Jax Digital Pho wrote:
Models ... if you want a professional portfolio try HIRING a professional. If you want a GWC to take your pictures then might I suggest your brother, sister, friend or boyfriend. Invest in your modeling future.

Well, I don't pay women to model for me and by the same token, I don't charge them unless they want a private commission. Instead I work with them on a barter arrangement sort of similar to a TFP, but not quite the same. I guess that makes me a "GWC" by your definition. But having tought photography for many years, having authored a photography textbook which was comercially published, having operated a commercil studio until I retired, having done custom monochrome printing and having had artistic prints exhibited in fiften states in the US, plus in Canada, Italy and Germany, I suppose it makes me a pretty knowledgeable "GWC".  By the way, while doing comercial work the models didn't pay me then either, instead the clients paid both of us. My preference was to make money with models, not from models.

Do you really think most of the ladies posting here and who are without legitimte representation can afford to pay a photographer who may or may not provide the sort of images a legitimate agency would or could use?

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
What I am trying to say is that it "amazes" me that a lot of models don't want to "invest" in their modeling. Nothing more - nothing less. I am not "standing on a soap box" preaching. Just asking others if they've found the same to be true.

Putting it that way, I agree with you, but not as expressed in your OP.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
Daniela,

Then, wouldn't it be nice if - from the PAID jobs that you do get that - you somehow compensate those that have helped you get them? Yes, there are PLENTY of professional photographers that shoot TFP (and don't talk about it). Perhaps - just perhaps - if you did pay some photographers that shoot YOU for your portfolio that you MIGHT get more paid assignments. As I said, "What goes around, comes around".

I'm so nervous about this thread getting heated, but we'll see....

Personally, I have no way of telling how I get certain paid jobs...I just hand over a bunch of photos that are required, or my link. So, with all due respect (seriously), what should I do...ask the person who hired me what the basis was so I could compensate the appropriate photographer that shot that image? What about the MUA that was involved? Should he/she be compensated as well? What about if there was another model in the shot, or a wardrobe stylist? What about them?

Furthermore, without sounding too arrogant, I have no need to pay photographers. Most photographers have no need to pay models. It's not a big deal.

Lastly, I consider myself very professional and make sure that the photographer knows how thankful I am...I make sure that everyone I work with knows how thankful I am...I'm not an ungrateful bitch, and I feel very blessed to work with those that do shoot TFP with me. They don't have to shoot TFP, and I recognize that. I would think that's enough thanks.

-D

Daniela V wrote:
You could hire someone.

Or you could find someone just as good to do TFP with.

There are plenty of successful (published or otherwise) photographers that do TFP...it's just that they don't talk about it.

I'm not going to out the photographers that I do TFP with, or that I am planning TFP with. But I will say this, I've never paid a photographer, and I never plan to. It is not that they don't deserve it, it's just that I cannot afford it, and again, there are plenty doing it for free (not just the GWC's...I don't define GWC as person who does TFP only)

It's not necessary to hire a professional photographer for a professional photographer. It's just necessary to work with one.

-D

No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is.  We buy the equipment, the compact cards, the computers, the programs, the photoshop classes, the printers, the ink, the paper, the CD's, spend the time retouching your images but professional or not most models don't put much value on what we do.  Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again.  Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
I was asked the other day by a model "Why do you only hire models that you've worked with before?". My answer caught her by surprise - I said, "I hire models for assignments that have, in the past, hired me. Having worked with them before I know what they are capable of AND, to be frank, I like to support those that have supported me!"

I'm FLOORED each day by the number of models - aspiring AND professional - that bombard me looking for handouts. Isn't the idea of a portfolio so that YOU (the model) gets hired? If you do get a PAID assignment, do you go back to the photographers that have shot TFP with you and give them a "cut"? I would imagine not. Because, it's through THEIR images and THEIR instruction that you've gotten the images in your portfolio that got you the job.

