Melvin Moten Jr wrote:

This is something I've never seen touched on here or any other forum.  I've lost count of how many models I've spoken to who are convinced that everly last photographer they'll ever meet is actually a millionaire -- based soley on the constant bragging some [not necessarily all] photographers seem to do about how much $$$ they made last year, how many "big" shoots they have for "major" magazines, how much $$$ they spend on gear [seemingly on a whim], et al.  Right or wrong, a lot of models honestly think that every time a photographer takes a picture, somebody hands us a hundred dollar bill for it...While I can't believe they don't realize how much people like to boast, I can sort of understand why they choose to believe the boasting, as it gives them the impetus to demand payment from everyone they meet [regardeless of whether they're actually worth paying or not].

I make sure any model I encounter knows that working with me is strictly a TFP/collaborative situation -- and that the images they get will probably have no value outside of a niche/art sphere...I don't seem to have any trouble finding people to work with in spite of that.

I work strictly tfp myself.   It's the nature of my work, the people I'm working with, the currently non-commercial niche I work in as well...and I don't have the $$ to pay.

IF I had the kind of money some weekend warriors have (the ones with mcmansions, huge portfolios (stock), historical leica collections), I would pay certain models in order to help them out.

The guys that brag about how wealthy they are, how big a photographer they are (when they aren't), how good they are, do help create mistaken impressions that can be hard to chip away, the same way that all the news stories and internet tales of models being slaughtered affects the need for escorts.

Vance wrote:
The threads are comedy, I cant be shakin..people have tried..but I am a pretty cool cucumber..hard to rattle me.

Sounds like you got your self into a pickle....

C R Photography wrote:

Sounds like you got your self into a pickle....

OK, that was funny...LOL..yes I am laughing as I type L  O  L

gavin oneill wrote:

r u saying u dont have any contacts from your production company or your years of shooting? building relationships, isnt that in marketing 101? )

my point is also that many people on MM dont know what tfp is, like u just said, so why do u even bother? (i consider 'putting yourself thru something' when u end up doing something that gives u the shits, which this clearly does for you). going thru an agency will give u someone professional to deal with, and no misinterpretations..... surely that was in marketing 101 also? 

enjoy this week

Ah yes, a jab from an old thread..nice one...LOL..
However this had nothiong to do with marketing....but you already knew that...

NOTE to self....Send Gavin an e-mail to let him know where my buttons really are.

LOL..

You enjoy the day as well my photgraphic friend..
Keep it rockin..

:-)

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Vance, I'm glad you could see where this was headed.  Expect little to no
support from your fellow photographers.  Right or wrong its the people who
should offer a understanding ear but are the first to throw darts.

One way to avoid models who might be doing bait and switch (if that's what's happening) is to network with likeminded photographers who have models they can reccomend.   There are a few locals in every area I've lived in and we exchange names of sane and tested quality people who are on the up and up.  As in you can communicate effectively like adults and whatever is agreed to is honored.  There's a lot to be said for those qualities whether just dealing in the photographic realm or not.

Vance wrote:

1. I am far from being an amateur. Read my portfolio.
2. This is MM. TFCD is common place and serves many purposes.
3.  I get plenty of alented models requesting to shoot with me all day long.that is the least of my worries.

4. My point ws the bait and switch tactics that are very pointless and a waste of time.

5. Im done...

Vance

Damn Vance,

I think that the poster above you just skipped over all that you had posted. Bait and switch was the first thing that jumped out at me.

I agree, that's not cool at all. And all of the game playing bullshit needs to stop when the model already has a understanding. Sounds more like a escort trying to compromise money for sex.


I'd never thought that I'd get pissed on this site, but after some of the b.s. that I've recently expereinced, I can see why many on here come here and rant. Some people just don't understand how expensive this can be until it happens to them.

gavin oneill wrote:
surely with all your contacts u can get people from agencies at the drop of a hat? why put yourself thru this?

I agree. I had to ask myself too that question lately. I guess I never ponder the question neither because I never had flakes before until these recent weeks.

ChristianBehr wrote:
Produce images that models want in their books... and you'll get less bullshit.

Disagree here. A flake is a flake no matter what. That's not going to resolve the flake issues on here nor is it going to resolve or meet the photographer's goal. his goal may have nothing to do with what the model is looking for. Well, the serious models.

gavin oneill wrote:

r u saying u dont have any contacts from your production company or your years of shooting? building relationships, isnt that in marketing 101? )

my point is also that many people on MM dont know what tfp is, like u just said, so why do u even bother? (i consider 'putting yourself thru something' when u end up doing something that gives u the shits, which this clearly does for you). going thru an agency will give u someone professional to deal with, and no misinterpretations..... surely that was in marketing 101 also? 

enjoy this week

Vance also stated that he makes himself clear in his profile.

