Cape Model Studio wrote:
Very sorry to hear what happened. You do not deserve what happened to you and clearly this horrible incedent happened through no fault of your own. You did nothing wrong and could not have foresee his inappropriate actions.

Take care and all of the best.

+1

Report the sick creep!

Dahlia  wrote:
I'm scared to, the guy felt so bad he started crying. I'm probably letting him off too easy by not pressing charges but I can at least warn other models.

Like fucking hell he felt bad... ok, maybe sad that you din't fall for his act.

  I've been through this crap before, and I GUARANTEE there is no way 'letting him off the hook' will do anything but pass the buck for the next lady he tries this on.

You aren't the first, and will hardly be the last.

Dahlia  wrote:
I haven't outed him here as that's not allowed but I have contacted both photographers and models in my area that I know well to warn them about this guy. One model said he's been contacting other models she knows and I told her to tell them to stay away. She actually herself had shot with him but wouldn't let the guy anywhere near her as she said, which to me denotes she felt uneasy about him.

Please call the police.

At this point, by NOT doing so, you are putting others at risk.

I really hate to make it sound like I'm putting any blame on you for anything right now, but going to the police is the only way to even START making this behavior stop.

Jennifer Toronto wrote:

Groping someone's genitals without their consent IS a sexual offense.

Again...  the OP did *NOT* specify that her genitals were involved.  The action alleged (at the least) amounts to assault, but without more information it is a presumption to jump to the conclusion that the alleged assault was a sexual assault.

double_dog wrote:
Again...  the OP did *NOT* specify that her genitals were involved.

Yes she did:

Dahlia  wrote:
he came up behind me (totally unexpectedly and clearly without permission) with oil on his hand and started rubbing "between my legs" with it.

Crystal Perido wrote:

and what is officer gonna say? what my mum used to say : don't play with fire if you don't want to get burnt

Nice. Blame the victim.

No - the officer will have the cognitive ability to distinguish between posing nude and being sexually molested.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
OP, while, I understand how you might feel this thread wasn't the best ideal.   The police and CAM were.   He put his hands on you and he shouldn't have.   You told him to stop and he did.   The police will be sympathetic but this probably would be classified as sexual abuse and not assault.   Wrong or right the police will also consider the context of the shoot and that you were nude.   That's not fair but is human nature.   Keep in mind that any criminal action is a long process.   Should you?   Maybe he's done it before.   The police and States Attorney can review his background if any and even without a arrest a record will be made.

However there are some things you've said that could weaken your case.   The fact that you are concerned about having the photos.   That you had another photographer contact him for you.   In any case you didn't deserve what happened.

+1

This was my line of thinking as well. I wish the Mods would have locked this early and took this private. While having the larger discussion is helpful to the community, something could be stated that could undermine the case for criminal charges being successfully prosecuted.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:

+1

This was my line of thinking as well. I wish the Mods would have locked this early and took this private. While having the larger discussion is helpful to the community, something could be stated that could undermine the case for criminal charges being successfully prosecuted.

Honestly, if they locked and hid this thread, we could start a hypothetical thread, what to do when bad things DO happen.

It sucks to sound like fear-mongering, but while these situations are rare they clearly happen... but I doubt anyone wants to hurt her case.

White Lace Studios wrote:

Nice. Blame the victim.

No - the officer will have the cognitive ability to distinguish between posing nude and being sexually molested.

Not necessarily, the police reaction is a crap shoot, you may get a good detective, you may get a bad one or they may throw you some tactless ex-metermaid to take the report.

That said, if the OP feels that she has been wronged, I strongly suggest that she make the report and that a mod help her out by removing this thread.  There isn't anything particularly damning in it yet, but you don't want anything available to be used against you.

I'm local if you need assistance.

Pictures of Life wrote:
Rules are great. But rules are designed to guide the masses who are generally behaving properly. The site rule about not 'outting' some one should not apply here. The rule is now protecting someone who should not be protected. I appreciate that there are always at least two sides to any story, and he should have a chance to give his side to a moderator. If the moderator decides that his behavior is not in line with this site's standards, HE SHOULD BE OUTED, tarred and feathered, banned for life, and have his name, picture and contact info in a permanent gallery of scumbags. He should NOT be protected by rules meant for the people who behave with respect.
     This site loses credibility by playing the middle of the road on this. Just like the Catholic church protecting pedophiles. This is no different.  This site should not be protecting him, it should be protecting all the models who may encounter him.
      And, pretending to be civil, like his behavior was in acceptable norms, reinforces the idea that the victim has some responsibility. Drop the civility BS. Draw a hard line, and OUT this POS. Don't sweep it under the rug and hide it, put it as the top headline for a week. Make it clear that this site will not aide, or be associated with that kind of behavior.