Models ... if you want a professional portfolio try HIRING a professional. If you want a GWC to take your pictures then might I suggest your brother, sister, friend or boyfriend. Invest in your modeling future.

... just my two cents. Anyone else care to CHIME in?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
I was asked the other day by a model "Why do you only hire models that you've worked with before?". My answer caught her by surprise - I said, "I hire models for assignments that have, in the past, hired me. Having worked with them before I know what they are capable of AND, to be frank, I like to support those that have supported me!"

I'm FLOORED each day by the number of models - aspiring AND professional - that bombard me looking for handouts. Isn't the idea of a portfolio so that YOU (the model) gets hired? If you do get a PAID assignment, do you go back to the photographers that have shot TFP with you and give them a "cut"? I would imagine not. Because, it's through THEIR images and THEIR instruction that you've gotten the images in your portfolio that got you the job.

Models ... if you want a professional portfolio try HIRING a professional. If you want a GWC to take your pictures then might I suggest your brother, sister, friend or boyfriend. Invest in your modeling future.

... just my two cents. Anyone else care to CHIME in?

A BUSINESS relationship ... here on MM ... who'da thunk....

Amy J Jones Photography wrote:

No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is.  We buy the equipment, the compact cards, the computers, the programs, the photoshop classes, the printers, the ink, the paper, the CD's, spend the time retouching your images but professional or not most models don't put much value on what we do.  Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again.  Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly.

I purposefully have my business model set-up to sustain and off-set the cost of my personal work with my retail work.  I do a lot of trade but lately I've focused on equity meaning that if the model has nothing to further my work along then I rather not work with them .  You have to be true to yourself and what your goals are.  For me I can offer the carrot if TFP work because I've accounted for the time and expense that goes into it.

It's funny, I've been encountering somewhat the opposite lately.  I've been able to afford to pay models for shooting with me since it save me the time and expense haveing to fufill TFP arrrangements. But some of the models have an expectation that they will get images from pay shoot then get offended when I set them straight ("sure I can get images to you, that will be $25 per image"); hell I paid you cause I valued your time, now you pay me cause you value the images that we took. 

So, Amy you are right; some do not value the investments that we made to be able to do the work that we do.  While I am a big proponent of TFP shoot when there is equity, part of me also wishes that we just pay for everything: photographer pay models to model and model pay photographers for ther images.  I think models would get the idea real quick that the images have value and photographers would take greater care to deliver a quality product.

[Raises glass of beer] "heres to wishful thinking."

Amy J Jones Photography wrote:
No one seems to get how expensive this job/hobby is.  We buy the equipment, the compact cards, the computers, the programs, the photoshop classes, the printers, the ink, the paper, the CD's, spend the time retouching your images but professional or not most models don't put much value on what we do.  Unless I am doing a test for myself, I will never give away my time and talent again.  Those of you doing TFCD should still be charging for your materials or you will go broke so quickly.

Please don't say "no one". I understand it is expensive. I respect the fact that your equipment costs a ton of money, and everything costs a bundle...no offense, but you're one of hundreds on here that state that same thing over and over and over. It doesn't mean we [models] don't get it. It doesn't even mean we don't respect it. You have every right to charge models, as much as we have every right not to pay you.

If you don't think you're getting something valuable by doing TFP with someone, then charge them. If they don't pay you, find someone who will. But, understand that just because some aren't willing to pay, doesn't mean we don't understand the cost.

You, on the other hand, need to understand the phrase "time is money". I am not about to give up a day where I could be shooting mutually beneficial (which EVERY TFP shoot I do is) to PAY a photographer. When I shoot TFP, I am also throwing away a possible paying assignment, because I am "investing" (as the OP put it) in my modeling career (though he and I differ to the definition of invest). In addition, I print a good deal of my shots...why? Because online is unprofessional and professionals have books. That costs me money, and plenty of it. I also go to the gym 5-6 times a week and take dance classes...hundreds of dollars a month on that, just so I will look good for the pictures that you take. Yes, I want to look good in my pictures, but c'mon, I'm "investing" in my career by making sure I look good and I'm in shape not just for me, but for you as well. What good is glamour photography (I narrow it to the field I specialize in) with a fat, untoned, pimple faced model? How great would your bikini shot look if you were shooting Shamoo going through puberty? No matter how good the photography is, the model aids in the pictures, and it costs money to maintain that look.