KM von Seidl wrote:

One way to avoid models who might be doing bait and switch (if that's what's happening) is to network with likeminded photographers who have models they can reccomend.   There are a few locals in every area I've lived in and we exchange names of sane and tested quality people who are on the up and up.  As in you can communicate effectively like adults and whatever is agreed to is honored.  There's a lot to be said for those qualities whether just dealing in the photographic realm or not.

Some of the 'models' on these sites are more escorts then models and I don't mean the car.  They claim a real intrest in modeling and improving their books
but turn down offers to do so.  They are so focused on the end of the journey
that they never make the trip.  If you agree to do a Test shoot then thats
what it is.  That doesn't mean you try and charge.  By the way, KM I truly
admire you.  You are a island of sanity in a sea of TFP, oops I mean Test shoots.
(we are pros so we offer Test shoots.)  So many people here are so full of shit
I'm surprised they can sit down.  From having millions to buy the latest toys
to being the former president of  a company to producing magazines to
shooting for Elle, Vogue, W and every other major magazine around.
Amazing and so nice that they take time to converse with all the little people.

p51 wrote:
Vance,
You have a legit issue, IMHO.
I actually get a lot of e-mails from models locally who pull the same thing, but THEY initiate the contact, understand I shoot TFP/CD, THEN flak out in the exact way you have had. To me, that makes even less sense...
Unlike you, model work really isn't my main focus, it's something I'm trying to break into right now. I make a VERY nice living with photo and art in other niches, though.
I'm guessing it must be just wishful thinking. They think folks like you and I will see their port, our eyes will pop out and we'll just change everything once they want coin. Otherwise, I can't think of a reason...

See, that's what my point and expereince have been. They contact me, we talk on the phone etc only to flake out and try to cry wolf to others about others not giving them the benefit of the doubt. But they have done it to other photographers.

Daniela V wrote:
Funny how some of the photographers I'm most impressed with are responding to a thread entitled "I'm not impressed."

Ok. It's funny to me.

Shut up. I had no sleep.

Continue.

-D

Well we as humans are naturally curious to see a title when the details/meaning are only revealed after you click on the page.

The title is fitting because many do try to run game.

Vance wrote:
Now I am all about looking at a good resume. A great body of work, but lease leave the bullish at home.

Lately, I've corresponded with several models who seem really cool at first, then they start to lay on the crap as they lead you into the ."You gotta pay me to shoot realm"

I send an E-mail.. Would love to shoot TFCD with you, drop me a line if interested

Reply.. OMG I love your stuff I would love to work with you.

ME..Awesome..I will branstorm some ideas, see what MUA/Stylist is avil and we will get some thing set up.


Next comes the BAIT and SWITCH..

MODEL: What are you shooting for?

I my head.. DUH..TFCD...

In my e-mail..strictly TFCD, for fun and portfolio.

MODEL...Ok, well I am off to (enter exotic country here..DROP big name here..BLAH BLAH ..then a statement of..Payment priorities and such....etc etc etc..


Is it me or did I just waste a bunch of time for nothing? I think my portfolio is pretty clear, and My e-mals are pretty clear..Do some of these models think we are dumb or what?

Yeah, I admitt I am in a touchy mood this fine day...PMS or the male equivlant....

I think I need a vacation...or sleep..or both..

Im ranting..I should erase this..but then I would be a chicken shit..so I am hitting the NEW THREAD button anyway..

your port is awesome and you have worked with one of the finest models coming out of LA, I think any model would consider herself lucky that you would want to shoot with them, it also comes down to respect besides the desire to turn a buck. You have more patience than I. my reply would be more along the lines of, mmmm sorry, I did not mean to waste our time, have a nice day.. by the way I love your avi, that chick rocks

jonathan ledeux wrote:

your port is awesome and you have worked with one of the finest models coming out of LA, I think any model would consider herself lucky that you would want to shoot with them, it also comes down to respect besides the desire to turn a buck. You have more patience than I. my reply would be more along the lines of, mmmm sorry, I did not mean to waste our time, have a nice day.. by the way I love your avi, that chick rocks

Funny, my reply would be no reply. Once they burn me like that, and try to call or email me with a explanation, I don't reply. I move on to the next model. Lawrence has some good advice that he has advised in the past. If the model persue you fort a shoot, then request a deposit that will be returned to them gaurenteeing the shoot. I agree with this.

Catriona wrote:
Vance, I'm pretty sure you didn't start this thread to turn it into an ass-kiss-athon, but personally I think your work is really neat and I would love to TFP with you if I were in the area and you'd have me.

