Image Vermont wrote:
Can we assume that you make no money from what you shoot?
Your work is very good. It would be hard to believe that you have not
made ANY money from your work. That would put your work into the class of "amateur" or " hobbyist", unfortunate since many skilled photographer/artists with years of experience
would fall into this category. Most photographers shoot because they love it, not for the money.

That said, just because YOU are an amateur, do you expect models to also work for free?
Unlike most photographers who do it because they love it, models are mostly in it because of the HOPE of making money from it. Oh, to be sure, many models love being in front of the camera. But the primary incentive seems to be one that involves making money. With modeling being so competitive, most models will not shut the door on tfp/cd work if they can arrange a shoot with a photographer who they like, lives nearby, or offers a look they think they need to promote themselves.

I know of very few industries where people will work for free if they are good at what they do.
Unfortunately for me, I can rarely justify paying top dollar for a skilled and talented model
when I too fall into the "skilled amateur" class of photographers.
I just hope that occasionally some totally fantastic model will consider working with me at a price I can afford, which isn't much. But for me to EXPECT them to give their time and talent away is asking a bit much, don't you think?

1. I am far from being an amateur. Read my portfolio.
2. This is MM. TFCD is common place and serves many purposes.
3.  I get plenty of alented models requesting to shoot with me all day long.that is the least of my worries.

4. My point ws the bait and switch tactics that are very pointless and a waste of time.

5. Im done...

Vance

Sascha wrote:
Just FYI, I've noticed that many "models" (and sometimes stylists and photographers too) on this site don't really know the strict meaning of TFP.  I've read some profiles asking to specify whether a shoot is for paid-TFP or unpaid-TFP, when usually when it's a TFP, no one really gets paid, period... except for maybe tearsheets if it was an unpaid shoot for magazine submission.  I have no idea if those models were being shady or plainly clueless but it might save the frustration if you clarify that this is an UNPAID shoot to begin with aside from mentioning the acronyms TFP.

Thus the time to define taken on my portfolio page and in all e-mails...... I hire for production work only (the client pays me to pay the model)..again..stated in my profile.
as I said...I'm not impressed..Either lack of ability to read..or as you said Sash...Shady..

gavin oneill wrote:
surely with all your contacts u can get people from agencies at the drop of a hat? why put yourself thru this?

Gavin,

All my contacts? I dont recall stating I had contacts of any sort..

My purpose on MM is clearly stated in my portfolio..As for putting myself through anything..????  I think that would be reading to much into what I am saying.

As Sasha stated...many peole do not know what TFP really means, or they are just shady.

I put up with it because I enjoy it. There are simply things we all put up with on MM. Goes with the stomping gound.

I simply vented a bit...which is just nice to do every once in awhile.
With that said, I am nicley booked this week and I am looking forward to shooting and creating.

Vance wrote:

Gavin,

All my contacts? I dont recall stating I had contacts of any sort..

My purpose on MM is clearly stated in my portfolio..As for putting myself through anything..????  I think that would be reading to much into what I am saying.

As Sasha stated...many peole do not know what TFP really means, or they are just shady.

I put up with it because I enjoy it. There are simply things we all put up with on MM. Goes with the stomping gound.

I simply vented a bit...which is just nice to do every once in awhile.
With that said, I am nicley booked this week and I am looking forward to shooting and creating.

r u saying u dont have any contacts from your production company or your years of shooting? building relationships, isnt that in marketing 101? )

my point is also that many people on MM dont know what tfp is, like u just said, so why do u even bother? (i consider 'putting yourself thru something' when u end up doing something that gives u the shits, which this clearly does for you). going thru an agency will give u someone professional to deal with, and no misinterpretations..... surely that was in marketing 101 also? 

enjoy this week

ChristianBehr wrote:
Produce images that models want in their books... and you'll get less bullshit.

says one of the Gods of photography.

Simple serious advice from Christian- listen to him.

-D

Vance wrote:
I put up with it because I enjoy it. There are simply things we all put up with on MM. Goes with the stomping gound.

If u put up with all that crap cuz you enjoy it... why are you ranting? why are you upset ?

See... you are switching gears right here in front of all of us... Im sure you do that to the models.. so now who's the one changing things around ?

Vance wrote:
Now I am all about looking at a good resume. A great body of work, but lease leave the bullish at home.

Lately, I've corresponded with several models who seem really cool at first, then they start to lay on the crap as they lead you into the ."You gotta pay me to shoot realm"

I send an E-mail.. Would love to shoot TFCD with you, drop me a line if interested

Reply.. OMG I love your stuff I would love to work with you.

ME..Awesome..I will branstorm some ideas, see what MUA/Stylist is avil and we will get some thing set up.


Next comes the BAIT and SWITCH..

MODEL: What are you shooting for?

I my head.. DUH..TFCD...