Sorry for the long winded post...I'm trying to get this out before MM goes down again.

-D

Mickle Design Werks wrote:

I purposefully have my business model set-up to sustain and off-set the cost of my personal work with my retail work.  I do a lot of trade but lately I've focused on equity meaning that if the model has nothing to further my work along then I rather not work with them .  You have to be true to yourself and what your goals are.  For me I can offer the carrot if TFP work because I've accounted for the time and expense that goes into it.

It's funny, I've been encountering somewhat the opposite lately.  I've been able to afford to pay models for shooting with me since it save me the time and expense haveing to fufill TFP arrrangements. But some of the models have an expectation that they will get images from pay shoot then get offended when I set them straight ("sure I can get images to you, that will be $25 per image"); hell I paid you cause I valued your time, now you pay me cause you value the images that we took. 

So, Amy you are right; some do not value the investments that we made to be able to do the work that we do.  While I am a big proponent of TFP shoot when there is equity, part of me also wishes that we just pay for everything: photographer pay models to model and model pay photographers for ther images.  I think models would get the idea real quick that the images have value and photographers would take greater care to deliver a quality product.

[Raises glass of beer] "heres to wishful thinking."

Here's a man that gets it...
I have a friend who is really talented and only pays models when we wants to
shoot.  His view is that he doesn't want to have to provide models with his
work for them to alter nor he does he want to have to deal with the often silly
and mean comments models make when they don't get their photos ten minutes
after a shoot.  He also feels that he gets to shoot what he wants with no
compromise to what a model feels she needs.  He doesn't allow escorts nor does
he stand for any bull.  Models tend to show for his shoots.  They get paid and
leave.  Several have asked for prints or a cd and he never provides one. 
I admire him I just don't have lots of cash.  Consider after a shoot all the post
processing time spent to provide a model with her images.  Only often times
to have her alter those images in a way that makes your work look poor.
Another byproduct of TFP is what I call the butterface model.  Everything about
her is great but her face.  One thing some of us miss is that most models have
no real need to pay photographers.  Consider a model who lives in
Nomodelinghere, Al.  maybe she's all of 5'2" tall with chipped teeth.  Should she
invest money into a career that will mostly lead nowhere?  Working with a pro
may give her some beautiful images but so what?  I think if you are trying to
make money trying to get modeling hopefulls to pay is a waste of time.  Try
the agency route and companies.  Most of the photographers here will continue
to be disappointed with trying to charge as well as most models.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
Glad to "hear" that everyone is stimulated by my post ... Daniela, I have the utmost RESPECT for you. You are willing to dive into a conversation and approach the subject from the models point of view. You are - A TRUE PROFESSIONAL.

Scott

*blush* thank you Scott :-) I also appreciate the calmness of this post....thus far at least.

-D

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
I'm FLOORED each day by the number of models - aspiring AND professional - that bombard me looking for handouts. Isn't the idea of a portfolio so that YOU (the model) gets hired? If you do get a PAID assignment, do you go back to the photographers that have shot TFP with you and give them a "cut"? I would imagine not. Because, it's through THEIR images and THEIR instruction that you've gotten the images in your portfolio that got you the job.

So, is the opposite also true ?

A photographer's portfolio is designed to get him/her hired . So when said photographer gets hired, are you saying he should go back and give the models in his portfolio that shot with him/her on a TFP basis a 'cut' of the job?
Isn't it through THEIR images in his portfolio that he has been hired ?

Doesn't sound so fair anymore does it?

In reality, the person who needs the images is usually the person who pays for them in one way or another.

