This thread was locked on 2011-11-18 23:49:16
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
I've said, I believe her. I said his behavior should be reported. I've said he was wrong. What, I will say is she wasn't raped. If she were at a club and a man reached under her dress.
I don't think he'd be arrested for rape. fuck yeah that is fucking rape.
are you saying that if a woman goes to a night club she better be okay with having some asshole assault her?
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8842
Delphos, Ohio, US
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
fuck yeah that is fucking rape.
are you saying that if a woman goes to a night club she better be okay with having some asshole assault her? No one is saying that. But the law makes a distinction between imposition and rape for good reason. You think someone should get life in prison for losing their heads and grabbing someone's junk? That starts a very, very slippery slope and you know it. If you don't, you scare me.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
fuck yeah that is fucking rape.
are you saying that if a woman goes to a night club she better be okay with having some asshole assault her? It is NOT rape, plain and simple. According to her story he touched her under her dress, since when is that rape?
So far in this thread, The Police have been mentioned, someone even mentioned the DA! You sure you don't want to get Congress involved, how about Amnesty International, maybe the UN, better yet why not just fry the guy because he 'touched her under her dress'!
Wake up people.
Photographer
pullins photography
Posts: 5884
Troy, Michigan, US
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
fuck yeah that is fucking rape.
are you saying that if a woman goes to a night club she better be okay with having some asshole assault her? you might want to check the legal definition
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
The only molestation that's taken place is to my senses in reading such bullshit!
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
In addition the photographer accused by the op for his conduct has probably read this forum so when a police officer(s) visits him in regards to the allegation it won't come as a supprise.
He's had time to prepare and won't be in a panic stuttering and sweating when interviewed by the police.
He'll have time to come up with a feasible explanation in regards to events that took place.
Clothing Designer
CottonCandie
Posts: 6612
San Francisco, California, US
pullins photography wrote:
you might want to check the legal definition "Rape is also a legal term that is defined in Massachusetts by three elements:
Penetration of ANY orifice by ANY object,
Force or threat of force, or
Sexual contact against the will of the victim."
Model
Jennifer R K
Posts: 729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
London Fog wrote:
It is NOT rape, plain and simple. According to her story he touched her under her dress, since when is that rape? She wasn't touched "under the dress", she was nude for a photo shoot and he came up behind her without warning and stuck his hand between her legs.
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5581
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US
London Fog wrote:
The only molestation that's taken place is to my senses in reading such bullshit! Stop reading your own posts then. Granted it isn't rape but it is as most people defined it sexual assault.
you don't think this warrants a police report? If anything to be able to establish a pattern if this guy gets more of these complaints?
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Post hidden on Nov 18, 2011 05:41 pm
Reason: inflammatory
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
Jennifer Toronto wrote:
She wasn't touched "under the dress", she was nude for a photo shoot and he came up behind her without warning and stuck his hand between her legs. Ok, my mistake, but that's her story. We don't know his. I just wonder what the authorities and UN and Sheriff and State Governer and Town Mayor etc will make of it all when they see the type of work she does?
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
DanK Photography wrote:
Stop reading your own posts then. Granted it isn't rape but it is as most people defined it sexual assault.
you don't think this warrants a police report? If anything to be able to establish a pattern if this guy gets more of these complaints? I think it warrants getting a life!
Model
Jennifer R K
Posts: 729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
not that simple.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape
"Rape laws in the United States have been revised over the years, and they vary from state to state." Yes. Most people have been using the term "sexual assault" on this forum because "rape" seems to suggest intercourse, which is inaccurate.
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
London Fog wrote:
Ok, my mistake, but that's her story. We don't know his. I just wonder what the authorities and UN and Sheriff and State Governer and Town Mayor etc will make of it all when they see the type of work she does? if they make a judgment of her based on the type of work she does, it would be wrong of them and very sad.
