and if every one, model and photographer alike keep coddling these flakey models or photographers, it will get worse.

What, exactly, did he prove?  What evidence did he provide?  How do we know that he showed up on Thursday but he told the model Friday?  What's her side of the story?  Absent her side, why should we believe the OP?  What if the OP treated the model in an insulting manner during the sitting negotiations?

What's to stop the model of accusing the photographer of groping her, robbing her, stiffing her on the compensation, miscommunicating the time & place of the sitting, etc.?  It's clear that the truth isn't a requirement for posting an accusation.  Further, "truth" is relative.

We are being asked pass judgment based on no evidence whatsoever.  Shame on you if you formulate an opinion based on your impression that "he didn't seem to exaggerate".


Think about this:  what exactly do we know?  We don't know anything about what went on between the photographer & the model.  But we do know that the photographer is devoting space on his profile (which should be used to make a good first impression) on attempting to ruin a model's ability to get work.  That doesn't say anything good about the photographer.