I've been on MM almost since its birth and I've seen some crazy things and frankly outright lies told by models and photographers.   In one case a now banned model member claimed to have been raped of her mind and body.   Members came to her defense and called the accused photographer a scumbag and worse all until he posted that they had a great time and later they appeared to have had consensual sex.   Had only she been believed it could have been very bad for this man.

The truth is often hard to know.   Another model started a thread claiming a member had lick her naked as% at a nude shoot only to also complain that this man hadn't also provided her the promised TF photos.   I in my usual snarky way asked what her real concern was.   Photos or the unwanted licking.   Later, I took a look at her profile and she had some of his work and had credited him.   So what was the truth?   Lets say this model who I believe ,was angry for other reasons and posted this.   The Mods do as you suggest and ruin a innocent person.   It may not always seem fair to the alleged victim but its a bit of the price we have to pay for fairness.

Ask yourself this.   What if it were you accused and you were innocent.

Dahlia  wrote:
I do a lot of nude/bondage modeling and I've worked with a lot of great people. 99% of the time I bring an escort. Now, there is a photographer I did a non-sexual couples shoot with in the past and the pictures were great and he seemed like a nice guy. We were set to do a sexy school girl shoot today which we did, then we moved on to oil and water nudes (for TF, stupid on my part) and he came up behind me (totally unexpectedly and clearly without permission) with oil on his hand and started rubbing "between my legs" with it. I spun around and was like "whoa dude f*** you", had a civil but tense conversation with him, demanded my photographs still be sent by mail and promptly left. I had another photographer who call him to handle the matter. But goddamn it, i feel so dirty and ashamed and violated. I cried so hard on the ride home, once i stopped and got home i took a shower and changed. I did nothing to deserve this and I'm tempted to release his MM # to models in case he tries to do this to anyone else.

Not everyone will agree, but I strongly recommend for any "body" type of shoot, to ensure a MUA is present. It prevents anything like this happening 99% of the time.

I'm 100% sure this particular photographer would not have done this, had this been the first shoot.  IF photographers are coming back for second's it should be checked out, that's my opinion anyway. That doesn't mean everyone who wants to re-shoot is dodgy, but people should at least consider what are the reasons for not moving on and for focusing twice on that person. I've seen some portfolios, where the same model is used in several different shoots, it doesn't seem professional to me, clearly comfort zones are being employed and learning is being narrowed.

My sympathies to the model and wishes for better luck next time.

Jennifer Toronto wrote:

Abusers have been blaming the victims so long that they hardly need to do it anymore. Victims just blame themselves now.

Agreed.  It's really sad.

Cape Model Studio wrote:

I can't believe I am reading this in year 2011. I thought that this type of thinking was dead and buried a long time ago. Even if she was lying there speed eagle for pussy pics, it does not give the tog the right to touch.

Furthermore, the relationship between the two was one of tog and model which has clear boundaries which the tog clearly overstepped. Occupational hazzard hell no. Pervert yes. To diminish this to occupational hazard is a slap in the face for all responsible and professional photographers.

Regards
Pissed off

Got bad news for you...
* sexual assaults do still happen, and the victims still get blamed.
* women do still experience limits in the workplace that have nothing to do with their actual skills.
* racism still exists.

and so on, and so on...

yes, it's 2011.  Things are better, generally, but there's still plenty of room for improvement in all social areas. 

While there's no way for *us* to know who the victim is in this situation, it is true that victims of assault should be supported & encouraged to prosecute, and predators should be given the negative feedback to stop preying...

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Members came to her defense and called the accused photographer a scumbag and worse all until he posted that they had a great time and later they appeared to have had consensual sex.   Had only she been believed it could have been very bad for this man.

Are you one of those people who believe if she is not screaming "NO" that its still not rape when using coercive tactics/manipulation/situational advantages...
Its a fine line and I'm not aware of her situation, while not a rape TO YOU (if it isn't violent or something)...
Legal parameters include abuse of position... (coaches, teachers... sometimes photographers) Would be interesting to know the facts of her case and how it was interpenetrated in a legal setting.
Yes, some people lie.
Yes, many people tell the truth and other parties try hard to minimize the behavior.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I've been on MM almost since its birth and I've seen some crazy things and frankly outright lies told by models and photographers.   In one case a now banned model member claimed to have been raped of her mind and body.   Members came to her defense and called the accused photographer a scumbag and worse all until he posted that they had a great time and later they appeared to have had consensual sex.   Had only she been believed it could have been very bad for this man.