Photographer
Lars R Peterson
Posts: 1085
Seattle, Washington, US
Rollo David Snook wrote:
I'm 100% sure this particular photographer would not have done this, had this been the first shoot. IF photographers are coming back for second's it should be checked out, that's my opinion anyway. That doesn't mean everyone who wants to re-shoot is dodgy, but people should at least consider what are the reasons for not moving on and for focusing twice on that person. I've seen some portfolios, where the same model is used in several different shoots, it doesn't seem professional to me, clearly comfort zones are being employed and learning is being narrowed. That has got to be one of the most retarded things I have read on the internet in quite some time. Wow.
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8842
Delphos, Ohio, US
London Fog wrote:
I just wonder what the authorities and UN and Sheriff and State Governer and Town Mayor etc will make of it all when they see the type of work she does? OMG, dude... really? Now you are implying that she was asking for it.
You might want to leave this thread before you dig yourself any deeper.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
William Kious wrote:
OMG, dude... really? Now you are implying that she was asking for it.
You might want to leave this thread before you dig yourself any deeper. I don't think that's possible, this thread is already knee deep in horseshit!
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
Jennifer Toronto wrote:
Yes. Most people have been using the term "sexual assault" on this forum because "rape" seems to suggest intercourse, which is inaccurate. it would be inaccurate if one's idea of intercourse is heterosexual penetrative sex, and they also believe that women cannot have sex with other women. that seems pretty uneducated to me, but i am not here to argue language that much. i know it will only make things more complicated and cloud what we are really talking about. i will only point out that someone has already quoted a state rape law under which this situation falls.
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
- Phil H - wrote:
Please don't do this as it will only result in the post being hidden. The best thing to do is contact the MM moderators via CAM and report the matter to them.
Please be sure to include a link to his profile and/or his MM number, along with details of precisely what happened. The Mods will then help you from there.
As Ninja said, you should also strongly consider filing a police report, so at the very least there is an official record of what took place. Phil, I'm curious on how the mods handle allegations (not questioning op's story, but in general) like this? Do you do investigations or what is the normal protocol?
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8842
Delphos, Ohio, US
London Fog wrote:
I don't think that's possible, this thread is already knee deep in horseshit! And you've got the shovel.
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
c_h_r_i_s wrote:
In addition the photographer accused by the op for his conduct has probably read this forum so when a police officer(s) visits him in regards to the allegation it won't come as a supprise.
He's had time to prepare and won't be in a panic stuttering and sweating when interviewed by the police.
He'll have time to come up with a feasable explanation in regards to events that took place. IF the photographer did what has been alleged, then dont you think he started working on lies and discarding any evidence as soon as she ran out on him?
IF he didnt do what has been alleged, then why would he be reading this forum, except by happenstance?
If I were the photographer, I would have contacted an attorney, the police and CAM by this point. (Assuming, as you and London Fog seem to, that I am innocent.)
You cant have it both ways. He cant be innocent AND guilty.
You and London Fog seem to be playing the straddle the fence game.
In his latest post, London Fog has rather bluntly indicated the OP going to the police or the DA is inappropriate.
Why?
The police would have been the first people I discussed this with, if it were me.
Why would anyone advise someone to NOT report criminal conduct to the Police?
BTW, I had the opportunity to deal with the DA regarding an "unwanted person from my past" harassing me. He was most helpful and sent a letter to the person in question. S/he never contacted me again.
So, yes, sometimes the DA can be very helpful.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
William Kious wrote:
And you've got the shovel. So, you believe every word of what she's said, purely based upon her own version, yes? Is the photographer allowed to have his say?
Model
Jennifer R K
Posts: 729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Wynd Mulysa wrote:
it would be inaccurate if one's idea of intercourse is heterosexual penetrative sex, and they also believe that women cannot have sex with other women. that seems pretty uneducated to me, but i am not here to argue language that much. i know it will only make things more complicated and cloud what we are really talking about. i will only point out that someone has already quoted a state rape law under which this situation falls. I personally consider it rape, I've just avoided using the word because people seem to misinterpret it as a very narrow definition. I don't believe rape is at all limited to heterosexual penetrative sex. Anyway, you're right, I don't want to bog down the issue with semantics.