I've done both ways and each shoot is a new negotiation, that either side should be able to walk away from without animosity.

rachelrose wrote:
I thought the whole point of doing trade shoots was for everybody to use the images for promotional purposes, I am not making an argument against paying people, as I make my living as a make-up artist. But I think the problem here is that the whole team aspect is gone, eveyrbody brings something equally important to a shoot. i love working on shoots where it is a team effort as opposed to a dictation. Yes, in the end the photographer is the one who owns the copyright, but still everybody is equal everybody is a part of the shared vision.

This only works if everyone thinks they are part of a team but there has to be mutal respect and sense of equity. If any one element of that "team" insists on getting paid then it becomes more mercenary and the others feel that they have to set the terms for the shoot.

I run into this alot with MUAs.  I'll pay for a good MUA but they shouldn't be surprised when I qoute a price right back to them if they want images. They set the tone for the shoot when they insist on getting paid. I'm more than happy to do trade if you need images or shoot what you want if you are willing to pay me.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
I run into this alot with MUAs.  I'll pay for a good MUA but they shouldn't be surprised when I qoute a price right back to them if they want images. They set the tone for the shoot when they insist on getting paid. I'm more than happy to do trade if you need images or shoot what you want if you are willing to pay me.

Rodney has it right.  It has to be equitable for all involved to work.

Melissa Lynnette wrote:
Blah blah blah......again. 

I know this has been covered already in pretty much the same words by Daniela, but maybe if it's repeated you'll realize that your thread is sooooooo old.

If you don't want to do TFP, DON'T.  But please don't try to act like all models who do are lazy and not serious about their careers.  Please don't suggest that all photographers who do are GWC's, since most of them are willing to pay big bucks for boobies.  Just let it do what it do.

what i believe that the OP is referring to, is simply 'investing in your career'.......and how the expectation has developed among alot of models that 'if u dont do it for free, then il go to some other photographer that will'........the fact that so many (almost all) photographers shoot for their own portfolios (call it what u like) is common knowledge, but that doesnt guarantee at all that u will get to work (for free) with the photographers u need to, ones that will get to a new level....u know, the level u dream about!

if this is now the perception of the industry that you also have, you will eventually reach a level where u will no longer excell, grow or develop as a model......because almost all truely good/great/amazing photographers (ie ONES U SHOULD WORK WITH AT SOME POINT IF U REALLY WANT TO ASSESS YOUR POTENTIAL AND FIND OUT WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF INSTEAD OF QUESTIONING YOUR EXISTANCE AS A MODEL FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS) will eventually stop doing tfp because they will either have no time, or u simply will not offer them the kind of model that they need at their new level of success.

i would suggest that when u get to that plateau, you should seek out [and be prepared to PAY someone] good/great/amazing to shoot you, which will probably (hopefully) give u some answers that u are looking for at that point......i say hopefully, because nothing is guaranteed, but paying a bigtime pro to try his best and give u his honest assessment could be the best investment u will make. it will either save u 5 more years of grief, or (as i said) get you to the level u are dreaming of.

that is why the first thing BIG agencies do with a girl they think has any potential, is get a few guys to free test them and guage their future potential, and then they send them to a BIG SHOT photographer to try to take them to the next level.......its the way the industry works....."Just let it do what it do"

gavin oneill wrote:
what i believe that the OP is referring to, is simply 'investing in your career'.......and how the expectation has developed among alot of models that 'if u dont do it for free, then il go to some other photographer that will'........the fact that so many (almost all) photographers shoot for their own portfolios (call it what u like) is common knowledge, but that doesnt guarantee at all that u will get to work (for free) with the photographers u need to, one that will get to a new level....u know, the level u dream about!