The truth is often hard to know.   Another model started a thread claiming a member had lick her naked as% at a nude shoot only to also complain that this man hadn't also provided her the promised TF photos.   I in my usual snarky way asked what her real concern was.   Photos or the unwanted licking.   Later, I took a look at her profile and she had some of his work and had credited him.   So what was the truth?   Lets say this model who I believe ,was angry for other reasons and posted this.   The Mods do as you suggest and ruin a innocent person.   It may not always seem fair to the alleged victim but its a bit of the price we have to pay for fairness.

Ask yourself this.   What if it were you accused and you were innocent.

this

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:

Are you one of those people who believe if she is not screaming "NO" that its still not rape when using coercive tactics/manipulation/situational advantages...
Its a fine line and I'm not aware of her situation, while not a rape TO YOU (if it isn't violent or something)...
Legal parameters include abuse of position... (coaches, teachers... sometimes photographers) Would be interesting to know the facts of her case and how it was interpenetrated in a legal setting.
Yes, some people lie.
Yes, many people tell the truth and other parties try hard to minimize the behavior.

She wasn't raped by any legal definition I know of.   He placed his hands on her and removed them when asked too.   Illegal sure.   Sexual assault, no.   How it would be seen in a court.   I don't know but chances are good, fair or not in part because she was nude.   Because she does erotic nudes.   Because she works as a paid model may be a difficult case to prosecute.   Fair or not people tend to be somewhat conservative in America.   When simple nudes can get a women fired from a job...

I've said, I believe her.   I said his behavior should be reported.   I've said he was wrong.   What, I will say is she wasn't raped.   If she were at a club and a man reached under her dress.
I don't think he'd be arrested for rape.   My overall point is none of us were there unless you were.   We have no real ideal what happened.   Before we tar and feather this man just maybe hear from him.

Rollo David Snook wrote:
I'm 100% sure this particular photographer would not have done this, had this been the first shoot.  IF photographers are coming back for second's it should be checked out, that's my opinion anyway. That doesn't mean everyone who wants to re-shoot is dodgy, but people should at least consider what are the reasons for not moving on and for focusing twice on that person. I've seen some portfolios, where the same model is used in several different shoots, it doesn't seem professional to me, clearly comfort zones are being employed and learning is being narrowed.

You can't be serious.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
What, I will say is she wasn't raped.   If she were at a club and a man reached under her dress.
I don't think he'd be arrested for rape.

She wasn't at a club, she was working. And being at a club still doesn't give someone the right to come up behind someone without an invitation, reach under a woman's dress and grope her. If someone did that to me I'd have security hold him until the cops arrived. Uninvited sexual contact is a pretty universal definition of sexual assault.

What would you classify as sexual assault? I'm just curious.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I've said, I believe her.   I said his behavior should be reported.   I've said he was wrong.   What, I will say is she wasn't raped.   If she were at a club and a man reached under her dress.
I don't think he'd be arrested for rape.

No, it would be sexual assault and he would be arrested if the girl was able to identify him. In a city with one of the largest amounts of dancefloor space per capita (a weird fact that I'm not sure is even true) I've heard this happen more than a few times.

The fact that this guy was crying afterwards (if true) tells me he's likely got some serious problems with the ladies, psychological issues, or both.

Jennifer Toronto wrote:

She wasn't at a club, she was working. And being at a club still doesn't give someone the right to come up behind someone without an invitation, reach under a woman's dress and grope her. If someone did that to me I'd have security hold him until the cops arrived. Uninvited sexual contact is a pretty universal definition of sexual assault.

What would you classify as sexual assault? I'm jus t curious.

First of all, I think that if this activity transpired, everyone gets that there's something wrong. However, there are allegations, and there's proof. Right now, all there is, are allegations of something, to which none of us witnessed. To reach a conclusion based upon one side of a story without additional investigation, is premature. Remember what happened with Dominique Strauss-Kahn (sp?) who had allegations dismissed because the facts didn't square up with the allegations?

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
The accused photographer has probably read all the postings inc. the op's and can now prepare his defence.

And that defense would be?

Jennifer Toronto wrote:

She wasn't at a club, she was working. And being at a club still doesn't give someone the right to come up behind someone without an invitation, reach under a woman's dress and grope her. If someone did that to me I'd have security hold him until the cops arrived. Uninvited sexual contact is a pretty universal definition of sexual assault.

What would you classify as sexual assault? I'm just curious.

Bullshit!!!

I'm reading this lying here with some fuckin flu bug but I say bullshit! Jesus Fucking H Christ on a pogo stick! what is it with some people, so many of you have judged the guy and are ready to hang him based upon the post of one person. Tony is right, yes, he may have done something innappropriate, yes it may be sexual assault, but we don't know jack until he has his say.