Model
Jennifer R K
Posts: 729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
London Fog wrote:
So, you believe every word of what she's said, purely based upon her own version, yes? Is the photographer allowed to have his say? We're not here trying to debate whether or not she is lying. We're here to discuss what kind of steps people can take in cases of sexual assault. If this is useful to her, then that's good. If she wasn't assaulted, then these steps won't be useful to her. We're not lawyers, we're giving someone advice.
Model
V Laroche
Posts: 2746
Khowmeyn, Markazī, Iran
Crystal Perido wrote:
Come on it was not art nude right?
Bondage, oil and water.............
An occupational hazard maybe? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8842
Delphos, Ohio, US
London Fog wrote:
So, you believe every word of what she's said, purely based upon her own version, yes? Is the photographer allowed to have his say? If you bothered to read my other posts, you will see that I raised my issues with her story.
Of course. Let him step forward and express himself to the court of public opinion here on Model Mayhem...  Everyone so loves debating this shit. Personally, I think ALL threads of this nature should be banned. It's a matter for law enforcement, not a bunch of posturbators on an Internet forum.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
Daeda1us wrote:
IF the photographer did what has been alleged, then dont you think he started working on lies and discarding any evidence as soon as she ran out on him?
IF he didnt do what has been alleged, then why would he be reading this forum, except by happenstance?
If I were the photographer, I would have contacted an attorney, the police and CAM by this point. (Assuming, as you and London Fog seem to, that I am innocent.)
You cant have it both ways. He cant be innocent AND guilty.
You and London Fog seem to be playing the straddle the fence game.
In his latest post, London Fog has rather bluntly indicated the OP going to the police or the DA is inappropriate.
Why?
The police would have been the first people I discussed this with, if it were me.
Why would anyone advise someone to NOT report criminal conduct to the Police?
BTW, I had the opportunity to deal with the DA regarding an "unwanted person from my past" harassing me. He was most helpful and sent a letter to the person in question. S/he never contacted me again.
So, yes, sometimes the DA can be very helpful. No one is implying that he is innocent, yet the general assumption in this thread is that he is definitely guilty. Many have even defined just exactly what he is supposedly guilty of, and all of this without the dude having a chance to have his say...!
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
V Laroche wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you? +100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5665
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Jennifer Toronto wrote:
I personally consider it rape, I've just avoided using the word because people seem to misinterpret it as a very narrow definition. I don't believe rape is at all limited to heterosexual penetrative sex. Anyway, you're right, I don't want to bog down the issue with semantics. That's why Canadian Criminal Code disposed of term rape and replaced it with sexual assault.
We are not to measure by 1/4" increments where did the fingers allegedly go or not go...
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5581
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US
London Fog wrote:
I think it warrants getting a life! I agree you should get one instead of writing your crap here.
Amazing you think what he did is fine and doesn't warrant any action. It doesn't even matter if she is telling the whole truth. Treat it as a hypothetical. We are giving advice based on what information we have.
Model
Wynd Mulysa
Posts: 8619
Berkeley, California, US
MKPhoto wrote:
That's why Canadian Criminal Code disposed of term rape and replaced it with sexual assault.
We are not to measure by 1/4" increments where did the fingers allegedly go or not go... to me it is just language.
i consider these words to mean the same thing.
Photographer
myfotographer
Posts: 3702
Fresno, California, US
Two things to do.
1) report it to your local authorities.
2) CAM it.
I add my - I am sorry this happened to you. You did nothing to deserve it.
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2109
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
London Fog wrote:
So, you believe every word of what she's said, purely based upon her own version, yes? Is the photographer allowed to have his say? STOP TROLLING.
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6985
Fairbanks, Alaska, US
This is as pointless as discussing religion.
At one extreme we have the believers. Faith is fact and details are incidental drivel. There is no rational reason to distinguish between a clumsy botched advance based on a misunderstanding and an intentional premeditated violent rape - it's all sexual assault in the worst degree. There's no need to distinguish between accusation and guilt - they're one and the same, and both are grounds for stripping someone of their rights. There's no possibility that the victim's version of the story is anything other than factual - they're the victim and it's contrary to the laws of nature that they might be wrong, mistaken, confused, or dishonest.