Models have different reasons for modeling. Some see it strictly as a job to make money doing, and if only making money means turning down TFP offers from fantastic photographers and only getting occasional work, so be it. It's a job, and it has to pay cash or it's not worth their time. This is not an inherently bad position to take.

Some see modeling as a way to have a part in creating interesting work, and if only creating interesting work means turning down paid offers from people whose work they do not like, so be it. This is also not an inherently bad position to take.

Some want to just get as many shoots in as possible and whether they get paid or not is beside the point. This was my position when I was younger, but now it's more the second one mentioned. But it's also not a bad position to take.

What do the portfolios of the models you're approaching look like? What do they say in their profiles? The fact that these models are leading you on is crummy, of course, but do they indicate, directly or indirectly, in their profiles that paid work takes priority?

Can you imagine a kiss-ass-marathon? That would be funny.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
Guess it's only fair - I've heard of photographers trying it too.

Yeah, it's happened to me. Whether it's a photographer or a model doing it, it's sheisty--I see no reason to criticize Vance simply for pointing this out.

Vance wrote:
Hey, I am all about the kiss-ass-athon as long as you DONT BRING AN ESCORT..

LOL..

NO, actually I didnt mean for this to be ay kind of KUDOS or ODE to Vance. :-)

I appreciate the compliments, I apologize for not acknowledging te commpliments on the threads. I tend to do that in e-mails mostly. I know that posting athread opens youp to a great many things. I have no problem with that.

It's all talk, or type depending on how you look at it.

I love to shoot, I love to learn..I love to create..many of us models and photgraphers as well as MUA'/Stylist have spend countless hours and money on our craft.

(speaking as a producer)

My money making market is NOT that of shooting models. I can afford to do TFP because it has marketing value. Those images become my selling point. That is how I get photgraphic jobs. A model CAN build an awesome port on TFP, if she or he is smart enough to pick the right photgraphers. We al have something to gain from each other if we only try.

I am blessed to have truly gifted models contacting me. IN return I truly enjoy wroking with newbies. Art is to be shared, even if it is your money maker.

To those that will listen I say...spread the wealth and the kwoledge, it will come back to you 100 fold. Yeah we al have our ego days, we are human...It is the SUM of your being that will determine ow history and your peers look upon you.

Much Love ...

Chip, back to you....

:-)

Mmmmm.....I could go for a black olive and blue cheese pizza!

Dean Solo wrote:
:-)

Mmmmm.....I could go for a black olive and blue cheese pizza!

Hey. Im from Chicago..So I know all about Pizza.

Florida? Send me and adress, I'll have real pizza sent right out..

DOMINOS is NOT pizza!

:-)

Curt Burgess wrote:
I don't think it's a Bait and Switch.  I think the model assumes (hopes?) that this might be a paying gig (you haven't said it's not). They reply as potentially interested, then you tell them it's TFCD.  They feel a little let down and you go down on their priority list. You do spell it out on your MM page, but they might not look at that prior to responding.

From their point of view, it might feel like a bait and switch.  I let models know the terms in the first email so they know where I'm at. You do it on your main page, if I were you, I'd do it in your initial contact too.

Winn Photographics wrote:
Curt... Vance stated that in his introduction email to the prospective model that it would be a TFP shoot and to contact him if they were interested. His work is excellent and should be payment enough. His complaint was that they agreed to work TFP and then later started looking for pay.

So he did... damn, didn't see that somehow. Read all of Vances (rather long) MM page, but didn't notice this.  Sorry about that.  I guess at that point I was as bad as one of the models he's complaining about - except I didn't try and bait or switch him.  I'm usually a more careful reader than that. Ok, add me to the "damn, Vance, you got screwed" group!

Curt Burgess wrote:

Curt Burgess wrote:
I don't think it's a Bait and Switch.  I think the model assumes (hopes?) that this might be a paying gig (you haven't said it's not). They reply as potentially interested, then you tell them it's TFCD.  They feel a little let down and you go down on their priority list. You do spell it out on your MM page, but they might not look at that prior to responding.

From their point of view, it might feel like a bait and switch.  I let models know the terms in the first email so they know where I'm at. You do it on your main page, if I were you, I'd do it in your initial contact too.

So he did... damn, didn't see that somehow. Read all of Vances (rather long) MM page, but didn't notice this.  Sorry about that.  I guess at that point I was as bad as one of the models he's complaining about - except I didn't try and bait or switch him.  I'm usually a more careful reader than that. Ok, add me to the "damn, Vance, you got screwed" group!

Curt, No worries mate..
I just want you to meet my friend.. CHIP..
:-)

Vance wrote:
Curt, No worries mate..
I just want you to meet my friend.. CHIP..
:-)

Well, I think I know your friend CHIP.  And I'm glad to be a friend!

See you over  on the "other" thread!
curt