if this is now the perception of the industry that you also have, you will eventually reach a level where u will no longer excell, grow or develop as a model......because almost all truely good/great/amazing photographers (ie ONES U SHOULD WORK WITH AT SOME POINT IF U REALLY WANT TO ASSESS YOUR POTENTIAL AND FIND OUT WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF INSTEAD OF QUESTIONING YOUR EXISTANCE AS A MODEL FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS) will eventually stop doing tfp because they will either have no time, or u simply will not offer them the kind of model that they need at their new level of success.

i would suggest that when u get to that plateau, you should seek out [and be prepared to PAY someone] good/great/amazing to shoot you, which will probably (hopefully) give u some answers that u are looking for at that point......i say hopefully, because nothing is guaranteed, but paying a bigtime pro to try his best and give u his honest assessment could be the best investment u will make. it will either save u 5 more years of grief, or (as i said) get you to the level u are dreaming of.

that is why the first thing BIG agencies do with a girl they think has any potential, is get a few guys to free test them and guage their future potential, and then they send them to a BIG SHOT photographer to take them to the next level.......its the way the industry works....."Just let it do what it do"

It's one of my wish list artists on this site...anyway, I digress.

My whole thing is, there are photographers, that I would never dream of asking me to do TFP (and these are names that I won't give up) and they didn't....until my portfolio got to where it is now. Granted, it could always be better- everyone's portfolio could always be better, but I find that those photographers that charge ooodles of money, and are worth every cent, also shoot models TFP to keep their book updated (not all, some), and as long as that happens, I just can't see paying a photographer.

-D

Daniela V wrote:
My whole thing is, there are photographers, that I would never dream of asking me to do TFP (and these are names that I won't give up) and they didn't....until my portfolio got to where it is now. Granted, it could always be better- everyone's portfolio could always be better, but I find that those photographers that charge ooodles of money, and are worth every cent, also shoot models TFP to keep their book updated (not all, some), and as long as that happens, I just can't see paying a photographer.

-D

hey daniela 

yes, but, what are the chances that u will get to do tfp with a photographer u dream of shooting with, when at the level he is probably at, he has all the best agencies in the world throwing amazing girls at him (um.....'for free') every day of the week?
my point is, if u REALLY want to work with someone who is at a level above where u are, (*and if a model has any ambition to try to constantly achieve better and more amazing pictures, she should want to do that*), who didnt have time or need to tfp you, then it makes sense to do whatever it takes to work with them (professionally speaking ofcourse ).....specially if that person could offer you something you dont now have, and perhaps also (more importantly), TEACH u some things that u may not know......?

gavin oneill wrote:

what i believe that the OP is referring to, is simply 'investing in your career'.......and how the expectation has developed among alot of models that 'if u dont do it for free, then il go to some other photographer that will'........the fact that so many (almost all) photographers shoot for their own portfolios (call it what u like) is common knowledge, but that doesnt guarantee at all that u will get to work (for free) with the photographers u need to, ones that will get to a new level....u know, the level u dream about!

if this is now the perception of the industry that you also have, you will eventually reach a level where u will no longer excell, grow or develop as a model......because almost all truely good/great/amazing photographers (ie ONES U SHOULD WORK WITH AT SOME POINT IF U REALLY WANT TO ASSESS YOUR POTENTIAL AND FIND OUT WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF INSTEAD OF QUESTIONING YOUR EXISTANCE AS A MODEL FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS) will eventually stop doing tfp because they will either have no time, or u simply will not offer them the kind of model that they need at their new level of success.

i would suggest that when u get to that plateau, you should seek out [and be prepared to PAY someone] good/great/amazing to shoot you, which will probably (hopefully) give u some answers that u are looking for at that point......i say hopefully, because nothing is guaranteed, but paying a bigtime pro to try his best and give u his honest assessment could be the best investment u will make. it will either save u 5 more years of grief, or (as i said) get you to the level u are dreaming of.

that is why the first thing BIG agencies do with a girl they think has any potential, is get a few guys to free test them and guage their future potential, and then they send them to a BIG SHOT photographer to try to take them to the next level.......its the way the industry works....."Just let it do what it do"