At the other extreme we have the skeptics. From their perspective the details are crucial and facts only exist after independent verification. There's a whole range of possible degrees between a clumsy botched advance based on a misunderstanding and an intentional premeditated violent rape, and they must be clearly distinguished, categorized, and defined before they can be judged. Innocent until proven guilty is an inherent right - accusation and guilt need not be wedded. The rendition of an event given by the victim is a hypothesis to be evaluated and verified, and certainly not an unquestionable rendition of actual events.
Now when we throw those two groups together to debate a claim of molestation, does anyone really expect there will be a resolution?
Model
Inactive K
Posts: 803
Pago Pago, American Samoa, American Samoa
ok, search for state of massachusetts laws on assault, sexual assault, here's some infor about "assault of an EMPLOYEE" which is relevant in this case as she was being employed at the time of the assault... even if it was TF, it was a written/verbal agreement. Consult a lawyer/law enforcement for more details. http://law.onecle.com/massachusetts/265/13D.html "Section 13D. Whoever commits an assault and battery upon any public employee when such person is engaged in the performance of his duties at the time of such assault and battery, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than ninety days nor more than two and one-half years in a house of correction or by a fine of not less than five hundred nor more than five thousand dollars. Here's some Law info on a lawyers website http://www.bhpklaw.com/Sexual-Assault-M … buse.shtml There really shouldn't be any banter about what rape is or isn't on this thread. This thread is not about a rape that did or did not happen, it's about the OP who was fondled, touched, etc inappropriately and without consent by a photographer, and who is asking for help. Let's get back to topic and offer HELP. She resides in the State of Massachusetts. Give her pertinent information, and let her make her decisions. None of us are in a place to determine what the police will say, or not say, regardless of our own experiences. This is about placing the control back in her hands, and giving her support while she is recovering from a traumatic event. Nothing else is necessary here. Dahlia, please don't be discouraged, don't worry about what you or others THINK the police might say, you will never know until you report to them, and if they do nothing, you are no worse off than you are now, in fact it's a win situation for you because you have the strength to report him regardless of the outcome. No one else but you matters right now. Take back your life, and your decisions. Don't worry about tomorrow, focus on the moment you have now. Sending much love your way.
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
London Fog wrote:
No one is implying that he is innocent, yet the general assumption in this thread is that he is definitely guilty. Many have even defined just exactly what he is supposedly guilty of, and all of this without the dude having a chance to have his say...! As William said, I would be glad to hear his side.
Also as William said, one of the most productive things would be to limit or eliminate these type posts, except in the purely hypothetical sense of "what to do if this ever happens to you" vein.
That stated, and taken in conjuction with your latest post, "No one is implying that he is innocent", I am very confused why you would make snide and disparaging remarks regarding advice to report the incident to the authorities?
Most posters to this thread have stated reporting the incident is the appropriate course of action.
Why dont you?
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Daeda1us wrote:
IF the photographer did what has been alleged, then dont you think he started working on lies and discarding any evidence as soon as she ran out on him?
IF he didnt do what has been alleged, then why would he be reading this forum, except by happenstance? Did the op mention in any way that she'd be going to the police at the time of the incident to the photographer ? not till this forum and people prompting the op to go to the police.
Hence if the op goes to the police and he's read the forum he will be prepared.
Why am I and others reading forums in general ? he has just as much right to read forums.
As much as we all sympathise with the op the law works on 'facts' and it will be her word (op) against the photographers.
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5665
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Deleted, points already addressed.
Photographer
Blue Cube Imaging
Posts: 11883
Ashland, Oregon, US
 Moderator Warning! Just a note, please stay on topic.
There are two new occupants in the brig for their trolling in this thread.
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Moderator Warning!
Everyone so loves debating this shit. Personally, I think ALL threads of this nature should be banned. It's a matter for law enforcement, not a bunch of posturbators on an Internet forum.