For fucks sake!

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
The accused photographer has probably read all the postings inc. the op's and can now prepare his defence.

People who take advantage of situations like this KNOW what they are doing, and have an arsenal of completely BS excuses that people who deal with his kind See. Right. Through.

Because we see this shit all the time.

Ordinary people can't, they don't know their asses from the sky and get caught up in the what ifs.

Daeda1us wrote:

And that defense would be?

How many creative get out of the allegation can there be ?

' She asked me to rub the oil on her and then threw a tantrum when I did  '... officer.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

How many creative get out of the allegation can there be ?

' She asked me to rub the oil on her and then threw a tantrum when I did  '... officer.

So, he would lie.
And he would never have considered lying if he had not read this thread.
Really?

Dahlia  wrote:
(for TF, stupid on my part)

Why does this make a difference?

Dahlia  wrote:
had a civil but tense conversation with him, demanded my photographs still be sent by mail and promptly left.

You felt violated and abused, yet you still argued for the sake of the photographs?  Okay.

Dahlia  wrote:
But goddamn it, i feel so dirty and ashamed and violated. I cried so hard on the ride home, once i stopped and got home i took a shower and changed. I did nothing to deserve this and I'm tempted to release his MM # to models in case he tries to do this to anyone else.

Report him to the police.  He probably broke down crying figuring he was going to jail (not because he "felt bad".)  If he "felt bad" about something like this, he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
The accused photographer has probably read all the postings inc. the op's and can now prepare his defence.

doesn't need to...being a defendant doesn't mean you have to prepare a defense, just make sure you are defended.

Dahlia  wrote:
I'm scared to, the guy felt so bad he started crying. I'm probably letting him off too easy by not pressing charges but I can at least warn other models.

hi!

i would suggest contacting models with whom you think he may be interested in working, people in your area or those passing through.  even if his mm profile is terminated he may still try to practice as a photographer.  so you can tell people his name or other things that may identify him.  as long as you do it privately i think it is not against mm policy.

also, please do whatever you need to to feel safe.  i hope you understand that his getting "embarrassed" or "ashamed" about assaulting you is manipulative and does not change the fact that he seriously fucked up and caused harm.  also i hope you will understand that you didn't do anything to welcome this [like accepting TFP or whatever.. that is a normal thing that people do and in no way makes it okay for someone to act predatory, violate, assault, etc.]


edit:
furthermore, the way a person acts when they are experiencing an assault and usually afterward [it takes a while for trauma to be processed] is not always rational.  if you are reading this thread and do not understand this, please try to before making comments about how the OP asked for photographs from the shoot or whatever.

Jennifer Toronto wrote:
She wasn't at a club, she was working. And being at a club still doesn't give someone the right to come up behind someone without an invitation, reach under a woman's dress and grope her. If someone did that to me I'd have security hold him until the cops arrived. Uninvited sexual contact is a pretty universal definition of sexual assault.

What would you classify as sexual assault? I'm just curious.

London Fog wrote:
Bullshit!!!

I'm reading this lying here with some fuckin flu bug but I say bullshit! Jesus Fucking H Christ on a pogo stick! what is it with some people, so many of you have judged the guy and are ready to hang him based upon the post of one person. Tony is right, yes, he may have done something innappropriate, yes it may be sexual assault, but we don't know jack until he has his say.

For fucks sake!

What about my post do you consider bullshit? I wasn't judging the photographer -- I have no idea who he is, and I haven't asked.

If a friend came to me and told me she was sexually assaulted, I wouldn't tell her, "Well, you could be lying. I'd like to hear his side of the story before I recommend calling the police."

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

hi!

i would suggest contacting models with whom you think he may be interested in working, people in your area or those passing through.  even if his mm profile is terminated he may still try to practice as a photographer.  so you can tell people his name or other things that may identify him.  as long as you do it privately i think it is not against mm policy.

also, please do whatever you need to to feel safe.  i hope you understand that his getting "embarrassed" or "ashamed" about assaulting you is manipulative and does not change the fact that he seriously fucked up and caused harm.  also i hope you will understand that you didn't do anything to welcome this [like accepting TFP or whatever.. that is a normal thing that people do and in no way makes it okay for someone to act predatory, violate, assault, etc.]


edit:
furthermore, the way a person acts when they are experiencing an assault and usually afterward [it takes a while for trauma to be processed] is not always rational.  if you are reading this thread and do not understand this, please try to before making comments about how the OP asked for photographs from the shoot or whatever.

Bad advice. Very bad advice.