Yes, the industry that I'm not suited for.  Another topic.  That's not what it sounded like the OP was saying, but we are allowed to differ.
Yes, models should pay photographers when the circumstances call for it.  I would never dispute that.  I might one day decide that I'm just that desperate enough to work with a certain no TFP photographer that I would pay for it.  But not today.  Not possible today actually.  I don't understand where you got that my perception of the industry is every photographer will do TFP because every photographer needs it for their port.  I already know that some don't.  I just have yet to run across one that I want to shoot with that doesn't.

gavin oneill wrote:

hey daniela 

yes, but, what are the chances that u will get to do tfp with a photographer u dream of shooting with, when at the level he is probably at, he has all the best agencies in the world throwing amazing girls at him (um.....'for free') every day of the week?
my point is, if u REALLY want to work with someone who is at a level above where u are, (*and if a model has any ambition to try to constantly achieve better and more amazing pictures, she should want to do that*), who didnt have time or need to tfp you, then it makes sense to do whatever it takes to work with them (professionally speaking ofcourse ).....specially if that person could offer you something you dont now have, and perhaps also (more importantly), TEACH u some things that u may not know......?

Hey there ;-)

"photographer I dream of shooting with"....I just shot with someone for a gallery show, someone I would only dream of shooting with. I didn't pay him. He's worth so much, but I didn't pay him. I speak highly of him all the time, so people can probably figure out who I'm talking about. Also, I've shot with some photographers that I've dreampt of shooting with...there will always be ones that I dream of (or that are on my wish list) that I won't be able to shoot with because $$ will be an issue....and yes, if I really really wanted it, I would pay them, or find a way to come up with the $$....but, I guess, right now, that's not where I'm at.

-D

Jose Luis wrote:
The point that is often missed upon the models who say "I dont need to pay photographers" is that:

The guys who are shooting you for free- maybe they should be paying YOU.  Maybe they would pay you if they thought you were at a level very clearly above them.  Maybe the way to get your appearance to a higher level is to work with people who are at a higher level.  Gavin speaks the truth.

No one finds it ironic that the girls who say "I dont need to pay" or the same ones who also say "I cant afford it."  Gee, I wonder why you cant afford it.

One example- - - >  a girl on my portfolio started modeling a few months back- had never done a shoot- she hired me for her 1st shoot.  Im not great- but I can produce images that raised her level from the standard new model- 6 months TFP career in one shoot.  After that one shoot- she started getting paid offers from day one.  I even hired her for a client recently- I paid her more than she paid me.  She now books about 3 paid jobs per week online via MM and OMP.  Some girls never get to this point.  Others take 1-5 years of TFP to get to this point- and then are too old to model or most get frustrated and quit.

Another exampe - - - >  Me- I have been shooting models for just over a year.  The 1st summer- I hired models to shoot with me.  Even up to a few months ago- I would pay expenses to fly girls in to shoot with me for tfp.  I invested in myself.  I now have no shortage of shoots, paid or tfp.  Now- I dont do this full time cuz I have a good dayjob, but- I do book paid jobs regularly- and can pretty much test with anyone I want to.  I know shooters in my area who have been shooting 2 to 10 times as long as I who cant say the same.

The thing is Gavin speaks the truth.  If you want a real upgrade- you pay for it- one way or another.  Of course there are fabulous exceptions- but- most models are better served investing a tiny bit and then making money.