In my e-mail..strictly TFCD, for fun and portfolio.

MODEL...Ok, well I am off to (enter exotic country here..DROP big name here..BLAH BLAH ..then a statement of..Payment priorities and such....etc etc etc..


Is it me or did I just waste a bunch of time for nothing? I think my portfolio is pretty clear, and My e-mals are pretty clear..Do some of these models think we are dumb or what?

Yeah, I admitt I am in a touchy mood this fine day...PMS or the male equivlant....

I think I need a vacation...or sleep..or both..

Im ranting..I should erase this..but then I would be a chicken shit..so I am hitting the NEW THREAD button anyway..

What kind of work are you doing?

If it's hogtied babes, I can see why you don't hit the agencies like the other guys are suggesting.

If it's truly for art, like a possible gallery show or something, stick with art models.

If it's a possiblity of some sort of commercial application, why not just offer up $/hr?   If I had the money, I would gladly pay certain models because I know they could use the money to pay rent or put themsleves through school.


Not you, but I see a number of photographers on this site who practically BRAG about spending $4k and up on gear and then BITCH when they can't get a decent model for free.

ChristianBehr wrote:
Produce images that models want in their books... and you'll get less bullshit.

use the force luke......

Vance wrote:
....

Next comes the BAIT and SWITCH..

MODEL: What are you shooting for?

I my head.. DUH..TFCD...

In my e-mail..strictly TFCD, for fun and portfolio.

...

I don't think it's a Bait and Switch.  I think the model assumes (hopes?) that this might be a paying gig (you haven't said it's not). They reply as potentially interested, then you tell them it's TFCD.  They feel a little let down and you go down on their priority list. You do spell it out on your MM page, but they might not look at that prior to responding.

From their point of view, it might feel like a bait and switch.  I let models know the terms in the first email so they know where I'm at. You do it on your main page, if I were you, I'd do it in your initial contact too.

Curt Burgess wrote:

I don't think it's a Bait and Switch.  I think the model assumes (hopes?) that this might be a paying gig (you haven't said it's not). They reply as potentially interested, then you tell them it's TFCD.  They feel a little let down and you go down on their priority list. You do spell it out on your MM page, but they might not look at that prior to responding.

From their point of view, it might feel like a bait and switch.  I let models know the terms in the first email so they know where I'm at. You do it on your main page, if I were you, I'd do it in your initial contact too.

Curt... Vance stated that in his introduction email to the prospective model that it would be a TFP shoot and to contact him if they were interested. His work is excellent and should be payment enough. His complaint was that they agreed to work TFP and then later started looking for pay.

Vance wrote:
Thanks Winn,

As usual..The thread is about to take another turn and the original points will be over looked.

Sigh..

I could spend the entire day explaining what I have already stated..but that too would get lost..

I've been here long enough not to get caught on that treadmill..

happy shooting..

Vance

Vance.  It's the internet.  And you're dealing with people.  Total recipe for freakdom wrapped in a thin veil of normalcy.


Now, come join us on the pervy escort thread.

Curt Burgess wrote:

I don't think it's a Bait and Switch.  I think the model assumes (hopes?) that this might be a paying gig (you haven't said it's not). They reply as potentially interested, then you tell them it's TFCD.  They feel a little let down and you go down on their priority list. You do spell it out on your MM page, but they might not look at that prior to responding.

From their point of view, it might feel like a bait and switch.  I let models know the terms in the first email so they know where I'm at. You do it on your main page, if I were you, I'd do it in your initial contact too.

What is amazing is what people read into things what they want.  Vance said
he contacts people and asks if they want to shoot TFCD.  He doesn't offer money.
His profile says the same.  Some models try and turn that around into a paid deal.
Thats not cool.  Instead of ok, we understand he gets comments like your work
isn't such that models might want it in their portolio which was said in a round
about way.  Kinda nasty comment too from someone who has sought support from
other photographers in the past.  Again he stated his first contact was for TFCD
not payment.  His profile says the same.  A model sees his work which by the
way is very good and decides if she wants to shoot but its bullshit to try and
make some money.  I don't tend to shoot material that models might often
want in their portfolios so I offer money or I hear from models who might want
to shoot in the somewhat quirky style I have but if someone I offered a Test
shoot who accepted came with that pay me crap.  Shoe leather would meet
behind not in the as in a real sense of a kick in the ass but she/he would get my
point.  It comes down to everybody is on the hustle which I understand but get
your hustle on in a honest and straight forward way.

Vance wrote:
Thanks Winn,

As usual..The thread is about to take another turn and the original points will be over looked.

Sigh..

I could spend the entire day explaining what I have already stated..but that too would get lost..

I've been here long enough not to get caught on that treadmill..

happy shooting..

Vance

Vance, I'm glad you could see where this was headed.  Expect little to no
support from your fellow photographers.  Right or wrong its the people who
should offer a understanding ear but are the first to throw darts.

Vance wrote:
Thus the time to define taken on my portfolio page and in all e-mails...... I hire for production work only (the client pays me to pay the model)..again..stated in my profile.

as I said...I'm not impressed..Either lack of ability to read..or as you said Sash...Shady..

you know they don't read the profile, and 1/2 don't look at your work before replying. i'd say the solution is to let them contact you, but models don't generally review photographer's portfolios searching for the appropriate photographers to shoot with since networking = flirting in the shoutbox and/or boobie avatar and announcements. it seems all you can do is to thoroughly check them out (which in itself is a time consumer) before wasting time on a doomed-to-fail effort to book or, god forbid, shoot.

Daniela V wrote:
Funny how some of the photographers I'm most impressed with are responding to a thread entitled "I'm not impressed."

Ok. It's funny to me.

Shut up. I had no sleep.

Continue.

-D

*giggle... *tucks D in

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Instead of ok, we understand he gets comments like your work
isn't such that models might want it in their portolio which was said in a round
about way.  Kinda nasty comment too from someone who has sought support from
other photographers in the past.

I don't think that comment was mean. If it was phrased like you said it, sure...and maybe that was the intention of the statement. But, coming from a model, it's true.

The photographers that have images in their books that I'm in awe of, are those that I want to work with...and they are those that I'm sure, get less bullshit comparitively speaking.

-D

Daniela V wrote:

I don't think that comment was mean. If it was phrased like you said it, sure...and maybe that was the intention of the statement. But, coming from a model, it's true.

The photographers that have images in their books that I'm in awe of, are those that I want to work with...and they are those that I'm sure, get less bullshit comparitively speaking.

-D

What up, D.  My comment was for some of us who instead of lending a supporting
arm start with the barbs.  Vance has good work and everyone read where he
offered a Test shoot to start with, no payment so to turn that around is crap.
As far as you go.  I have a lot of respect for you but you are not the norm here.
You have a pro view and a keen eye for good work.  Yet for anyone to hint at
Vance's work not being something a model might value is plain mean.  Many of
the models here wouldn't know a Michael Thompson from a very average
Tony Lawrence and it wouldn't matter because these same harpies would have
their hands out AFTER accepting a Test shoot offer.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

What up, D.  My comment was for some of us who instead of lending a supporting
arm start with the barbs.  Vance has good work and everyone read where he
offered a Test shoot to start with, no payment so to turn that around is crap.
As far as you go.  I have a lot of respect for you but you are not the norm here.
You have a pro view and a keen eye for good work.  Yet for anyone to hint at
Vance's work not being something a model might value is plain mean.  Many of
the models here wouldn't know a Michael Thompson from a very average
Tony Lawrence and it wouldn't matter because these same harpies would have
their hands out AFTER accepting a Test shoot offer.

Hey Tony :-) By the way- I want the dress in your avi. Can you send it to me? lol.

I agree with you that people should be supportive, but I think that a lot can be lost in translation when typed out...it's tough to hear tone in the written word. Gosh that sounded poetic....omg I'm so tired lol.

I do think the professionalism level on both sides of the lens is low...as far as the net goes. I also agree, and have stated before, there are plenty of wanna-bes on here, and while they might not know the difference from one photographer to the next, due to their unprofessionalism they will always be asking for their payment, even when they don't deserve it.

And, thanks for the kudos Tony- always appreciated :-)

-D

KM von Seidl wrote:
Not you, but I see a number of photographers on this site who practically BRAG about spending $4k and up on gear and then BITCH when they can't get a decent model for free.

This is something I've never seen touched on here or any other forum.  I've lost count of how many models I've spoken to who are convinced that everly last photographer they'll ever meet is actually a millionaire -- based soley on the constant bragging some [not necessarily all] photographers seem to do about how much $$$ they made last year, how many "big" shoots they have for "major" magazines, how much $$$ they spend on gear [seemingly on a whim], et al.  Right or wrong, a lot of models honestly think that every time a photographer takes a picture, somebody hands us a hundred dollar bill for it...While I can't believe they don't realize how much people like to boast, I can sort of understand why they choose to believe the boasting, as it gives them the impetus to demand payment from everyone they meet [regardeless of whether they're actually worth paying or not].

I make sure any model I encounter knows that working with me is strictly a TFP/collaborative situation -- and that the images they get will probably have no value outside of a niche/art sphere...I don't seem to have any trouble finding people to work with in spite of that.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Can't we listen to each other without being rude?  Can't we offer advice without making fun? can't we say we understand without throwing knives?  Nope, I guess not.

What fun would that be?

....ironically "why can't we be friends" just came on my radio.

And, since I'm exhausted I found that BEYOND funny.

-D