-Jose

Although I have no problems paying for a model I'd really like working with.
Paying to just shoot models with the ideal of improving and getting models
to want to Test with you is recipe for failure.  Jose for example as a very clean
style of shooting which I'm sure would appeal and does to many models.
There are models on this site who really should invest in themselves I see
the same poor quality images from them month after month because they
refuse to pay but what would happen if most paid?  If they are short, heavy
and unattractive will they now become tall, thin and pretty?  I like to sing
but I couldn't carry a tune with a bucket.  Voice lessons would be a waste of
money.  As well as a model with limited appeal paying for mostly useless images.
Don't get me wrong I think some models SHOULD invest in themselves because
they really would have a good chance to do something.  However the reality is
most will never approach a agency, won't ever go to a casting and won't even
be active on this site next year.  There is a model in this thread that says
she won't pay for photos.  Her profile looks good.  She's pretty and has a
great figure.  Would she have better images if she paid?  I don't think so.
Look if you are 5'10", thin and 12 or 13 years old with even teeth and pretty.
Get some solid photos and go for it but if you are 25 with a average figure
and just a ok face and 5'2" then maybe investing lots of money might not
be wise.  If as a photographer you want better models and feel that would
help then pay but if paying a model means you still produce average work
it just means it improve a bit because you have a better looking model.  The
truth is photographers don't improve by shooting better looking models.
That fine model shot on the rail road tracks is still the same crap everyone
else has done a million times.  Your shot may be better because of the models
beauty.  Most photographers that have decent skills would do better to invest
in advertising or try the area modeling agencies.  Just pulling out your check
book to pay a attractive model is a waste UNLESS it is part of a over all
marketing plan.   I'm a believe in having clients like stores or companies.
Trying to get models or photographers to pay each other is mostly a waste
of time.

Jax Digital Pho wrote:
I was asked the other day by a model "Why do you only hire models that you've worked with before?". My answer caught her by surprise - I said, "I hire models for assignments that have, in the past, hired me. Having worked with them before I know what they are capable of AND, to be frank, I like to support those that have supported me!"

I'm FLOORED each day by the number of models - aspiring AND professional - that bombard me looking for handouts. Isn't the idea of a portfolio so that YOU (the model) gets hired? If you do get a PAID assignment, do you go back to the photographers that have shot TFP with you and give them a "cut"? I would imagine not. Because, it's through THEIR images and THEIR instruction that you've gotten the images in your portfolio that got you the job.

Models ... if you want a professional portfolio try HIRING a professional. If you want a GWC to take your pictures then might I suggest your brother, sister, friend or boyfriend. Invest in your modeling future.

... just my two cents. Anyone else care to CHIME in?

I understand completely.

I think a lot of the times, models will get jobs because of the work, "TF" work, they've done with photographers. I'm not talking about JUST paying gigs, but speaking engagements and promotional work. Someone saw their pictures and hired them because of it. You would think that eventually, they would want to pay you your rates for shooting, as well as you paying them on occasion for shooting with you.

It may even itself out in the end, but at least you've both profited monetarily from it.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm a believe in having clients like stores or companies.
Trying to get models or photographers to pay each other is mostly a waste
of time.

Thank you!  Clients should pay, the rest of us should "play" (so to speak).  If and when I need to pay a photographer, I will.  Until then, what for?  I still have bills, I still have basic needs that come before modeling.  If I were 5'10" instead of 5'8", 115lbs instead of 130lbs and 17 instead of 23, then maybe I'd have a reason to expect this to get to the level where I could make lots of cash.  Maybe then I'd feel like it was more worth my while to pay $500 for a photographer, $250 for an MUA and whatever for wardrobe, etc.  Because then I'd be able to expect this to go farther.  However, I'm realistic.  Spending that much, even two or three times isn't reasonable.  I mean I'd be skinnier cuz I couldn't afford food, but I'd also be weak and unable to speak or walk blah blah blah.    There is no resolution to this argument.  You'll always get photographers saying "pay us" and models saying "hell no".  And until all the good photographers stop doing trades, I won't be paying.  Simple as that you know?
Forget this whole "higher level" thing.  Clients pay for the right look, not the right level.

Daniela V wrote:
...I'm not going to out the photographers that I do TFP with, or that I am planning TFP with. But I will say this, I've never paid a photographer, and I never plan to. ....

Let's see .... not all that hard to figure out who you did TFP with ... now is it?

Pretty simple deductive inference will get that for the reader.